In article , John Seager wrote:

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:38:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

"A sailboat participating in the Regata de Amigos race from Galveston
to Veracruz was found capsized 11 miles south of Matagorda Saturday
morning.

Amazing thing is that it didn't sink. I am sure it would have, had
there been much in the way of waves.

Casady

A yacht called Moquini, a Fast 42, lost its keel just south of Madagascar a
couple of years ago. It was found several months later about 500 nm off the
South African coast. Uupside down with a huge hole where the keel had
dropped off, but very much afloat. It had drifted about 800 nm. Sadly, the
crew was never found. http://www.sailr.com/news35939.html

Very sad. We've all heard that you should always step up into a life-raft, and not down... but perhaps they didn't make it into the raft. In this situation, should you tie the raft to the up-turned boat? After all, the raft plus boat is more visible than raft alone. Or do you avoid the boat in case it sinks?

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

In article ,
Justin C wrote:

In article , John Seager wrote:

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:38:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

"A sailboat participating in the Regata de Amigos race from Galveston
to Veracruz was found capsized 11 miles south of Matagorda Saturday
morning.

Amazing thing is that it didn't sink. I am sure it would have, had
there been much in the way of waves.

Casady

A yacht called Moquini, a Fast 42, lost its keel just south of Madagascar a
couple of years ago. It was found several months later about 500 nm off the
South African coast. Uupside down with a huge hole where the keel had
dropped off, but very much afloat. It had drifted about 800 nm. Sadly, the
crew was never found. http://www.sailr.com/news35939.html

Very sad. We've all heard that you should always step up into a life-raft,
and not down... but perhaps they didn't make it into the raft. In this
situation, should you tie the raft to the up-turned boat? After all, the raft
plus boat is more visible than raft alone. Or do you avoid the boat in case
it sinks?

Justin.

It has ALWAYS been my Opinion that you tie the Liferaft to the vessel
with a 50 meter line, and have a Survival Knife secured, and stowed, in
the Raft to cut the line should the vessel sink. There have been MANY
cases, where the vessel floated, after an incident, and was found, but
it took a much longer time to find the Liferaft, with the survivors,
that had drifted away. If no one makes it to the raft, and the vessel
sinks, the raft will go with it, but you could deal with that issue, by
using a Hydrostatic Release on vessel end of the line.

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

On Jun 11, 2:52*pm, Bruce in alaska wrote:
In article ,
*Justin C wrote:





In article , John Seager wrote:

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:38:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

"A sailboat participating in the Regata de Amigos race from Galveston
to Veracruz was found capsized 11 miles south of Matagorda Saturday
morning.

Amazing thing is that it didn't sink. I am sure it would have, had
there been much in the way of waves.

Casady

A yacht called Moquini, a Fast 42, lost its keel just south of Madagascar a
couple of years ago. It was found several months later about 500 nm off the
South African coast. Uupside down with a huge hole where the keel had
dropped off, but very much afloat. It had drifted about 800 nm. Sadly, the
crew was never found.http://www.sailr.com/news35939.html

Very sad. We've all heard that you should always step up into a life-raft,
and not down... but perhaps they didn't make it into the raft. In this
situation, should you tie the raft to the up-turned boat? After all, the raft
plus boat is more visible than raft alone. Or do you avoid the boat in case
it sinks?

* *Justin.

It has ALWAYS been my Opinion that you tie the Liferaft to the vessel
with a 50 meter line, and have a Survival Knife secured, and stowed, in
the Raft to cut the line should the vessel sink. *There have been MANY
cases, where the vessel floated, after an incident, and was found, but
it took a much longer time to find the Liferaft, with the survivors,
that had drifted away. If no one makes it to the raft, and the vessel
sinks, the raft will go with it, but you could deal with that issue, by
using a Hydrostatic Release on vessel end of the line.

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Also IIRC most liferafts have a weak link in the teather that should
remain attached to the vessel, unless it sinks in which case the link
will fail allowing the raft to float free.

Fred

On Jun 11, 11:58*am, wrote:

Also IIRC most liferafts have a weak link in the teather that should
remain attached to the vessel, unless it sinks in which case the link
will fail allowing the raft to float free.

Fred

My Dearest Fred:
Since I know you are vastly more experinced and knowldegable my self I
though I would paste some info for you regarding lifraft Painter/weak
link/hydro static release. I konw you will read this carfully so you
do not shame yourself again.

By the way, as I am not that knowing what is "iirc?"
Bob

"....NVIC 4-8628 MAR 1986NAVIGATION AND VESSEL INSPECTION CIRCULAR NO.
4 86Electronic Version for Distribution Via the World Wide WebSubj:
HYDRAULIC RELEASE UNITS FOR LIFERAFTS, LIFE FLOATS, AND
BUOYANTAPPARATUS, AND ALTERNATE FLOAT-FREE ARRANGEMENTS1.PURPOSE. This
Circular summarizes the requirements for installing, testing, and
maintainingCoast Guard approved hydraulic release units used with
liferafts, life floats, and buoyantapparatus. Alternate float-free
arrangements not requiring hydraulic releases are also discussed.
2.DIRECTIVES AFFECTED. Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular 7-69
is canceled, alongwith Changes 1, 2, and 3.3.DISCUSSION.a.General
Description. Hydraulic release units (also referred to as hydrostatic
release unitsor HRUs) are mechanical devices used as -links in the
lashings securing liferafts, life floatsor buoyant apparatus to the
deck of a vessel. If a vessel sinks before the crew canmanually launch
the equipment, the pressure of the water operating on the
HRUautomatically separates it into two parts. This action, at a depth
of between 5 and 15 feet,disconnects the lashing and permits the
unrestrained liferaft, life float or buoyantapparatus to rise to the
surface by its own buoyancy.b.Alternate Float-Free Arrangements. An
HRU is not necessary for satisfactory float-freeinstallation of an
inflatable liferaft, life float, or buoyant apparatus. Enclosure (1)
showsthe installation of a float-free inflatable liferaft in a crib
made of removable loose-fittingstanchions and bars. The height of the
enclosing stanchions will depend on the location ofthe raft on deck
and its exposure to boarding seas. Enclosure (2) shows a stowage rack
ingimbals for preventing a liferaft from being trapped if the vessel
should capsize as it sinks.Apart from the details of the stowage rack,
its location on deck must receive carefulconsideration, especially on
vessels with low freeboards where green water washing overthe deck
could result in the loss of the raft.c.Navy/Coast Guard HRUs. The
first Coast Guard approved HURs evolved from designsmanufactured to a
U.S. Navy specification, MIL-R-15041. Three of these stamped-
metaldevices received approval, although the "Arrow" unit is no longer
in production. Enclosure(3) includes details of these first HRUs, a
table of their operating features, and details ofthe gripes for
restraining the lifesaving device.(1)The Raftgo Model C is produced by
Raftgo Hendry Co. (formerly C.J. HendryCo.) under Coast Guard approval
numbers 160.062/1/0 through 160.062/1/4.Raftgo Model C releases may be
used to secure a single liferaft, life float, orbuoyant apparatus, or
multiple devices.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
Enclosure (1) to NVIC 4-861(2)The Arrow Model 404 was produced by
Arrow Manufacturing Co. under CoastGuard approvals 160.062/210 and
160.062/2/1. The Switlik Model S-880 isessentially identical to the
Arrow HRU, and is produced by Switlik Parachute Co.under approval
number 160.062/3/0. Although these units are marked for acapacity of
up to 3750 lbs., the gripe spring arrangement will deform under
abuoyant load of around 1000 lbs. Therefore, Arrow and Switlik
releases areapproved for single unit installation only. They must not
be used to secure morethan one liferaft, life float, or buoyant
apparatus, or the buoyant load may deformthe gripe spring
arrangement.d.Painter-Securing HRUs. In Europe, painter-securing HRUs
perform the three-part functionof (1) a full-strength securing point
for the inboard end of the sea painter; (2) anattachment point for the
float-free weak link on the same end of the sea painter; and (3)
arelease point for one end of the strap restraining the lifesaving
equipment. In contrast, theNavy/Coast Guard style devices shown on
Enclosure (3) perform only the third of thesethree functions.
Enclosure (4) shows how the painter-securing HRUs differ from theNavy/
Coast Guard type. Unproved versions of these devices are available in
the U.S. foruninspected vessels, and there may soon be Coast Guard
approved versions that can beused on inspected vessels...."

On Jun 11, 11:58*am, wrote:


Fred


Here is some more 4 ya fred hope you enjoy. there is a test on Friday:

"...Painter-Securing HRUs. In Europe, painter-securing HRUs perform
the three-part functionof (1) a full-strength securing point for the
inboard end of the sea painter; (2) anattachment point for the float-
free weak link on the same end of the sea painter; and (3) arelease
point for one end of the strap restraining the lifesaving equipment.
In contrast, theNavy/Coast Guard style devices shown on Enclosure (3)
perform only the third of thesethree functions. Enclosure (4) shows
how the painter-securing HRUs differ from theNavy/Coast Guard type.
Unproved versions of these devices are available in the U.S.
foruninspected vessels, and there may soon be Coast Guard approved
versions that can beused on inspected vessels.e.Installation of Navy/
Coast Guard HRUs. Enclosure (5) shows the proper installation ofany
one of the three HRUs discussed under paragraph 3-c. Variations of
this arrangementmay be necessary to meet the specific features of
different vessels, but all installationsshould conform to the
following1)An HRU and its gripe assembly require a preload tension
applied by a turnbuckleso that any movement of the HRU plunger, by
either water pressure or manualforce, will separate the two halves of
the device and free the gripe.(2)The correct installation of an HRU
keeps it solely under tension loading with thedevice suspended between
its end fittings. The HRU must not be subjected to sideloads or
bending loads resulting from contact with the lifesaving device or
anyother object. An HRU may fail to operate if it is forced into
bending or contactwith a liferaft container as shown in Enclosure (6).
(3)The release button on the end of the plunger must face away from
the raft or otherdevice on the side from which it is approached, so
that the release plunger isaccessible for manual operation.(4)The sea
painter is secured to a float-free weak link which is in turn shackled
to thedeck or strong point on the vessel. An inflatable liferaft comes
equipped with itsown weak link. The weak link for a life float or
buoyant apparatus must becertified to Coast Guard requirements --46
CFR 160.073-- as indicated on itsidentification tag. Note that the sea
painter is not connected to the Navy/CoastGuard style HRU in any way.
(5)The gripe assembly can be released by slackening the turnbuckle or
by pushing inon the release plunger. If the lifesaving device is to be
moved to a launchingstation, the painter should be led to the station
directly in a straight line, over any
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
Enclosure (1) to NVIC 4-862obstructions. If this cannot be done, the
painter and weak link should bedisconnected and rescued at an
appropriate strong point near the launching station.(f)Installation of
painter-Securing HRUs. Enclosure (7) shows the correct installation of
apainter-securing HRU. Variations may be necessary to account for
design differences, orto overcome specific installation problems on a
particular vessel, but all installationsshould conform to the
following1)painter-securing HRUs need to have a pelican hook in the
gripe arrangement toprovide for manual release. The pelican hook must
be located where it is readilyaccessible for manual release. A special
tool provided with the HRU will also openit, but this tool is intended
for maintenance and will not normally be stowed in aplace convenient
to the HRU.(2)When they obtain Coast Guard approval, painter-securing
HRUs will probably beequipped with gripe-tensioning springs. In any
case, the gripe should be snug whenthe hook is closed and the gripe is
assembled to the release.(3)The release is secured to the deck or to a
bracket on a liferaft cradle intended forthis purpose. Like the Navy/
Coast Guard release, the painter-securing HRU mustnot contact a raft
container or any other object that would impart a side load orbending
load.(4)The sea painter is attached directly to the painter-securing
'[RU by a link orshackle. Any weak link supplied with an inflatable
liferaft on the inboard end of itspainter should be removed and
discarded(5)In place of the discarded weak link discussed in
Subparagraph 3-f(4), the HRUwill have its own weak link of 500 lbs.
breaking strength. One end of the weak linkis attached to the deck
either directly or through the part of the HRU attached tothe deck.
The other end is attached to the link or shackle at the end of the
painter.The link or shackle is attached to the HRU so that the weak
link is not a loadcarrying part of the painter system until the
release opens. Note especially that forinflatable liferafts the weak
link used should be the one supplied with the releaseand of the 500
lb. strength as required for an inflatable liferaft. For life floats
andbuoyant apparatus, the weak link must be one certified under 46 CFR
160.073 ofthe proper strength, and of a length that will work properly
with the release.(6)The gripe assembly can be released by opening the
pelican hook, or using thespecial tool to open the HRU. If the raft is
to be moved to a launching station, thepainter should be led to it in
an straight line, over any obstructions. A raft using apainter-
securing '[RU should not normally be installed in a place where there
is nodirect access to a launching station, since it is not possible to
move the weak linkand painter to a new securing point, without having
the special tool that opens theHRU..."

On Jun 11, 4:45*pm, Bob wrote:
On Jun 11, 11:58*am, wrote:

Also IIRC most liferafts have a weak link in the teather that should
remain attached to the vessel, unless it sinks in which case the link
will fail allowing the raft to float free.

Fred

My Dearest Fred:
Since I know you are vastly more experinced and knowldegable my self I
though I would paste some info for you regarding lifraft Painter/weak
link/hydro static release. I konw you will read this carfully so you
do not shame yourself again.

By the way, as I am not that knowing what is "iirc?"
Bob

"....NVIC 4-8628 MAR 1986NAVIGATION AND VESSEL INSPECTION CIRCULAR NO.
4 86Electronic Version for Distribution Via the World Wide WebSubj:
HYDRAULIC RELEASE UNITS FOR LIFERAFTS, LIFE FLOATS, AND
BUOYANTAPPARATUS, AND ALTERNATE FLOAT-FREE ARRANGEMENTS1.PURPOSE. This
Circular summarizes the requirements for installing, testing, and
maintainingCoast Guard approved hydraulic release units used with
liferafts, life floats, and buoyantapparatus. Alternate float-free
arrangements not requiring hydraulic releases are also discussed.
2.DIRECTIVES AFFECTED. Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular 7-69
is canceled, alongwith Changes 1, 2, and 3.3.DISCUSSION.a.General
Description. Hydraulic release units (also referred to as hydrostatic
release unitsor HRUs) are mechanical devices used as -links in the
lashings securing liferafts, life floatsor buoyant apparatus to the
deck of a vessel. If a vessel sinks before the crew canmanually launch
the equipment, the pressure of the water operating on the
HRUautomatically separates it into two parts. This action, at a depth
of between 5 and 15 feet,disconnects the lashing and permits the
unrestrained liferaft, life float or buoyantapparatus to rise to the
surface by its own buoyancy.b.Alternate Float-Free Arrangements. An
HRU is not necessary for satisfactory float-freeinstallation of an
inflatable liferaft, life float, or buoyant apparatus. Enclosure (1)
showsthe installation of a float-free inflatable liferaft in a crib
made of removable loose-fittingstanchions and bars. The height of the
enclosing stanchions will depend on the location ofthe raft on deck
and its exposure to boarding seas. Enclosure (2) shows a stowage rack
ingimbals for preventing a liferaft from being trapped if the vessel
should capsize as it sinks.Apart from the details of the stowage rack,
its location on deck must receive carefulconsideration, especially on
vessels with low freeboards where green water washing overthe deck
could result in the loss of the raft.c.Navy/Coast Guard HRUs. The
first Coast Guard approved HURs evolved from designsmanufactured to a
U.S. Navy specification, MIL-R-15041. Three of these stamped-
metaldevices received approval, although the "Arrow" unit is no longer
in production. Enclosure(3) includes details of these first HRUs, a
table of their operating features, and details ofthe gripes for
restraining the lifesaving device.(1)The Raftgo Model C is produced by
Raftgo Hendry Co. (formerly C.J. HendryCo.) under Coast Guard approval
numbers 160.062/1/0 through 160.062/1/4.Raftgo Model C releases may be
used to secure a single liferaft, life float, orbuoyant apparatus, or
multiple devices.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----
Page 2
Enclosure (1) to NVIC 4-861(2)The Arrow Model 404 was produced by
Arrow Manufacturing Co. under CoastGuard approvals 160.062/210 and
160.062/2/1. The Switlik Model S-880 isessentially identical to the
Arrow HRU, and is produced by Switlik Parachute Co.under approval
number 160.062/3/0. Although these units are marked for acapacity of
up to 3750 lbs., the gripe spring arrangement will deform under
abuoyant load of around 1000 lbs. Therefore, Arrow and Switlik
releases areapproved for single unit installation only. They must not
be used to secure morethan one liferaft, life float, or buoyant
apparatus, or the buoyant load may deformthe gripe spring
arrangement.d.Painter-Securing HRUs. In Europe, painter-securing HRUs
perform the three-part functionof (1) a full-strength securing point
for the inboard end of the sea painter; (2) anattachment point for the
float-free weak link on the same end of the sea painter; and (3)
arelease point for one end of the strap restraining the lifesaving
equipment. In contrast, theNavy/Coast Guard style devices shown on
Enclosure (3) perform only the third of thesethree functions.
Enclosure (4) shows how the painter-securing HRUs differ from theNavy/
Coast Guard type. Unproved versions of these devices are available in
the U.S. foruninspected vessels, and there may soon be Coast Guard
approved versions that can beused on inspected vessels...."

Bob, The HRU and the weak links are not the same thing. Are u sure you
attended lifeboat school?

IIRC = if I remember correctly.

Again what was your excuse for keeping the raft and EPIRB below decks?

Fred

Bob, The HRU and the weak links are not the same thing. Are u sure you
attended lifeboat school?

Again what was your excuse for keeping the raft and EPIRB below decks?

Fred


Hello Fred:
To help fill the void in your life.
Bob

On Jun 11, 9:04*pm, Bob wrote:
Bob, The HRU and the weak links are not the same thing. Are u sure you
attended lifeboat school?
Again what was your excuse for keeping the raft and EPIRB below decks?
Fred

Hello Fred:
To help fill the void in your life.
Bob

Thanks Bob

I hope you smarten up and get a proper mount with a hydrostatic
release if you really sail at all offshore in the PNW for your epirb.
Mount it on your mast base aft if you do not have a better spot due to
flush decks. It is just plain dumb to keep an EPIRB below decks.

I can halfway understand keeping a liferaft in a soft pack in the
cockpit (not Below), if you can not afford a proper hard pack and rack
with a HRU.

What kind of boat do you have takes on so much green water that you
have secured items washing over?
Is that why you never post pictures of your boat? Is it a sunfish?

Please note in this film there are liferafts that see plenty of blue
water washing over the cases, but none are washed over or trigger the
HRU's : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuzy...eature=related

Is it because your water is green and weighs more that you risk your
life and keep your EPIRB and liferaft below?

Do you plan on attending Liferaft school? Barking out oar commands on
a liferaft is pretty much a waste of time.

Fred

On Jun 12, 6:28*am, wrote:

Thanks Bob

No worries Fred. I simply did a search for "hydrostatic release" and
"liferaft" and copied the first thing that looked eye numbingly
technical. Sorry I didnt read it. I thought yould sink your teeth
into it hoping to find somthing to suport your continued cricisims...

Was it even appropreate to liferafts?

*I hope you smarten up and get a proper mount with a hydrostatic
release if you really sail at all offshore in the PNW for your epirb.
Mount it on your mast base aft if you do not have a better spot due to
flush decks. It is just plain dumb to keep an EPIRB below decks.

Yes I do have a flush fore deck

That depends on boat/area of operation/sea states


I can halfway understand keeping a liferaft in a soft pack in the
cockpit (not Below), if you can not afford a proper hard pack and rack
with a HRU.

Humm again, the boat does not really alow much in the cock pit. A guy
named Magnus Halvorsen designed it for sailing not for sipping limon
drops and knawing on burnt chcken thats raw on the inside from those
rediculus grills hung on the back of nearly every marina queen i see.

*What kind of boat do you have takes on so much green water that you
have secured items washing over?
Is that why you never post pictures of your boat? Is it a sunfish?

I have a Freya 39 built by gannon in 1979. there are a couple reason
for keeping below. but wont wast your time.
Never had a sunfish but paddled around a bay on an 8' orange poly dock
float. that was fun!

*Please note in this film there are liferafts that see plenty of blue
water washing over the cases, but none are washed over or trigger the
HRU's :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuzy...eature=related


Racers........they seem a rather skilled lot.
Im not concerned about a premature hydro releast. unfortuanly my
little 39.3' boat is a bit smaller than that race thingy. each
situatoin requires a diffrent installation. I agree on deck is best
if............. but i dont so....... it goes below.


*Is it because your water is green and weighs more that you risk your
life and keep your EPIRB and liferaft below?

Yes, i thought eveyone nu about the electromagneic spectrum and the
specific gravity of green water compared to blue and brown in a
breaking wave hit. As I am sure you relize you mus apply the princple
of Partial Presure to a hydrostatic realease mechinism. Consider the
following formula (PP H2O x .445) / (64 lbs/cuft x sq root 14.7 moles)
( speed of 2.031 meter per second per meter sq) = Hydrostatic Release
Factor of 1.48


Do you plan on attending Liferaft school?


I am hurt. I thought you read every word I wrote
Yes, I did recieve my Lifeboatman and Proficiency in Survival Craft
(LB &PSC) certification.
And yes we got to row a boat around, Give Way All ...... Together.
the one I liked was Toss Oars. I was thinking of you every time I gave
the command Toss.

*Barking out oar commands on
a liferaft is pretty much a waste of time.

I have no reason to argue for the USCG. I suggest you direct your
comments to them.

Fred

Have fun fred. I think I need to do somthing today.....
Bob

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:33:36 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

Have fun fred. I think I need to do somthing today.....
Bob

Spelling lessons perhaps?