On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Well, the idea is to have furling on the most used sails: staysail and
jib. In heavy weather, you have the mizzen and a staysail, or maybe
1/3 jib unrolled. Yes, they can be pokey and they don't point well
compared to a sloop, but they have other advantages on broad reaches
and the like. Personally, I don't find another stick a big hassle, but
it's a great place to mount the radar and other bits and pieces.

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

You know, I haven't seen that particular widow-maker on ANY schooner
or ketch outside of a picture book. I agree that they're a menace, but
I can't say I believe anyone seriously uses them anymore.


The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself.

Yes, with a taller mast, which means bigger main, etc. What I like is
the committed staysail stay, which can be the last sail up in big
wind, and yet is far kinder to drive than a mostly rolled up yankee,
say.

The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition.

No, it doesn't. But the possibility is there, and I find I can handle
a marginally larger ketch than sloop due to individual sail areas. I
lose on pointing, but gain on downwind. Also, when you comtemplate
less-common options, like a mizzen spinnaker, you can rig maximum sail
for prolonged light-air conditions.

I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

Maybe. But I would hesitate to make blanket statements of that kind
other than I agree they don't point as high generally.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

Sure, but if anti-ketch sentiments prevail, I'll get a great deal and
will save enough to re-rig, right? G

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

Yawls are great, too, in certain conditions and waters, but I bet
Don's one of the few people who can still sail one effectively. You
see the occasional new ketch design, but a yawl? Not unless it's
custom.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

I find a ketch solves most of the problems of a schooner, unless I am
delivering tea from China to Baltimore, in which case I'll go with the
schooner. Recall "Atlantic": schooners are no slouches, or don't have
to be.

snip


SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

I can anticipate how you view junk rigs or gaff-rigs...G

R.

rhys wrote: On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800,
....snip a lotta good discussion...
Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing. Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

See ya,

Frank

On 26 Mar 2004 11:53:18 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

Well,. that's understandable. In my news reader, I try to spot a flash
of red (unread) among hordes of black (read or ignored) type.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

Ah, the beauty of Usenet. Loads of information and critical thought
and none of it paid for.


I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing.

I once heard a similar justification for sleeping with ugly, stupid
people. Sometimes sitting at home is better than going out with loud
morons who haven't a clue and let the hoses rot off the rusted open
thru-hulls. But that's, thankfully, the exception.


Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

Hey, if I find a deal I won't quibble G I might very well change my
thinking, particularly if I decide I want to circumnavigate east to
west G But a ketch still has, in my mind, some advantages,
particularly with a hefty inner forestay and a functional staysail. I
mean, I have a sloop, but one of my favourite points of sail is a beam
reach using a No. 3 on a pendant and my barely used, wire luff "genoa
staysail", a big light thing the original owner evidently couldn't
figure out. I had to reference a brilliant 1975 book called "Sail
Power" by Wally Ross to learn how to set the thing. (It involved the
toerails!)

But in ten knots, that amount of sail will trounce even the biggest
No. 1 and mainsail combo. Anyway, I still have some things to learn
about sloops, so I hope I live long enough to master the ketch. When I
SEE a cat-schooner, I'll try to hitch a ride. I think I saw exactly
one here in Toronto...at a distance. It seemed to move fine G

R.

rhys wrote:
...snip... When I
SEE a cat-schooner, I'll try to hitch a ride. I think I saw exactly
one here in Toronto...at a distance. It seemed to move fine G

AFAIK, only the F39 is scoonerish. The F40, F44, and F33 are all
cat-ketches; and an occasional other size of Freedom is set up as a
cat-ketch. The masts are approximately equal or the forward mast is
taller. But for the F39, the forward mast is distinctly shorter. That
particular boat also comes in a pilothouse and non-pilothouse version.
Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse version.

Frank

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On 26 Mar 2004 11:53:18 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

I have a sloop, but one of my favourite points of sail is a beam
reach using a No. 3 on a pendant and my barely used, wire luff "genoa
staysail", a big light thing the original owner evidently couldn't
figure out. I had to reference a brilliant 1975 book called "Sail
Power" by Wally Ross to learn how to set the thing. (It involved the
toerails!)

But in ten knots, that amount of sail will trounce even the biggest
No. 1 and mainsail combo.

I have waxed poetic about the genoa staysail many times in this
forum. I think if people actually discovered how useful these
things were the cutter rig would become deriguer again ;=)
It really can't be beat on a close reach (except by maybe a code
zero), and if you're cruising it's a great sail in light to moderate
wind. The GS is hanked on above the heavy staysail, and
when the wind increases the GS comes off pretty quickly and the
heavy is hoisted. Beats the heck out of firing up the noisemaker
(particulalry when it's warm out). I have found in the light stuff
that if you give up and fire up the engine, it normally stays on.
But, if you have good sails that are easy to change you stay
involved in the sailing side and work your way through the
variable winds.

Matt

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:24:21 GMT, "Matt/Meribeth Pedersen"
wrote:

But, if you have good sails that are easy to change you stay
involved in the sailing side and work your way through the
variable winds.

Amen, brother. I use the engine to get out and in of the basin and if
the angle's right, not until I have to turn that first 90 around the
docks.

Motorsailing's fine when necessary, but a lot of people have a funny
idea to my mind of what "necessary" means. Think of it this way.
Today, you are sailing. All day, and maybe into the evening. You may
or may not have a destination. Turn off the cell phone and engine and
just...sail....Better than a session in the hot tub to my mind,
although coming back from the boat TO a hot tub would be kingly
indeed.

R.