(Bob Whitaker) asked:
....snip...
P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?
....snip...

Well, you've perhaps already guessed my response. grin

Frank's Rig Rant
aka My Opinion and Welcome to It

KETCHES

I have a coupla years of ownership of, and a decent amount of offshore miles
on, ketches (the one I owned and, later, my father-in-law's). Like many of
the other boat types I've spurned in this thread, I find them lovely to look
at, elegant in repose, nautical in presentation, and pretty much a slow
pain-in-the-ass as a sailboat on all but a couple of points of sail. Allow
me to rant against ketches for a bit.

Their defenders claim many advantages to this rig: two masts for redundancy
in case of a dismasting; split sailplan gives easier sail handling; multiple
masts and the various types of sails they support allow unparalleled ability
to match your canvas to conditions; ...have I forgotten anything?

So, my response is:

Split sail plans make sail handling easier. Sure, in 1904, when some poor
sucker had to go below, carry up a heavy, wet canvas sail, hank it on, then
haul it up the wooden mast with a hemp rope using primitive types of
mechanical advantage. But this is 2004. Who nowadays does not have a roller
furling jib? Hell! Even some racers have 'em. You no longer hafta change
headsails for every 5 knots of wind. And as for difficulties in hauling
halyards... if you're experiencing exasperation, buy bigger Barients. I see
lots of traditional cruisers with POWERED winches. Come on, this is not a
realistic factor. In my experience, split sailplans simply add to your
workload. Not that big a deal in mild conditions; but we all seem to love to
talk about "heavy weather" and 'big seas." Me, I'm lazy. I want my life to
be easy in easy conditions and I *need* my life to be easy in complicated
conditions. When a squall comes up, the sloop reels in a couple reefs on the
main with his single-line reefing, rolls in the jib some, and he's ready. Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself. The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition. I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

Well, actually I'm gonna make two exceptions to my general rant here. I
would endorse the Freedom cat-ketches; plus, there's a Freedom cat-schooner
(I don't know what else you'd call the Freedom 39), which I'd endorse. Of
course, these rigs are pretty alien to a "normal" ketch or schooner; so it's
really a case of apples and oranges.

CUTTERS

My simplest response is that I don't see any realistic benefit to a cutter
over a sloop, just expensive, unnecessary complications. People talk about
"balancing the rig" and all that kinda mystical sail trim stuff; but IMO if
you have a well designed sloop (and I grant that that's a measurable "if"),
you can balance just as easily. No, make that *easier* 'cause you only have
two sails to deal with rather than three. And on those *occasional*days when
you're not in survival weather, you avoid the complications of additional
rigging and sails. Think having to walk the jib around when you tack. Now
think about doing that in heavy seas. You gonna do it or you gonna send your
wife forward? Parenthetically, cutters sometimes (often) push the jib out
onto a bowsprit. Ick! Ick! Ick! Bowsprits are another one of those things
which I like to look at on other people's boats; but damned if I want one.
The sea is an unforgiving environment. Why give it an easy way to destroy
your rig and tear holes in your boat?

SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

And that's my $.02 on *that* one. wink

Frank

(Bob Whitaker) asked:
P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?


"vs" as in racing? No question, the sloop is better hands down. That's
why the other rigs get a rating bonus... for a while back in the 1950s
the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.


Frank Maier wrote:
Well, you've perhaps already guessed my response. grin

Frank's Rig Rant
aka My Opinion and Welcome to It

KETCHES

I have a coupla years of ownership of, and a decent amount of offshore miles
on, ketches (the one I owned and, later, my father-in-law's). Like many of
the other boat types I've spurned in this thread, I find them lovely to look
at, elegant in repose, nautical in presentation, and pretty much a slow
pain-in-the-ass as a sailboat on all but a couple of points of sail. Allow
me to rant against ketches for a bit.

No no, stop.... oops, too late


Their defenders claim many advantages to this rig: two masts for redundancy
in case of a dismasting; split sailplan gives easier sail handling; multiple
masts and the various types of sails they support allow unparalleled ability
to match your canvas to conditions; ...have I forgotten anything?

Better balance on different points of sail? That might be included in
matching canvas to conditions. How about a lower sailplan causing less
heeling moment, and less stress on the hull?



So, my response is:

Split sail plans make sail handling easier. Sure, in 1904, when some poor
sucker had to go below, carry up a heavy, wet canvas sail, hank it on, then
haul it up the wooden mast with a hemp rope using primitive types of
mechanical advantage. But this is 2004. Who nowadays does not have a roller
furling jib? Hell! Even some racers have 'em. You no longer hafta change
headsails for every 5 knots of wind. And as for difficulties in hauling
halyards... if you're experiencing exasperation, buy bigger Barients. I see
lots of traditional cruisers with POWERED winches. Come on, this is not a
realistic factor. In my experience, split sailplans simply add to your
workload.

It also adds to the maintenance workload, and rigging does not last
forever. When you have to replace extra line, not to mention standing
rigging, the bill will be substantial.

... Not that big a deal in mild conditions; but we all seem to love to
talk about "heavy weather" and 'big seas." Me, I'm lazy. I want my life to
be easy in easy conditions and I *need* my life to be easy in complicated
conditions. When a squall comes up, the sloop reels in a couple reefs on the
main with his single-line reefing, rolls in the jib some, and he's ready. Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Agreed definitely. One of the most fun boats I've sailed, 'fun' for all
the wrong reasons, was a 40-ish foot steel ketch owned by the Great
Lakes Naval Training Center Sailing Club. It had been donated long ago,
and was kind of tired but well preserved under three inches of gray
paint. The Navy in it's wisdom had welded pad eyes at many odd places
about the deck, which came in handy when trying out different sail
combinations. That boat had been gutted, no cabin whatever, just a big
steel box. It also had a sail inventory that God would envy, there were
at least twenty five BIG bags and dozens of small ones... although to be
fair some of the small ones were the clubs racing-dinghy sails, which
often got used as mizzens & mizzen staysails.

It was a fun boat to sail on the cold & often rough waters of Lake
Michigan. It was also a very wet boat... it didn't lift much to choppy
waves and would throw trainloads of water over the crew. But we had a
great time experimenting mizzen staysails and tallboys and spinnakers
and watersails and huge ballooners sheeted to the mizzen boom etc etc.

Does everyone see why I say it "was a fun boat for all the wrong
reasons?" Even with a fully outfitted cabin, it would be a poor cruising
boat (which probably explains why it was donated to the Navy).

BTW this boat was rumored to have once belonged to Humphrey Bogart.


... (great material regretfully snipped for brevity)...
For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

And he is also notorious for asking other sailors to give him a tow

Aside from that petty sniping "Iolare" is an awesome boat... I'm just
not dedicated enough to own such masterpiece.



CUTTERS

My simplest response is that I don't see any realistic benefit to a cutter
over a sloop, just expensive, unnecessary complications. People talk about
"balancing the rig" and all that kinda mystical sail trim stuff; but IMO if
you have a well designed sloop (and I grant that that's a measurable "if"),
you can balance just as easily. No, make that *easier* 'cause you only have
two sails to deal with rather than three.

If you're talking about cutters compared to sloops, then sure... but I'd
say that a ketch is (and some but not all yawls are) easier to balance.
You can move the center of effort much further forward or aft, and the
sheeting vectors don't yank the boat around as unpredictably. Yawls are
not as good because while they can move the CE well aft, they don't
benefit as much the other way (moving the CE forward) by furling the
mizzen, since so many yawls are already sloops with an added mizzen anyway.


With regard to rig redundancy, which Frank mentioned but in another
context... many people talk about how rigs with more standing rigging
are more secure. This ignores the basic engineering fact that each stay
puts a compression load on the mast. More stays equal more compression.
If designed by a capable engineer, more stays *can* be stronger but it
ain't necessarily so.

They also equal more places where bits of metal are bolted to the hull
and need periodic maintenance, and more potential failure points.

OK, I've had it for intelligent discussion... can I call somebody names
now? C'mere jax jax jax, I got a cookie for ya

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.

the mizzen sail on a yawl is an easy, effective way to balance a boat's sails.
This can be more important on a larger boat with a tiller for steering.

the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.


JAXAshby wrote:
the mizzen sail on a yawl is an easy, effective way to balance a boat's sails.
This can be more important on a larger boat with a tiller for steering.

That's *certainly* true... many's the time I have sailed large sloops
with tillers, wishing I had a way to set more sail area aft so that the
boat would have *more* weather helm...

DSK

Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop. And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

Sheldon


That's *certainly* true... many's the time I have sailed large sloops
with tillers, wishing I had a way to set more sail area aft so that the
boat would have *more* weather helm...

DSK


--
Sheldon Haynie
Texas Instruments
50 Phillipe Cote
Manchester, NH 03101
603 222 8652

Should I have put a smiley on that last post?
Sheldon Haynie wrote:
Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop.

Maybe it depends on how you define "properly designed." Some of the
yawls I've sailed in company with were old low-aspect sloops with the
boom docked and a mizzen stuck in place. Most of those are gone now.
OTOH we have a dock neighbor with a Seafarer 34, originally a yawl, but
now sailed as a sloop, and the owner reports that it handles the same
and that they always dropped the mizzen anyway when beating.

In some of the old advertising brochures, such as the Allieds or the
Cape Dories, you can see the sailplans for the yawl version right next
to the sloop version... is the mast in the same spot?

IIRC the Bermuda 40 was never offered as a sloop?


... And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

Agreed. One more advantage of a centerboard. Plus you can get it up out
of the way going downwind.


You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

I kind of like having the mizzen mast right where it is handy. It makes
a nice secure hand hold and a great mounting point for radar. It does
get in the way of the solar panel arch though

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 3/23/04 6:36 PM, in article ,
"DSK" wrote:

Should I have put a smiley on that last post?
Sheldon Haynie wrote:
Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop.

Maybe it depends on how you define "properly designed." Some of the
yawls I've sailed in company with were old low-aspect sloops with the
boom docked and a mizzen stuck in place.

Well most rig options/conversion are not per se a good design, but a
compromise. In very light breeze, without the mizzen, we can get a lee helm,
sort of a reminder to put the bow down and drive.


Most of those are gone now.
OTOH we have a dock neighbor with a Seafarer 34, originally a yawl, but
now sailed as a sloop, and the owner reports that it handles the same
and that they always dropped the mizzen anyway when beating.


As do we, careful measurement shows faster upwind (there is an oxymoronic
comment for CCA designs) without.


In some of the old advertising brochures, such as the Allieds or the
Cape Dories, you can see the sailplans for the yawl version right next
to the sloop version... is the mast in the same spot?

IIRC the Bermuda 40 was never offered as a sloop?


The B-40 was offered as sloop or Yawl, the mast was raised 2 ft in Mark II
and raised a further 2 ft and moved 2ft aft in the Mark III if I recall.



... And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

Agreed. One more advantage of a centerboard. Plus you can get it up out
of the way going downwind.

Or come right into the beach at 4' draft



You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

I kind of like having the mizzen mast right where it is handy. It makes
a nice secure hand hold and a great mounting point for radar. It does
get in the way of the solar panel arch though

Well my mizzen carries the radar, fog horn, various antenna, flags and such.
A Solar arch or davits is sort of a compromise too, handy but not my idea of
a good design feature... Then again many would look at my brightwork and
run.



Fresh Breezes- Doug King


--
Sheldon Haynie
Texas Instruments
50 Phillipe Cote
Manchester, NH 03101
603 222 8652

On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Well, the idea is to have furling on the most used sails: staysail and
jib. In heavy weather, you have the mizzen and a staysail, or maybe
1/3 jib unrolled. Yes, they can be pokey and they don't point well
compared to a sloop, but they have other advantages on broad reaches
and the like. Personally, I don't find another stick a big hassle, but
it's a great place to mount the radar and other bits and pieces.

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

You know, I haven't seen that particular widow-maker on ANY schooner
or ketch outside of a picture book. I agree that they're a menace, but
I can't say I believe anyone seriously uses them anymore.


The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself.

Yes, with a taller mast, which means bigger main, etc. What I like is
the committed staysail stay, which can be the last sail up in big
wind, and yet is far kinder to drive than a mostly rolled up yankee,
say.

The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition.

No, it doesn't. But the possibility is there, and I find I can handle
a marginally larger ketch than sloop due to individual sail areas. I
lose on pointing, but gain on downwind. Also, when you comtemplate
less-common options, like a mizzen spinnaker, you can rig maximum sail
for prolonged light-air conditions.

I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

Maybe. But I would hesitate to make blanket statements of that kind
other than I agree they don't point as high generally.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

Sure, but if anti-ketch sentiments prevail, I'll get a great deal and
will save enough to re-rig, right? G

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

Yawls are great, too, in certain conditions and waters, but I bet
Don's one of the few people who can still sail one effectively. You
see the occasional new ketch design, but a yawl? Not unless it's
custom.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

I find a ketch solves most of the problems of a schooner, unless I am
delivering tea from China to Baltimore, in which case I'll go with the
schooner. Recall "Atlantic": schooners are no slouches, or don't have
to be.

snip


SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

I can anticipate how you view junk rigs or gaff-rigs...G

R.

rhys wrote: On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800,
....snip a lotta good discussion...
Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing. Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

See ya,

Frank

On 26 Mar 2004 11:53:18 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

Well,. that's understandable. In my news reader, I try to spot a flash
of red (unread) among hordes of black (read or ignored) type.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

Ah, the beauty of Usenet. Loads of information and critical thought
and none of it paid for.


I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing.

I once heard a similar justification for sleeping with ugly, stupid
people. Sometimes sitting at home is better than going out with loud
morons who haven't a clue and let the hoses rot off the rusted open
thru-hulls. But that's, thankfully, the exception.


Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

Hey, if I find a deal I won't quibble G I might very well change my
thinking, particularly if I decide I want to circumnavigate east to
west G But a ketch still has, in my mind, some advantages,
particularly with a hefty inner forestay and a functional staysail. I
mean, I have a sloop, but one of my favourite points of sail is a beam
reach using a No. 3 on a pendant and my barely used, wire luff "genoa
staysail", a big light thing the original owner evidently couldn't
figure out. I had to reference a brilliant 1975 book called "Sail
Power" by Wally Ross to learn how to set the thing. (It involved the
toerails!)

But in ten knots, that amount of sail will trounce even the biggest
No. 1 and mainsail combo. Anyway, I still have some things to learn
about sloops, so I hope I live long enough to master the ketch. When I
SEE a cat-schooner, I'll try to hitch a ride. I think I saw exactly
one here in Toronto...at a distance. It seemed to move fine G

R.