(some snippage for brevity)

Bob Whitaker wrote:
Thanks for the input. What are the features you like most about them?

Frank Maier wrote:
The boat which owns my heart, my "Platonic ideal" best boat, is the
Freedom 38. I fell in love with Freedoms after about 20 years of
sailing, both racing and cruising. When Garry Hoyt/Freedom/TPI
produced these boats, it was, for me, an epiphany. Holy ****! Why
hasn't this been done before? Well, it sorta had been. Catboats have
been around for quite a while. Just materials, like carbonfiber masts,
and specifics of design were the innovations which Hoyt gave us with
the Freedom line.

Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.

http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/


... To give you a "sales pitch" for the idea of buying a
Freedom 32...

The single "best" feature of Freedoms is their single-handing ability.
Even the 'chute can be flown by one person, launched and doused from
the cockpit. Their construction is second to none (built by TPI). They
have no standing rigging, which means no holes through your deck to
admit water, nothing to break, and nothing to replace every decade or
so. I've never sailed a 32 specifically. I've been in pretty nasty
squally weather on a 30 and a 36 (which is the 38 without the
sugarscoop). Thye use single-line reefing, which again speaks to
convenience for a single-hander and makes it easy to respond swiftly
to deteriorating conditions. (Or easy to catch up if you kinda stay
overcanvassed too long and get behind. Something which I have a
tendency to be guilty of.)

There are a lot of fine boats out there; but Freedom is at/near the
top of my personal list. However, like I said, given my prejudices,
the Crealock, Cape Dory, et al. are boats which are nowhere near my
list, not even at the bottom, although you and many others find them
attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
(some snippage for brevity)
Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.
http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/

....snip...

Yes. The Gary Mull design. It's interesting to me that you included
this particular link. This boat is/was "Nereid" and recently sold here
in Seattle for less than $60K. Broke my heart to pass it up. (Note:
most F38's are asking over $100K up to around $125K.) Nereid's
previous owner purchased a F44 (kind of a stretched 40 with a fin
rather than centerboard and a skeg-hung rudder rather than the
stern-hung of the 40) in New Orleans and is currently working on that
boat in preparation for "heading out." His website is
http://www.brigup.com if you're interested in his experiences.

I took a hard look at both this boat and the F44 in New Orleans before
we made a family decision to RV around the U.S. for a couple of years
now, before going cruising; so it was an interesting karma-type thing
for me that the New Orleans F44 was bought by the Seattle F38 guy. We
have two kids, so the roominess of the 44 is attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

Here's one of those areas where I agree with you, in opposition to
"conventional cruising wisdom." When people like the Pardeys start
with a heavy, slow boat and then recommend that you use a roachless,
battenless main to power it... Ack! I just gotta cringe.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Agreed. Much as I'm anti-crabcrusher, I agree that I'd be willing to
have a F40, although I do prefer the design after Halsey Herreshoff
helped Hoyt clean up that "pirate ship" look of his prototype 40 a
bit. I think we've touched on this a bit before, maybe in
alt.sailing.asa?

The newest Freedom offerings, designed by Pedrick, are, IMO, growing
back toward mediocrity and away from Hoyt's innovation. I mean, you
can now get 'em with running backs in order to fly gennys. That's not
the Freedom concept. And at the prices, I could just as well buy a
nice used Swan, if I want a boat with standing rigging.

And that's my $.02,

Frank

Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36


On 16 Mar 2004 21:15:42 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

DSK wrote:
(some snippage for brevity)
Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.
http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/

...snip...

Yes. The Gary Mull design. It's interesting to me that you included
this particular link. This boat is/was "Nereid" and recently sold here
in Seattle for less than $60K. Broke my heart to pass it up. (Note:
most F38's are asking over $100K up to around $125K.) Nereid's
previous owner purchased a F44 (kind of a stretched 40 with a fin
rather than centerboard and a skeg-hung rudder rather than the
stern-hung of the 40) in New Orleans and is currently working on that
boat in preparation for "heading out." His website is
http://www.brigup.com if you're interested in his experiences.

I took a hard look at both this boat and the F44 in New Orleans before
we made a family decision to RV around the U.S. for a couple of years
now, before going cruising; so it was an interesting karma-type thing
for me that the New Orleans F44 was bought by the Seattle F38 guy. We
have two kids, so the roominess of the 44 is attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

Here's one of those areas where I agree with you, in opposition to
"conventional cruising wisdom." When people like the Pardeys start
with a heavy, slow boat and then recommend that you use a roachless,
battenless main to power it... Ack! I just gotta cringe.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Agreed. Much as I'm anti-crabcrusher, I agree that I'd be willing to
have a F40, although I do prefer the design after Halsey Herreshoff
helped Hoyt clean up that "pirate ship" look of his prototype 40 a
bit. I think we've touched on this a bit before, maybe in
alt.sailing.asa?

The newest Freedom offerings, designed by Pedrick, are, IMO, growing
back toward mediocrity and away from Hoyt's innovation. I mean, you
can now get 'em with running backs in order to fly gennys. That's not
the Freedom concept. And at the prices, I could just as well buy a
nice used Swan, if I want a boat with standing rigging.

And that's my $.02,

Frank

Marc wrote:
Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36

Hi, Marc,

I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough
personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My
opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much
faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And,
unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited
market.

Frank

There are ,anecdotally, a large percentage of Freedom owners who's
choice of future boats lies only within the Freedom family. I don't
have any idea how this degree of brand loyalty compares with other
makes and owners, but it is vociferous, myself included, and
noteworthy due to the radically different rig and construction
methods.


On 17 Mar 2004 12:57:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Marc wrote:
Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36

Hi, Marc,

I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough
personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My
opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much
faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And,
unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited
market.

Frank

You may want to check out John Neal's site at
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#anchor30535563 for his comments and list

Marc wrote:
There are ,anecdotally, a large percentage of Freedom owners who's
choice of future boats lies only within the Freedom family. I don't
have any idea how this degree of brand loyalty compares with other
makes and owners, but it is vociferous, myself included, and
noteworthy due to the radically different rig and construction
methods.

I understand this comment and agree that it's likely, if somewhat
unprovable. Unfortunately, as I said in another comment, I find the
newest (Pedrick) designs, the 35 and 40/40, less attractive (less
"Freedomish"?)than the earlier ones. So, I wonder what the future
holds for the Freedom line/concept.

I chartered a F35 for two weeks a coupla years ago just to see how I
liked it compared to previous types, like the Mull 36/38. It was
certainly fun, and still more attractive to me than most "standard"
sloops; but I much prefer the Mull 36/38. And, because the 36/38s are
older, they're cheaper. Cool!

Maybe Freedom just needs a new motto: Once you've sailed a Freedom,
you'll never go back!

I pretty much agree with that.