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power vs sail
I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you
folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. |
power vs sail
I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you
folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? Yup. In addition to knowing how to run a power boat, (which is what you would likely be doing the majority of time for local jaunts on most sailboats..) you need to learn how to sail. Sailing fits well with folks who aren't in a hurry, and enjoy a more natural experience. If you're the type who likes to backpack into the woods with a poncho, a tarp, and a pound of granola you might make a great sailor. If your idea of getting back to nature is to putt slowly through Yellowstone in a Winnebago.......you're a powerboater. Sailing will have you on deck in all kinds of weather, but powerboating can make you feel isolated from the water. 1000 different boaters will give you 999 different answers. One option is a power boat with a sailing dinghy. You need a dinghy anyway, might as well have one rigged for sailing and you can enjoy being blown around by the wind a bit. Here's an idea: Find two friends with boats. One a powerboater, and the other a sailor. Tell them each you will help wash the boat some Saturday if they will take you out for the afternoon. That should get you a ride. :-) Then, compare. It's all boating, it's all having fun on the water. There are those who see each school of boating as a "divine calling" and sneer at boaters in the opposite category. And yes, that's just as ignorant and prejudiced as it seems. Any kind of boating can be fun. One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. Some of the Provinces require boaters to complete and education course. I know BC does. Not sure about Ontario. |
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"O:P\)" wrote: I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. I don't know if you need a license in Toronto or not. In some places one has to take an elementary course of some kind in order to operate a boat if you are younger than a certain age. Yes you do need extra skills for a sailboat, although there are some sailboats that never sail, so they are basically motor boats that can't go under low fixed bridges. But even though there are folks that have no motors on their sailboats and sail everywhere, usually if you have a sailboat you also need to know about motor boats too. There are quite a few different ways of getting into sailing in Toronto. Showing up at the sailing clubs on their race days and learn as you go - by crewing for folks who have boats. Sailing OP (other people's) boats is a real cheap way to go sailing. Be aware that some people who race are really into winning and will not be amused if you drop the sail in the water or commit some other faux pas - if you fall in, they may not leave the race to come and get you. There are many folks in the Toronto area who live aboard their boats, even in the winter. I've also met some going down the ICW - folks from Toronto and other places in Canada who want to escape the cold. For some time, even before we had a boat, I belonged to an email list that is run out of the University of Toronto computer, called the Live-Aboard List. ___________________________________ || The Live-Aboard List : send a "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" request || || in body of message to: || You can talk to some of those folks. Or you can take lessons from one of the sailing schools. These are about $1200 CAD for your first 4 levels but each club/school structures their programs differently and rates vary considerably. grandma Rosalie http://www12.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/ |
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Wow - that's a little like saying I would like some place to live, should I
choose an apartment or a house or a condo or a cottage or a mobile home or trailer, or cardboard box in a ditch, with or without covered parking, one bedroom or six, maybe a fireplace, what type of heating, rural or urban... you get my drift. However, the important thing is that boating is the most important activity in the world, so you're on the right track. Licensing in Canada is federal, not provincial, so it's the same everywhere in the country. (Actually, not quite the same - there are exceptions for some northern regions). It depends i) how old you are vs. what power the boat has and ii) how long it is. Those are two separate, unrelated requirements - if either apply, you need a "card" - they're actually quite careful _not_ to call it a licence. The regs are he www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs-bsn/sbg-gsn/age_e.htm and www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs-bsn/courses_e.htm. I'm a proponent of the card whether you need it legally or not, but that's a controversial issue. Check www.boatdocking.com/other/Licence.html. Your general questions fit in well here or on rec.boats, and your specifically Canadian ones could also go to can.rec.boating. Tell a little more about yourself and about why boating interests you, for more specific replies. Charles ==== Charles T. Low - remove "UN" www.boatdocking.com/BDPhoto.html - Photo Contest www.boatdocking.com www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26 - my boat ==== "O:P)" wrote in message ble.rogers.com... I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. |
power vs sail
Thank you for your replies. I think I will be going with sail boat, I just
wanted to hear what others had to say about it and if there are any major issues to consider. My reasons a 1.the price of the boats, I want a roomy boat, when I look at power boats, they go for 25-50 thousand when over 25', sail boats are much less expensive, I've seen 25-27 footers on ebay for 6-12 thousand. I'm sure that the condition of the boat makes a huge difference in the price (like anything else, for sure). 2.safety, I think that if a power boat fails to start in the middle of the lake you are dead in the water (kind of hard to row back to shore a 25-30', x-thousand pound boat), with the sail boat, you can always catch the wind, no engine no problem. 3.time. I have my own enterprise and my time is kind of limited (the money too), but I know I can make time for a boat, here and there couple of days. So this is something else to consider for me. If I'm going to buy a boat, I prefer to tide 15 thousand as opposed to 50 thousand on a boat that I'll use 5-6 times a year. What are you opinions? Please, I need as much info as you folks can provide from you past experiences. I don't want to make any more mistakes than what I have to when buying a boat. Any good surveyors in Toronto area? Should I look for a private deal or I'm better of with a broker? If I tell a broker that I want to spend around 10 thousand, will he take me seriously? (his commission will be much lower than if I'm looking to spend 250, right?) Eventually, I would like to take the boat to Florida (Miami area), how long should I plan for a trip like that on a sail boat? As for sailing/boating schools, any suggestions? |
power vs sail
O:P) wrote in message ble.rogers.com... I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. Unless you feel the 'need for speed', I'd go sail. After all, half the fun is getting there, not to mention the sound of the water against your hull/wind in your rigging etc. Newer 4 cycle outboards are getting a lot quieter and fresher smelling so the difference isn't as drastic as on an older boat with a large 2 cycle infernal engine. As for courses, I'd recommend the Canadian Power & Sail Squadron. Take the 'boating Course' which is a good start and will give you your operators card. (compulsory by 2009). Next, I'd look for a keelboat course at a local yacht club/marina. From what I've seen on the internet, Toronto is a good place to sail..with lots of clubs and a good choice of 2nd hand boats. Don't forget about the lakes north of you. I have a trip planned up your way in May to shop for a 19' trailerable mini-cruiser. If you see any good ones...let me know. |
power vs sail
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:56:07 GMT, "O:P\)" wrote:
I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. 1. Check out the basic / intro course at a local Power Squadron. Canadian Yachting Assoc also has certification & courses from intro thru offshore passagemaking. 2. In Toronto, you require an "operator's permit" for any motorized boat within the downtown area (basically from Bluffer's Park to Humber River, within a couple miles of shore). Testing is on basic rules-of-the-road and a short practical test (back off the dock, pick up a life-jacket, c'mon back). Marine police check pretty regularly within the inner harbour (if you've got a powerboat especially). 3. I think you also need a Coast Guard licence. At one time, if you had the Toronto Port Authority "operator's permit" you could also get the CG one without further testing; maybe even vice-versa. 4. If your boat has a VHF radio (pretty well a necessity) you need a "base station" permit and an "operator's permit". Some of the local yacht clubs provide basic intro sailing lessons -- either on a dinghy (geared towards racing) altho a few also have keelboat lessons (my club, Ashbridge's Bay Yacht Club, for example). Clubs also tend to have prep courses for licencing and sometimes even administer the testing. ABYC is putting together a membership category that includes timesharing a 25ft sailboat (a blatant plug :o) I dunno of any lessons available on operating a powerboat. Hope this helps, g. |
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"O:P\)" wrote: Thank you for your replies. I think I will be going with sail boat, I just wanted to hear what others had to say about it and if there are any major issues to consider. My reasons a Your reasons are logical, but IMHO naive. 1.the price of the boats, I want a roomy boat, when I look at power boats, they go for 25-50 thousand when over 25', sail boats are much less expensive, I've seen 25-27 footers on ebay for 6-12 thousand. I'm sure that the condition of the boat makes a huge difference in the price (like anything else, for sure). Sailboats are often much less roomy than power boats. I would not have thought that anyone could consider them more roomy. 2.safety, I think that if a power boat fails to start in the middle of the lake you are dead in the water (kind of hard to row back to shore a 25-30', x-thousand pound boat), with the sail boat, you can always catch the wind, no engine no problem. I don't think you should have a sailboat using this as logic. You should have a sailboat only if you passionately like sailing. Otherwise, all that extra gear will be a PITA to maintain. Also it is just a whole bunch of more things to go wrong. 3.time. I have my own enterprise and my time is kind of limited (the money too), but I know I can make time for a boat, here and there couple of days. So this is something else to consider for me. If I'm going to buy a boat, I prefer to tide 15 thousand as opposed to 50 thousand on a boat that I'll use 5-6 times a year. If you are only going to go out 5-6 times a year, I'd charter a boat for those times, and then you won't have the maintenance. Because if you don't spend some time every week (at the minimum) on the boat, it will not be ready for you to go out when you are ready to go. And I'd recommend that you start by chartering a sailboat with a crew somewhere like the Virgin Islands so that you can see if you really want to do the whole boating/sailing thing. It will be cheaper in the long run. What are you opinions? Please, I need as much info as you folks can provide from you past experiences. I don't want to make any more mistakes than what I have to when buying a boat. Any good surveyors in Toronto area? Should I look for a private deal or I'm better of with a broker? If I tell a broker that I want to spend around 10 thousand, will he take me seriously? (his commission will be much lower than if I'm looking to spend 250, right?) Eventually, I would like to take the boat to Florida (Miami area), how long should I plan for a trip like that on a sail boat? As for sailing/boating schools, any suggestions? There are quite a few folks who have gone from Toronto specifically down to Florida and the Bahamas and have websites on the internet telling their stories. I have one myself (although not from Canada) at http://www12.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/ Another one that tells of the process of getting a boat is at http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietrich/MyProgress.html Some Canadian sailors http://www.ayc.on.ca/adventure.html http://members.rogers.com/buttimore/bhbsai.htm http://www.alberg37.org/Cruising/Tun...eHuron2ICW.htm http://www.searoom.com/silverheels/silverheels01.htm http://pages.zdnet.com/ve3erj/MysticLoon/index.html http://www.2hulls.com/archive/Boat%2...lePassage.html http://members.aol.com/donatkdg/CS27-CounterPoint.html http://www.wind-borne.com/journal_Index.htm |
power vs sail
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:10:14 -0500, Gerry Wolfe
wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:56:07 GMT, "O:P\)" wrote: I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. 1. Check out the basic / intro course at a local Power Squadron. Canadian Yachting Assoc also has certification & courses from intro thru offshore passagemaking. 2. In Toronto, you require an "operator's permit" for any motorized boat within the downtown area (basically from Bluffer's Park to Humber River, within a couple miles of shore). Testing is on basic rules-of-the-road and a short practical test (back off the dock, pick up a life-jacket, c'mon back). Marine police check pretty regularly within the inner harbour (if you've got a powerboat especially). 3. I think you also need a Coast Guard licence. At one time, if you had the Toronto Port Authority "operator's permit" you could also get the CG one without further testing; maybe even vice-versa. Depending on vessel size and engine power, you may need a Pleasure Craft Operator's Certificate (PCOC) - any everyone will need a PCOC by 2009, so you may as well get one now - it is included in the Power Squadron Basic course. 4. If your boat has a VHF radio (pretty well a necessity) you need a "base station" permit and an "operator's permit". Dunno what a "base station" permit is - in Canada we no longer require a station license as long as we remain in Canada or the US, but we do require an operator's certificate (Restricted Radiotelephone Operator's Certificate(Marine)) - this is now issued through CPS. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
power vs sail
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:21:52 GMT, "O:P\)" wrote:
3.time. I have my own enterprise and my time is kind of limited (the money too), but I know I can make time for a boat, here and there couple of days. So this is something else to consider for me. If I'm going to buy a boat, I prefer to tide 15 thousand as opposed to 50 thousand on a boat that I'll use 5-6 times a year. You don't want your own boat for that little use. Join a sailing club to learn and use club boats. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Smoking in a bar is like peeing in a punchbowl. |
power vs sail
In article rs.com, O:P\)
says... As for sailing/boating schools, any suggestions? Others have responded intelligently and in more detail than I have to offer for your other questions. I would strongly URGE you to take a course or two, and perhaps join a club for a year to see what you like. In Toronto, there are many clubs and groups that offer either or both power or sail lessons. http://www.sailing.humberc.on.ca/ My personal favorite, I have both taken courses from them, and then belonged to their sail club for a couple of years. Best yet, courses taken are tax deductable. http://www.queensquayyachting.com/ These guys are downtown, in the inner harbour. More traffic to worry about, but perhaps more convenient location. sdg |
power vs sail
My own opinion FWIW .... You don't necessarily need "extra" skills for
sail, versus power, as much as you need "different" skills. For many, the skills you need for sail, are less familiar on a daily basis than the skills you need for power, so are more easily picked up when handling a power boat. Many will differ with this assessment, and that's OK. because in the end you may realize that it's going to be up to you to decides as to which is best for you. otn |
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Rosalie B. wrote in message ... Thanks Grandma for one of the links you noted. I took their IQ test for fun and scored a respectable number that made my day. Now I can show this to my 22 year old son and tell him the 'old man' isn't as dumb as he thinks. ;-) I'm assuming this test is reasonably accurate.....I hope! (re Tickle IQ test) |
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[no experience]
... limited time... ... don't want to make mistakes... Don't buy anything. Get some experience. Take courses at sailing clubs, rent their boats; then offer yourself to slave and grind for a couple racing boats. For power boats, join the Canadian version of the Coast Guard Auxiliary - members with boats need members without boats to crew and help to patrol and inspect and generally get out on the water. Take the courses offered by the CG. Boating isn't brain surgery, but then again, neither is driving, and look what happens there. Lots of grief possible, for no good reason, so approach things with respect. But really: If you've just got to impress the opposite sex right now, forget the boat and take them on a white-water rafting trip. Cheaper, safer, more exciting (on average), better food (unless you're a gourmet cook). Or something like that. Boat ownership is a great life, but a real costly hobby. Rufus |
power vs sail
Don't buy anything.
maybe, maybe not. Get some experience. yeah. Take courses at sailing clubs, nah. It is cheaper to buy an old small boat and go sailing. quicker learning to boot. then offer yourself to slave and grind for a couple racing boats. pick the back of the pack race boats. those who want to win don't want beginners. Those who just want to be out there don't care. Take the courses offered by the CG nah. don't waste your money. |
power vs sail
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:56:07 +0000, O:P) wrote:
I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. Other people have responded with Good Stuff for your case, so I'll just comment on sail vs power in general. Otn is right about the "skills": 90% of the skills you need on a boat are independant of how it's powered (ie rules of the road, docking, "weather-eye"). The impression is that sailboats are more difficult, so most people take courses, etc. while many first-time powerboaters just get in and turn the key. Bad Idea. Concerning Sail vs Power, I'd separate it into 3 categories rather than 2: Sailboats, Trawlers, and Planing powerboats. Trawlers have the most room per ft of length, but I was in a 32ft Searay ("planing") at the Vanc. Boat Show and it was VERY cramped for a 32-footer. I'd say sailboats tend to have more room than planing powerboats. It's "different" room: lots of room in the cockpit for entertaining, not much hanging-locker space. Planing powerboats also cost a LOT of money: initially, operating, and maintenance. You have to overhaul those big engines every 4 yrs of so. And we won't MENTION the fuel consumption! OTOH, if you like to get to faraway places in a hurry, or Impress the Chix, they're the way to go. Trawlers and Sailboats are very similar in that you take your time to get places. Trawlers tend to be steered from inside, so they are warmer and drier, while sailboats get you more "into" nature and the elements. The line merges quite a bit, though: pretty much all sailboats have an engine, and go almost as fast as a trawler under power. Many sailboats have canvas to partially or fully enclose the cockpit in inclement weather. I looked briefly at planing powerboats, decided I couldn't live with the fuel consumption for a boat big enough to weather Georgia Strait, then looked at trawlers, and settled on putting a bigger engine in my sailboat. "Problem Solved!" Lloyd Sumpter "Far Cove" Catalina 36 |
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I looked briefly at planing powerboats, decided I couldn't live with the fuel
consumption for a boat big enough to weather Georgia Strait, then looked at trawlers, and settled on putting a bigger engine in my sailboat. "Problem Solved!" (activate sense of humor here.....) Oh, c'mon Lloyd. You considered a trawler and opted for a larger engine on your sailboat instead? Sounds like the problem wasn't solved, merely "adjusted"! :-) (end of good natured jibe) Your post does make an excellent point- there is almost as much difference between types of powerboats as there is between powerboating and sailing. When we motor along at 8 knots in our trawler, we have a lot more in common with a guy motoring along at 8 knots in a sloop than with somebody slaloming through a group of boats in an express cruiser doing 25. |
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you get that information reading a free West Marine catalog.
I gotta say that there are a lot of potential boaters who need the very basic information covered by one of these courses. Yes, they start with "this is the hull, this is the keel, this is port and this is starboard." But you'd be surprised how many people don't know such things, let alone red right returning. |
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JAXAshby wrote in message ... you get that information reading a free West Marine catalog. I gotta say that there are a lot of potential boaters who need the very basic information covered by one of these courses. Yes, they start with "this is the hull, this is the keel, this is port and this is starboard." But you'd be surprised how many people don't know such things, let alone red right returning. or right of way rules.......under power or sail. |
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Jax gets most of his information from reading various "catalogs" and
boating magazines. As for the "rules" he doesn't need to know them, as he's never allowed to steer or have any control, when crewing. otn Don White wrote: JAXAshby wrote in message ... you get that information reading a free West Marine catalog. I gotta say that there are a lot of potential boaters who need the very basic information covered by one of these courses. Yes, they start with "this is the hull, this is the keel, this is port and this is starboard." But you'd be surprised how many people don't know such things, let alone red right returning. or right of way rules.......under power or sail. |
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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:21:52 GMT, "O:P\)" wrote:
What are you opinions? Please, I need as much info as you folks can provide from you past experiences. I sail out of Toronto and bought a 33' foot sailboat as my first boat. It's five years later and I am saving for a somewhat bigger boat to go world-cruising. So I would have to say I've embraced the concept with both arms... I don't want to make any more mistakes than what I have to when buying a boat. Any good surveyors in Toronto area? Plenty. At your level of experience, it would be foolhardy NOT to use one. Check out GAM, Lake Ontario Sailor, www.boatforsale.org, and the various local brokers online. Should I look for a private deal or I'm better of with a broker? Very hard to say. I went private and got a very satisfactory deal....AFTER the surveyor gave an intelligent look at the deficiencies (many) of the boat (few were, however, insurmountable or deal-breakers, and now, most are fixed and/or "better than factory"). Old boats are cheap for a reason, and your level of handiness and/or williness to do your own repairs will determine whether you go for a simple old boat or a more complex newer one. Fewer things will need fixing on the newer boat, but will be more expensive when they inevitably break. Or when you, in the first flush of sailing experience, break them by mistake. If I tell a broker that I want to spend around 10 thousand, will he take me seriously? (his commission will be much lower than if I'm looking to spend 250, right?) Not as a percentage. Try online "buy and sells" or the "Buy and Sell" magazines sold at convenience stores. 10 grand can still get you a decent middle-aged 25 footer daysailer, or a couple of Sharks, or whatever. It's up to you to determine the kind of sailing (racing, cruising, dawdling at dock, or above of the above) which in turn will help you narrow your choices. Boat club bulletin boards and web sites have a lot of good private deals, too. It's morbid to say, but the best deals are found when a careful old hobbyist keeps his old-fashioned, dark and wood-filled old vessel in perfect running order for 25 years, dies, and his boat-hating family low-balls it for a quick sale. The man's boat, which is frequently his refuge, goes for a song because it's not modern and sleek and it needs the sort of TLC yards of fibreglass don't...until it gets past 10 years old, that is. Eventually, I would like to take the boat to Florida (Miami area), how long should I plan for a trip like that on a sail boat? Not to be facetious, but as long as you need. If you bought your boat in May, sailed in Lake Ontario in all weather all summer, learned in the fall how to decommission and service your boat, took Power Squadron safety, pilotage and nav courses in the winter and crewed on a Christmas delivery from St. Pete's to the BVIs in February, you would be as skilled as about half of the sailboaters in Miami, and maybe would have more practical heavy weather knowledge. As for sailing/boating schools, any suggestions? Canadian Power Squadron and take an Intro Crew course at a yacht club (many are quite cheap....$250 or so for lessons and a season's worth of hitching rides on boats) and offer to crew for club racing all summer, particularly on the range/size of boat (I'm guess Quarter-Tonner or so) you think you are interested in. Hope this helps. I took a somewhat head-first approach in that I went from Intro Crew to Senior member in a yacht club in one season, and in that I bought a mid-sized cruiser racer. But I found the bigger boat easier to sail, roomy for my crew, and great in all but the nastiest weather. Your mileage may vary. R. |
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Chuck, how's that new diesel working out. Sorry if I missed the "sea
trial" report some where along the line. Quite well, actually, and thanks for asking. A long account of our engine swapping experience follows, should you care to read about the gory details. This was part III of a series about our misadventure. (There were, indeed, a few surprises and oopsoids encountered during the process. This engine will likely last me the rest of my boating life so I won't get to benefit from the learnging experience but somebody else just might.) Heart Transplant, Part III Late summer surrendered to early fall, and "Indulgence" sat restlessly on the hard in Anacortes. As the last fair weather cruising days of 2003 evaporated, our spirits grew as dismal as the weather. Repairing or replacing the engine was not going to be a short process. Our boating was apparently finished for the year. Russ Boggs was our project supervisor at Granville Marine. We asked to have the sound insulation peeled away from the black iron fuel tanks to facilitate inspection, and Russ put the crew to work. "That wasn't in the original estimate," said Russ. "We'll need to add some additional hours, and that will bring the total to [an increased figure]." Russ was very efficient and professional in his approach. We never felt like the cost of our repairs had become a cosmic mystery, (discernable only by an initiated savant with a nuclear powered abacus). We knew that the tank inspection was a critical step. Two new fuel tanks would cost several thousand dollars, and were probably needed based on the age of the boat. The "boat bucks" involved in a tank replacement project would make the difference between rebuilding the original engine or replacing it with a brand new one. Russ called me the afternoon the crew exposed the fuel tanks. "I'm surprised, but they look like they're in decent shape. There is very little surface rust. They look much better than I would have suspected." The same surveyor our insurance company hired to investigate the engine claim also examined the tanks, and expressed an opinion that they remained serviceable. I'm something of a belt-and-suspenders boater, and I wanted a third opinion about the fuel tanks. Our good friend Dick McGrew is a professional marine engineer with an extensive background in systems of all types. Dick happened to be working in Anacortes, and he agreed to drop by Granville and examine the tanks as well. He called the following day. "Your tanks seem to be in good shape," said Dick. "When they built your boat, they did a couple of things that a lot of builders didn't do back then. First, they don't have the fuel tanks sitting directly on the floorboards. They are supported at the corners, so air can circulate underneath and moisture doesn't get trapped. That helps prevent the tanks from rusting away at the bottom. The second thing they did was to put the fuel hose through the side of the tank near the top, rather than down through the top of the tank. A lot of tanks rust out because water seeps past the deck plate, follows the filler hose to the tank, and puddles up on top. If you had seepage past the deck plate on "Indulgence" and it followed the fill hose to the tank, it would just drip off into the bilge." "So, Dick, if it were your boat would replace those fuel tanks?" "No. They seem to have a lot of useful life left. I'd leave them be." I called on Stewart's Marine and told Larry to go ahead and order a new engine. We discussed a critical requirement. "Indulgence" had been built with a counter-rotating engine, a characteristic that provided some significant benefits while maneuvering in close quarters. With the helm on the starboard side of the pilothouse, the visibility is excellent for a starboard landing. The left-hand prop backs the boat to starboard, rather than port. When putting her starboard side next to a dock or a float, the same touch of reverse that stops the forward motion of the boat tucks the stern in against the dock quite handily. I wasn't interested in backing into the aft port quarter "blind spot", and was reluctant to consider changing props. "Perkins doesn't build a counter-rotating engine any more," said Larry. "We make the correction at the gear box. We'll have to change your gear box, too. I'll include a freshly rebuilt transmission." Larry ordered our new 135HP, naturally aspirated Perkins on a handshake. (Not many shops do business like that any more). I went home to stew about possibly cruising at seven or seven-and-a half knots, (rather than eight or better), and wait for the engine to arrive. It was becoming rather apparent that my original goal to bring the entire new engine and installation project together for under $20,000 was not a reality. The new engine and the installation estimate had used up the entire allowance, before sales tax and the inevitable "incidentals". Meet the engine I dropped into Stewart's Marine several days later to inquire about the anticipated delivery date. The new engine had arrived earlier that same morning, and Larry ushered me into the shop to show me the new heart for "Indulgence". I was pleased. The new engine was a beautiful sight. There were many reassuring similarities between the 2003, 135HP naturally aspirated Perkins and the 1982, 165HP turbo I had become so familiar with. Both engines are in-line six cylinders, and I could recognize all the major components. Perkins has become Perkins/Sabre, and incorporated a number of improvements. The exhaust manifold is no longer cooled by seawater, but rather by the engine coolant. Raw water cooled manifolds are ultimately susceptible to corrosion between the water jacket and the exhaust chamber, a condition that could result in a hydrolock failure exactly like we experienced in September. The old Lucas injector pump has been replaced with a more modern system. The coolant pump is driven by a gear rather than a belt. The gear driven pump eliminates the possibility that a broken belt will lead to an overheated engine. Perkins added handy pumps for bleeding the fuel system and extracting oil from the crankcase. Most significantly, there is no row of mysterious black boxes stuffed with circuit boards and computer chips. If and when the new engine requires service or repair, I need only call a diesel mechanic- not a diesel mechanic, a computer programmer, and a rocket scientist to interpret the data. "There are two pressure plates available for this engine," said Larry. "I ordered you the better one. The only problems we have ever experienced with this engine have been some complaints about the other pressure plate failing. We're going to finish checking this out and setting it up today, and then Granville Marine will come and get it." Murphy and his attorney just love boat repairs While the engine room was relatively empty, we had the bilge steam cleaned. I splurged and ordered a fuel management manifold and a second Racor filter installed, enabling filters to be changed underway and improving the ability to detect any fuel problems that might effect only one tank. Granville Marine did an excellent job of designing and installing the fuel manifold. The first of a few inevitable "incidentals" proved to be the exhaust system. "Indulgence" had never been fitted with a muffler, relying on the long exhaust hose between the riser and the transom and the flow of cooling water through the exhaust system to reduce engine noise. The new engine required a muffler, and we had one built by a company in Bellingham. "We need a little extra time to fit the muffler," said Russ Boggs. "When we made the original estimate, we assumed the old engine or one identically configured would be going back in." Fair enough. A day or so later, Russ called me again. "We have to move the stringer brackets several inches to line up with the mounts for the new engine. That's going to take quite a bit more time." I was certainly surprised at this announcement, as Larry had assured me the new engine would fit directly onto the mounts and brackets for the old model. "Let me get back to you, Russ. I think Larry knows a way to mount that engine without moving the stringer brackets. We certainly want to avoid getting into fiberglass work!" Russ spoke to Larry Stewart, and developed a strategy to mount the new engine without moving the stringer brackets. (If Granville had mounted the engine exactly the same way it had been mounted onto the shipping platform, it would have indeed required moving the stringer brackets). The "improved" pressure plate would have been our undoing at this point, had it not been for still more "extra mile" service from Stewart's Marine. The better pressure plate made the engine just slightly longer. The rear mounts were to be connected to the gearbox, (a system that had worked well with the previous engine), and the increased engine length put the gearbox one inch aft of the point where brackets between the engine mounts and the gearbox could be connected. Larry Stewart is a qualified machinist, and he built a set of new brackets to allow the gear to be properly mounted. No charge. The next "incidental" was more significant. Russ Boggs called to ask about gauges and a wiring harness. I then learned that the new engine wasn't compatible with the old gauges. Larry Stewart said, "You have two choices. We can pull the sensors out of the old engine and put them in the new one, and you can splice between the wiring harness and the gauges at a bus bar. Or, you can get a new wiring harness and gauges." We opted to go for the new harness and gauges, doing it right rather than doing it cheaply. Larry called the distributor's warehouse and made arrangements for me to pick up the parts at his discount. Early in January, Russ Boggs called to say "We've got the engine in, and everything is ready to go! We're planning to put your boat in the water and start it up this afternoon." "Aw, nuts!" I said. "I'm just slammed with a deadline today and can't get up to Anacortes. Will you run it around for an hour or so to make sure everything is set to go? And then call me back and tell me how it went, please." The next call from Russ was a bit more unsettling. "We put your boat in the water, but it goes forward when we put in reverse and reverse when we shift it to forward! I've already called Larry Stewart, and it seems that the transmission was incorrectly labeled as a counter rotator. I'm sorry to have to report that your boat has the wrong gearbox." Before I could even respond with a discouraged remark about still more expense and delay, Russ beamed a little sunlight into the situation. "Larry Stewart said to tell you that this isn't your problem. He's going to get the correct transmission, and he will take care of all the labor required to exchange it." Larry found the correct gear box offered for sale at The Second Wave in Fremont. The consignor had represented the unit as a rebuild, but Larry took it to his shop and opened it up on his bench to be sure. "Good thing we did," Larry reported. "The gear box had been rebuilt, but whoever did it used some really cheap parts. I upgraded the plates to something that should last you for many, many, years." Larry sent two men to Anacortes, two days in a row, to exchange the gearbox and align the engine with the prop shaft. No cost to me, and no attempt to shift any "blame" for the snafu. (Not too many people do business like that any more). By the time the gearbox was replaced, the Seattle Boat Show was on and I was committed to a fourteen-day stretch without a day off. "Indulgence" was back in the water and ready to go. We hoped for a weather window the last weekend of January. The results: "Indulgence" loves her new heart. It's true that she no longer cruises 8- 8.5 knots at 1800 RPM, she's at least a half knot faster than that just under 1900! The 135HP engine is rated to turn several hundred RPM faster than the 165, so the higher engine speed at cruise isn't a challenge. Our GPS repeatedly kept teasing us with readings of 9.5 knots, and we even achieved something over 10 for a short period. I think that 10-knot reading was assisted by current, but there is no doubt that the boat is faster than before. She's an easier cruising boat. Our long run from Anacortes to Seattle was less tiresome without the incessant turbo whine. Larry Stewart's crew aligned the engine and shaft so expertly that our audible tachometer no longer operates. With the old engine, we could always make a fairly accurate determination about engine speed by noticing which cabin door or fixture was rattling. As the old engine increased speed, different parts of the boat would respond with harmonic vibrations in a sort of weird symphony- or at least a jam session. Our old veteran is almost as rattle free as a brand new boat. We can't recommend hydrolocking an engine, but we can recommend the service and workmanship at Granville Marine. If I hadn't paid a visit to the shop when the project was half finished, it would be difficult to convince me that the interior of the main cabin had been removed and replaced. The initial estimate was high enough for one to conclude, "That's only a good price if everything goes as promised, the work is extremely good, and there aren't any surprise add-ons or adjustments during the process." Under those criteria, Granville's estimate was a good price. They did an excellent job. While the new Perkins is the star of this drama, "Best Supporting Actor" has to go to Larry Stewart. Larry's service exemplified the type of "customer first" prioritizing that has become increasingly rare in the boat business- or for that matter almost any business. It's easy to see why Stewart's has been in business since the 1960's. We're lucky enough to have a few old pros like Larry still around in the Pacific Northwest, and many of our readers are fortunate enough to enjoy similar service from their regular repair person. (If not, I can introduce them to a good one.) |
power vs sail
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power vs sail
I thank you all very much for the advices and sugestions posted here. I
will be calling the local clubs and see what they have to offer, I already checked their web sites (Humber & QueensQuay: thank you Scott), if there are any others I will apreciate the input. Me and my wife have been reading the postings, and we both agreed that sail its more for us. |
power vs sail
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:25:37 +0000, Gould 0738 wrote:
Chuck, how's that new diesel working out. Sorry if I missed the "sea trial" report some where along the line. Quite well, actually, and thanks for asking. A long account of our engine swapping experience follows, should you care to read about the gory details. This was part III of a series about our misadventure. SNIP Thanks for the great story, Chuck. Sounds like the Operation was a complete success. I Hear You about the "incidentals"! I ended up replacing the entire exhaust system (why did you have a muffler custom-made? Vetus makes some nice ones: www.vetus.com). And I also had some "stringer problems"... I was out last weekend for the first real "outing" with the new engine. Sure was great to be able to buck a 3-knot tide through First Narrows! But my prop is way too steep: I'm getting two inches taken out so I'll be cruising at 6.5knots at 2500 rpm rather than at 2000 where I am now (max rpm is 3000 for this engine). Sure is better than the 5 knots WOT I WAS getting. Anyway, congrats on the new engine! Lloyd Sumpter "Far Cove" Catalina 36 - http://www.user.dccnet.com/lsumpter/engine/ |
power vs sail
Gould 0738 wrote:
A long account of our engine swapping experience follows, should you care to read about the gory details. Hey it's all about details. Thanks a lot for posting this Chuck, it was very interesting reading and will be a big help on our boat too. It sounds like you had pretty good & reliable work... changing the mounts and the transmission is the sort of rock that sinks a lot of big projects, but your guys pulled through. I hope this season is a really good one for you all! Fair Skies Doug King |
power vs sail
(why did you have a muffler custom-made? Vetus makes some nice
ones: www.vetus.com). At just over $100, it wasn't really anything more than buying something from the big box store. Any time I can patronize a local guy without being taken all the way to the cleaners and back, I will. |
power vs sail
O:P) wrote in message le.rogers.com... I thank you all very much for the advices and sugestions posted here. I will be calling the local clubs and see what they have to offer, I already checked their web sites (Humber & QueensQuay: thank you Scott), if there are any others I will apreciate the input. Me and my wife have been reading the postings, and we both agreed that sail its more for us. Try this club also. If you meet a guy named Ken wintering on a Niagara 35...say Hi and tell him I sent you :-) *** http://www.tscc.net/index.phtml *** |
power vs sail
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:19:41 GMT, "O:P\)" wrote:
I thank you all very much for the advices and sugestions posted here. I will be calling the local clubs and see what they have to offer, I already checked their web sites (Humber & QueensQuay: thank you Scott), if there are any others I will apreciate the input. Me and my wife have been reading the postings, and we both agreed that sail its more for us. Check out the National Yacht Club (mine, naturally!) We have a great introductory crew program ($250 for eight weeks instruction and a season of being in the Crew Bank) and a very active weeknight race program. I learned more in one year of racing than in five years of cruising, and now I cruise with more confidence and I daresay efficiency, thanks to crewing on other peoples' boats. National Yacht Club (416) 260-8686 www.thenyc.com R. |
power vs sail
"O:P\)" wrote in message able.rogers.com...
I am playing with the idea of a boat. I'm new to boating. What would you folks recommend, power or sail? Do I need extra skills for sail boats? One more question, do I need a license? and if yes, where do I get it? I'm in Toronto. If you are young and energetic, buy a sailboat. If you are older and less agile than in earlier years, buy power. I sailed and raced for first 30 years of owning boats. One day, returning to home club on hot sunny summer and windless day after the race was cancelled, I decided my sailing days were ended - no more pushing and pulling strings. Two weeks later I bought a Grand Banks trawler and for past 16 years have owned power boats. Each was suitable for my age and physical status. Now, nearly 70, I like the comfort and relatively higher speed of power, i.e., running away from storms and especially lightening. I am also on the way down in length of boats, from 70 feet to present boat, a 43 Eastbay. |
power vs sail
Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:21:52 GMT, "O:P\)" wrote: 3.time. I have my own enterprise and my time is kind of limited (the money too), but I know I can make time for a boat, here and there couple of days. So this is something else to consider for me. If I'm going to buy a boat, I prefer to tide 15 thousand as opposed to 50 thousand on a boat that I'll use 5-6 times a year. You don't want your own boat for that little use. Join a sailing club to learn and use club boats. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Smoking in a bar is like peeing in a punchbowl. What about chewing in a bar? |
power vs sail
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:31:23 GMT, "Don White"
wrote: Try this club also. If you meet a guy named Ken wintering on a Niagara 35...say Hi and tell him I sent you :-) *** http://www.tscc.net/index.phtml *** Ken and Lynn are wintering over at Spadina Quay Marina, and I think they are going to Queen City, mainly because of the facilities and draft are more appropriate for the bigger boat. They are excellent people to talk to, however, and have just gone through this process aided by scrupulous research and many lines of investigation. You could do a lot worse. R. |
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