Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

I recently went sailing with a friend who has a 54' Swan. He's not very
electronic savy. At one point his wife was at the helm and asked me for
help interperting the display on the chartplotter. He had it set up for a
North-up display, and we were headed SW, which made the display confusing
for his wife. I switched it to heading-up and she immediately understood
what she was looking at. When the husband returned to the helm, he asked
me to switch it back.

Yesterday he stopped by the house and I questioned why he had the display
orientated that way. He said that

(1) He sails with two individuals who are in the CG, one of whom commands
an ice breaker. He claims that's the way that the CG operates all of their
displays, and if that's the way that the CG operates, there must be a
reason.

(2) He wants to keep his radar display and chartplotter synchronized, so
they're both in N-up mode.

(3) Some piece of navigation software that he runs on a PC down below only
does N-up, so he wants to keep them the same.

I argued that N-up isn't intuitive. It's fine for plotting courses, but
when I'm at the helm, I want the display to match what I'm seeing. It was
obvious from the reaction of his wife that she felt that heading-up was
more intuitive. I can't imagine that there's an issue with the radar (a
Furuno) as keeping that in N-up takes a lot computing power than heading-
up.

I also noted that when he was at the helm, that he kept scrolling the
display to see what was ahead of him as he rarely kept the boat centered on
the display. I explained that he could have the chartplotter position the
boat so that it was at the bottom 1/3 of the display and then would have
the top 2/3 of the dislay to show what was ahead. That didn't pulse him.

Personally I like to have my display in configured in course-up mode when
navigating to waypoints and in heading-up when I'm simply driving the boat.
I also configure it as described in the above paragraph to maximize my view
of what's ahead.

How do others have their displays configured? How does the CG have their's
configured? What's the purpose of N-up vs heading-up?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

I use both N-up and Heading-up. Heading up when the plotter is tuned
in tight for close range while navigating tricky passages. N-up when
zoomed out for a lay of the land. Both have their advantages for
me.

On a previous boat, we had an aft facing nav station. I found that my
brain took a little longer to process the picture on an aft facing
radar screen that a forward facing radar screen and my wife never was
able to make that transition. Having had that experience, I would
avoid an aft facing radar display installation on an future boats.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

"Geoff Schultz" wrote

I argued that N-up isn't intuitive.

For me, I find it's exactly the opposite. When I started using the
chartplotter, I though course up would be easy but I'm so used to maps
and charts that I kept finding myself confused. My brain wants to
make the conversion and have the stable reference point.

Roger Long

This is the reason that I asked this question. However, please explain to
me how what's in front of you isn't stable. I always know what's in front
of me, but I may not know which way is N without looking at an instrument
(compass.)

When I'm approaching a bouy and it's on my right side, I like to be able to
look at the chartplotter and see a bouy on the right. I don't like having
to think, "oh, I'm headed S, so the the dislay will show it on the left."
I've also been in enough unfamiliar waters where the R/G have reversed
multiple times, so that I can't trust red-right-returning.

Have you ever entered a busy harbor at night and tried to sort out all of
the navigation lights from the shore lights and vessels operating? That
can be very hard, let alone keeping track of the N orientation.

I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think that way, or at least I find
that it takes a lot more concentration to rotate the chart to match what
I'm seeing. When you have other people on board and they're at the helm,
do they find the display confusing?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

I would say that this is a personal preference type of thing. Since
the CG is a military organization, only the top brass gets to have a
preference, and everybody gets to be trained to do it that way.

I prefer north up because when you turn the boat, the chart plotter
doesn't change around. But you need a really good "boat" symbol drawn
on the screen that shows the heading very clearly.

Either way can be "intuitive" if it matches how you think it should
work.

1) You want to watch a boat symbol Use North up
wander around the electronic chart.

2) You want to look at the world like Use Heading up
you have x-ray vision.

Training and practice is the way to make either way work for you. Also
teach each person how to check the mode and change to their
preference.

Todd Smith
3S

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
.. .
"Roger Long" wrote in
:

"Geoff Schultz" wrote

I argued that N-up isn't intuitive.

For me, I find it's exactly the opposite. When I started using the
chartplotter, I though course up would be easy but I'm so used to maps
and charts that I kept finding myself confused. My brain wants to
make the conversion and have the stable reference point.

Roger Long

This is the reason that I asked this question. However, please explain to
me how what's in front of you isn't stable. I always know what's in front
of me, but I may not know which way is N without looking at an instrument
(compass.)

When I'm approaching a bouy and it's on my right side, I like to be able
to
look at the chartplotter and see a bouy on the right. I don't like having
to think, "oh, I'm headed S, so the the dislay will show it on the left."
I've also been in enough unfamiliar waters where the R/G have reversed
multiple times, so that I can't trust red-right-returning.

Have you ever entered a busy harbor at night and tried to sort out all of
the navigation lights from the shore lights and vessels operating? That
can be very hard, let alone keeping track of the N orientation.

I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think that way, or at least I find
that it takes a lot more concentration to rotate the chart to match what
I'm seeing. When you have other people on board and they're at the helm,
do they find the display confusing?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org


I don't have a chartplotter on my boat, but every time I've used one and had
the choice between N or forward up, I've used forward up. It's a lot more
intuitive, especially when people who aren't used to chartplotters or
navigation in general are at the helm.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

I always use my instruments North up. I was a surveyor for many years and
had to navigate through dense forest laying out points. All of our plans &
maps were N up so my brain will not function any other way. I navigate the
same way with charts either paper or electronic.

SilverK


"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
.. .
"Roger Long" wrote in
:

"Geoff Schultz" wrote

I argued that N-up isn't intuitive.

For me, I find it's exactly the opposite. When I started using the
chartplotter, I though course up would be easy but I'm so used to maps
and charts that I kept finding myself confused. My brain wants to
make the conversion and have the stable reference point.

Roger Long

This is the reason that I asked this question. However, please explain to
me how what's in front of you isn't stable. I always know what's in front
of me, but I may not know which way is N without looking at an instrument
(compass.)

When I'm approaching a bouy and it's on my right side, I like to be able
to
look at the chartplotter and see a bouy on the right. I don't like having
to think, "oh, I'm headed S, so the the dislay will show it on the left."
I've also been in enough unfamiliar waters where the R/G have reversed
multiple times, so that I can't trust red-right-returning.

Have you ever entered a busy harbor at night and tried to sort out all of
the navigation lights from the shore lights and vessels operating? That
can be very hard, let alone keeping track of the N orientation.

I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think that way, or at least I find
that it takes a lot more concentration to rotate the chart to match what
I'm seeing. When you have other people on board and they're at the helm,
do they find the display confusing?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

I'm in agreement with Geoff. I much prefer the "heading up" mode.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

wrote in message
...
I would say that this is a personal preference type of thing. Since
the CG is a military organization, only the top brass gets to have a
preference, and everybody gets to be trained to do it that way.

I prefer north up because when you turn the boat, the chart plotter
doesn't change around. But you need a really good "boat" symbol drawn
on the screen that shows the heading very clearly.

Either way can be "intuitive" if it matches how you think it should
work.

1) You want to watch a boat symbol Use North up
wander around the electronic chart.

2) You want to look at the world like Use Heading up
you have x-ray vision.

Training and practice is the way to make either way work for you. Also
teach each person how to check the mode and change to their
preference.

Todd Smith
3S
I concur with Todd. Having the flexibility to change the orientation of the
boat is convenient. When I am in a familiar area I prefer to use Heading
up. In my case all instruments are mounted in the (Raymarine) cockpit
facing the pedestal compass and the Wheel. By looking at the magnetic
compass I can validate the ECompass and if needed apply the necessary
correction to the autopilot. When inside the cabin we use the Power
Squadron technique on paper charts.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

On Jun 4, 4:02 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
... How do others have their displays configured? How does the CG have their's
configured? What's the purpose of N-up vs heading-up?
....
Just to add a confused point of view, I keep my radar in course up
mode and my electronic charts in N up mode. My radar can do N up but
it uses a non-gyro compass for this and I find it adds errors to have
it hunting around. When I look at the PPI I can guess when we on
heading and take my bearings as we swing past. Course up also makes
plotting on the screen possible. Transfer plotting is better but with
only two folks on board it's rare that we have the time. Box boats
these days are running in excess of 20 knots at sea... Time
flies...

The electronic charts I use are on a computer that I keep at the nav
station. There all the charts, paper and "e" are north up and there
is no confusion. On the e-charts the computer plots my boat, draws an
arrow to along my future course and leaves "bread crumbs" along my
wake... I've never found orientation to be a problem. Though, lots
of places we've been the electronic charts are in excess of a mile out
of WGS and in many locals are not correctable. So, we're not in the
habit of piloting by e-chart alone.

I'm not sure how much cred I'd give some hear-say about how The Coast
Guard does something. There's lots of misinformation out there.
There is the possibility that the CG is using different (and typically
outdated) technology. There's the possibility that only some of them
do it a certain way. And, of course, doing it their way w/o their
training is silly. If the crew can't make it work it's the wrong
system.

-- Tom.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

Anyway, it's less brainwork for me to treat it like a paper chart than to
constantly remind myself that it is reorienting. I'm sure it's different
for others and there's nothing wrong with using heading or course up

I agree. I find N-up preferrable, both on the water and in the car. The
wife likes Heading-up. Both systems allow easily making the swap.

For radar I only use Heading-up as it would be a bit more 'brainwork' to
make sense of it when in conditions that really required using radar. And
even in those situations I generally still keep a N-up chart visible in a
split screen view.

If I had to guess I'd say it has a lot to do with how people learn to
navigate. If you've spent a lot of time plotting courses using N-up maps
I'd think it would certainly affect your choice for chartplotter displays.

I wouldn't call either method right or wrong. It's a matter of personal
taste and if one mode allows you to navigate more reliably then, by all
means, stick with using it.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

Geoff Schultz wrote:
....

How do others have their displays configured? How does the CG have their's
configured? What's the purpose of N-up vs heading-up?


My wife and I have this same discussion over the chartplotter, and the
car GPS. She favors "Track Up" while I favor "Course Up" for situation
where we're following a constrained course, and "North Up" when we're in
open situations.

I have always used a chart as my primary tool, and a small screen GPS
chartplotter for location. Last year I upgraded to a nicer Garmin 545,
so I'm finding I have to rethink the way I navigate.

This reminds me of a situation many years ago delivering a Folkboat from
New York to Boston. The owner and I had a "navigational disagreement"
and in the aftermath we realize that we visualized the situation
completely differently. He "placed himself" at water level, and
oriented using various range lines, whereas I "raised myself up" to a
birds-eye view where I could create a map in my mind. Each method has
its own limitations and is prone to different types of errors.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

jeff wrote:
Geoff Schultz wrote:
...

How do others have their displays configured? How does the CG have
their's configured? What's the purpose of N-up vs heading-up?


My wife and I have this same discussion over the chartplotter, and the
car GPS. She favors "Track Up" while I favor "Course Up" for situation
where we're following a constrained course, and "North Up" when we're in
open situations.

I have always used a chart as my primary tool, and a small screen GPS
chartplotter for location. Last year I upgraded to a nicer Garmin 545,
so I'm finding I have to rethink the way I navigate.

This reminds me of a situation many years ago delivering a Folkboat from
New York to Boston. The owner and I had a "navigational disagreement"
and in the aftermath we realize that we visualized the situation
completely differently. He "placed himself" at water level, and
oriented using various range lines, whereas I "raised myself up" to a
birds-eye view where I could create a map in my mind. Each method has
its own limitations and is prone to different types of errors.

I think that this has to do with the way we orient ourselves in the
spatial world. Some people are "North up" and some are "Heading up."
No right or wrong, just what works for you.

I suspect that people who are visual are "North up" types while verbals
are "Heading up."

I think that this correlates to some degree to a male/female preference
such as:
Male/Female
Visual/Verbal
North/Head

Once I had a cable crew with one guy from a plantation in South Carolina
who could not read or write. I also had two fellows a couple of years
out of college: English and History as I recall.

The college grads were fine if you told them "Rig this pull just like
the one we did last Thursday." They were experts at rote memory. If I
said "...just like last Thursday but exit left instead of right" they
were totally flumuxed.

The guy from the plantation, never told him anything except "Attack" and
"Good job." Now he had great spatial orientation skills, if no
edumacation. He was one of the most intelligent fellows I ever met.

Now if you want to meet a dolt, listen to me sign.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

jeff wrote:
Geoff Schultz wrote:
...

How do others have their displays configured? How does the CG have
their's configured? What's the purpose of N-up vs heading-up?


My wife and I have this same discussion over the chartplotter, and the
car GPS. She favors "Track Up" while I favor "Course Up" for
situation where we're following a constrained course, and "North Up"
when we're in open situations.

I have always used a chart as my primary tool, and a small screen GPS
chartplotter for location. Last year I upgraded to a nicer Garmin
545, so I'm finding I have to rethink the way I navigate.

This reminds me of a situation many years ago delivering a Folkboat
from New York to Boston. The owner and I had a "navigational
disagreement" and in the aftermath we realize that we visualized the
situation completely differently. He "placed himself" at water
level, and oriented using various range lines, whereas I "raised
myself up" to a birds-eye view where I could create a map in my mind.
Each method has its own limitations and is prone to different types
of errors.

Course-up is OK for navating in the proximity of land, or in narrow
channels, but in the open sea, it's a total bore. You have a line always
heading in the N-S axis, dissecting the display.

North-up is the best for open-sea navigating since it resembles the charts
we were brought up to use before electronic displays became available.



Dennis

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

"Bill Kearney" wrote:

Anyway, it's less brainwork for me to treat it like a paper chart than to
constantly remind myself that it is reorienting. I'm sure it's different
for others and there's nothing wrong with using heading or course up

I agree. I find N-up preferrable, both on the water and in the car. The
wife likes Heading-up. Both systems allow easily making the swap.

For radar I only use Heading-up as it would be a bit more 'brainwork' to
make sense of it when in conditions that really required using radar. And
even in those situations I generally still keep a N-up chart visible in a
split screen view.

If I had to guess I'd say it has a lot to do with how people learn to
navigate. If you've spent a lot of time plotting courses using N-up maps
I'd think it would certainly affect your choice for chartplotter displays.

We don't have a chart plotter. We do have a radar (which we use) and
computer charts.

Bob certainly learned to navigate planes and boats before much
electronics was available, and I always set the computer charts course
up for him. If it isn't course up, he complains. I don't like it
either, although I started out with electronic charts on the computer
and not back in the dark ages when he did.

If it was just me and other people's wives, I would say that it was a
sex linked thing because on land, men often remember routes and women
remember landmarks. Bob absolutely can't understand how I can look up
and know that I'm on Route 301, but not know whether I need to turn
right or left to get to where I want to go.

I also cannot switch between wheel and tiller. Since our boat has a
wheel, I refuse to take the helm on a boat with a tiller as it will
mix me up. I can't steer by the compass either. Must be a glitch in
my brain.

I wouldn't call either method right or wrong. It's a matter of personal
taste and if one mode allows you to navigate more reliably then, by all
means, stick with using it.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

If it isn't course up, he complains. I don't like it
either, although I started out with electronic charts on the computer
and not back in the dark ages when he did.


As far back as I can remember, my father used to hound my mother for
turning the roadmaps upside down so she would see course up, too....(c;

Oh, it used to make him mad.....

Of course, HE was the one that got lost....not her.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

"Dennis Pogson" wrote in message
...
jeff wrote:
Geoff Schultz wrote:
...

How do others have their displays configured? How does the CG have
their's configured? What's the purpose of N-up vs heading-up?


My wife and I have this same discussion over the chartplotter, and the
car GPS. She favors "Track Up" while I favor "Course Up" for
situation where we're following a constrained course, and "North Up"
when we're in open situations.



I was N up guy for 20 years on the boat. I liked the familiarity of the
look and feel... They I started flying Cirrus aircraft and my instructor
flamed me for flying N up... told him it was a boating thing... he told me
boats don't go 185 Kts and stuff happens too fast for N up on a plane... I
switched and then found the boat to be strange for me with N up so I
switched. I still will switch back to N up when I am going VERY slow
looking for a dive spot. In a boat, whatever you are used to works.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

Larry wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

If it isn't course up, he complains. I don't like it

I meant of course that I don't like course up.

either, although I started out with electronic charts on the computer
and not back in the dark ages when he did.

As far back as I can remember, my father used to hound my mother for
turning the roadmaps upside down so she would see course up, too....(c;

Oh, it used to make him mad.....

Don't know why he didn't like that- I don't do it very often, but I
will do that just to be sure that I'm telling him the right way to
turn.

I have a lot of trouble with right and left. So if you told me to
turn to the starboard, first I have to think starboard is right, and
then I have to figure out which way that is (although I'm not as bad
as a girl in my modern art class who had a lot of trouble in the slide
presentations because she couldn't see the freckle on her left wrist
in the dark). It's kind of a family joke - no no the Other left.

Of course, HE was the one that got lost....not her.

I'm always the one that does the navigation (car and boat) and he's
usually the one at the wheel. I can't react quickly enough that I
want to be there in a tricky situation.

On the boat, I put the waypoints into the map on the computer and also
any previous tracks in the location, and set the computer up for him.
He could probably do it himself if he had to but if it doesn't go
quickly he gets irritated with it.

Someone mentioned having the charts off by about a mile, and that was
the case in Bimini. The first time we went we went in by eye - me
standing on the bow as lookout. The GPS was tracking on the computer
but we weren't watching it. When we went there the second time, I
had the previous track to go by and we could follow it even though it
looked like we were on land.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:50:58 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Have you ever entered a busy harbor at night and tried to sort out all of
the navigation lights from the shore lights and vessels operating? That
can be very hard, let alone keeping track of the N orientation.


RADAR of course is almost always oriented "heading up". I find it
much easier to match up chart features if it is oriented the same way.
Our RADAR/Chart Plotter has an option to overlay RADAR and chart data
which is extremely useful for sorting out a strange harbor in poor
visibility, and differentiating between navaids and boat traffic.

I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think that way, or at least I find
that it takes a lot more concentration to rotate the chart to match what
I'm seeing. When you have other people on board and they're at the helm,
do they find the display confusing?

I've found a few people who are so hide bound that they will only
consider "north up" chart orientation. I view that as their problem
and go with what works for me. I do find that "north up" is more
intuitive for laying out routes and doing slow speed maneuvers such as
pulling the anchor, but immediately switch to course up when underway.

Chartplotter Display Orientation
 

Interesting..... naturally, I started life doing all radar "head up", but
once North up came along and I shifted to it, I would never use "Head
up" again, for anything....different strokes......

otn




Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:50:58 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Have you ever entered a busy harbor at night and tried to sort out all
of the navigation lights from the shore lights and vessels operating?
That can be very hard, let alone keeping track of the N orientation.


RADAR of course is almost always oriented "heading up". I find it
much easier to match up chart features if it is oriented the same way.
Our RADAR/Chart Plotter has an option to overlay RADAR and chart data
which is extremely useful for sorting out a strange harbor in poor
visibility, and differentiating between navaids and boat traffic.

I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think that way, or at least I
find that it takes a lot more concentration to rotate the chart to
match what I'm seeing. When you have other people on board and
they're at the helm, do they find the display confusing?

I've found a few people who are so hide bound that they will only
consider "north up" chart orientation. I view that as their problem
and go with what works for me. I do find that "north up" is more
intuitive for laying out routes and doing slow speed maneuvers such as
pulling the anchor, but immediately switch to course up when underway.