(Bob Whitaker) wrote: Frank Maier wrote:

I'm a big fan of the Freedom line; so, my recommendation
would be an early 80s Freedom 32, with a sugarscoop added
to make it a 34.

Hello Frank,

Thanks for the input. What are the features you like most about them?
Is it their sailing characteristics? Is it your familiarity with them
and loyalty to your first love? (a perfectly valid reason ) Is it
their strength? Workmanship? Have you been caught in nasty weather in
one? How did it handle? I know that this is a question without a
single answer. There's probably as many answers to this question as
there are 34 foot models out there. But it would be fun compiling a
list of the top 10, and the reasons why their owners felt that way. I
may try to post another thread one of these days, seeing as the
original post quickly turned to a mud-slinging festival.

Thanks,

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"

Without doing a Ph.D. dissertation length post, I'll state that, as a
class, I don't like heavy displacement cruisers. In your subject line
you allude to "blue water cruisers." That's what got you and Doug King
at loggerheads. From reading his posts over the years, I find that I
tend to agree with Doug much of the time. You also meantioned the
Crealock 34, a boat which, IMHO, falls into this category, a boat
which I would *hate* to sail on. So, those are my prejudices for you
to factor into my comments.

Also like Doug, the idea of a "project boat" is anathema to me; but I
understand that we're all different; and if it's something you enjoy,
then good for you.

The boat which owns my heart, my "Platonic ideal" best boat, is the
Freedom 38. I fell in love with Freedoms after about 20 years of
sailing, both racing and cruising. When Garry Hoyt/Freedom/TPI
produced these boats, it was, for me, an epiphany. Holy ****! Why
hasn't this been done before? Well, it sorta had been. Catboats have
been around for quite a while. Just materials, like carbonfiber masts,
and specifics of design were the innovations which Hoyt gave us with
the Freedom line. To give you a "sales pitch" for the idea of buying a
Freedom 32...

The single "best" feature of Freedoms is their single-handing ability.
Even the 'chute can be flown by one person, launched and doused from
the cockpit. Their construction is second to none (built by TPI). They
have no standing rigging, which means no holes through your deck to
admit water, nothing to break, and nothing to replace every decade or
so. I've never sailed a 32 specifically. I've been in pretty nasty
squally weather on a 30 and a 36 (which is the 38 without the
sugarscoop). Thye use single-line reefing, which again speaks to
convenience for a single-hander and makes it easy to respond swiftly
to deteriorating conditions. (Or easy to catch up if you kinda stay
overcanvassed too long and get behind. Something which I have a
tendency to be guilty of.)

There are a lot of fine boats out there; but Freedom is at/near the
top of my personal list. However, like I said, given my prejudices,
the Crealock, Cape Dory, et al. are boats which are nowhere near my
list, not even at the bottom, although you and many others find them
attractive.

Good luck,

Frank

(some snippage for brevity)

Bob Whitaker wrote:
Thanks for the input. What are the features you like most about them?

Frank Maier wrote:
The boat which owns my heart, my "Platonic ideal" best boat, is the
Freedom 38. I fell in love with Freedoms after about 20 years of
sailing, both racing and cruising. When Garry Hoyt/Freedom/TPI
produced these boats, it was, for me, an epiphany. Holy ****! Why
hasn't this been done before? Well, it sorta had been. Catboats have
been around for quite a while. Just materials, like carbonfiber masts,
and specifics of design were the innovations which Hoyt gave us with
the Freedom line.

Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.

http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/


... To give you a "sales pitch" for the idea of buying a
Freedom 32...

The single "best" feature of Freedoms is their single-handing ability.
Even the 'chute can be flown by one person, launched and doused from
the cockpit. Their construction is second to none (built by TPI). They
have no standing rigging, which means no holes through your deck to
admit water, nothing to break, and nothing to replace every decade or
so. I've never sailed a 32 specifically. I've been in pretty nasty
squally weather on a 30 and a 36 (which is the 38 without the
sugarscoop). Thye use single-line reefing, which again speaks to
convenience for a single-hander and makes it easy to respond swiftly
to deteriorating conditions. (Or easy to catch up if you kinda stay
overcanvassed too long and get behind. Something which I have a
tendency to be guilty of.)

There are a lot of fine boats out there; but Freedom is at/near the
top of my personal list. However, like I said, given my prejudices,
the Crealock, Cape Dory, et al. are boats which are nowhere near my
list, not even at the bottom, although you and many others find them
attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
(some snippage for brevity)
Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.
http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/

....snip...

Yes. The Gary Mull design. It's interesting to me that you included
this particular link. This boat is/was "Nereid" and recently sold here
in Seattle for less than $60K. Broke my heart to pass it up. (Note:
most F38's are asking over $100K up to around $125K.) Nereid's
previous owner purchased a F44 (kind of a stretched 40 with a fin
rather than centerboard and a skeg-hung rudder rather than the
stern-hung of the 40) in New Orleans and is currently working on that
boat in preparation for "heading out." His website is
http://www.brigup.com if you're interested in his experiences.

I took a hard look at both this boat and the F44 in New Orleans before
we made a family decision to RV around the U.S. for a couple of years
now, before going cruising; so it was an interesting karma-type thing
for me that the New Orleans F44 was bought by the Seattle F38 guy. We
have two kids, so the roominess of the 44 is attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

Here's one of those areas where I agree with you, in opposition to
"conventional cruising wisdom." When people like the Pardeys start
with a heavy, slow boat and then recommend that you use a roachless,
battenless main to power it... Ack! I just gotta cringe.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Agreed. Much as I'm anti-crabcrusher, I agree that I'd be willing to
have a F40, although I do prefer the design after Halsey Herreshoff
helped Hoyt clean up that "pirate ship" look of his prototype 40 a
bit. I think we've touched on this a bit before, maybe in
alt.sailing.asa?

The newest Freedom offerings, designed by Pedrick, are, IMO, growing
back toward mediocrity and away from Hoyt's innovation. I mean, you
can now get 'em with running backs in order to fly gennys. That's not
the Freedom concept. And at the prices, I could just as well buy a
nice used Swan, if I want a boat with standing rigging.

And that's my $.02,

Frank

Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36


On 16 Mar 2004 21:15:42 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

DSK wrote:
(some snippage for brevity)
Are you talking about the late 1980s Freedom 38? IIRC that one was a
Gary Mull design. A lot of the same concepts from the original Freedom
40 (one my favorites despite a dislike of 'crab crushers') were carried
forward, and the Freedoms were all quite solidly built.

Here's one with the "cat-sloop" rig, they also came as cat-ketches.
http://www.sanjuansailing.com/charters/sparrow/

...snip...

Yes. The Gary Mull design. It's interesting to me that you included
this particular link. This boat is/was "Nereid" and recently sold here
in Seattle for less than $60K. Broke my heart to pass it up. (Note:
most F38's are asking over $100K up to around $125K.) Nereid's
previous owner purchased a F44 (kind of a stretched 40 with a fin
rather than centerboard and a skeg-hung rudder rather than the
stern-hung of the 40) in New Orleans and is currently working on that
boat in preparation for "heading out." His website is
http://www.brigup.com if you're interested in his experiences.

I took a hard look at both this boat and the F44 in New Orleans before
we made a family decision to RV around the U.S. for a couple of years
now, before going cruising; so it was an interesting karma-type thing
for me that the New Orleans F44 was bought by the Seattle F38 guy. We
have two kids, so the roominess of the 44 is attractive.

The PSC Orion (also called a Crealock 32 IIRC) is pretty nice sailing
boat. Some of the heavyweights can move, but they still suffer in
handling and all-around ability & weatherliness. In general, I keep in
mind John Paul Jones dictum: "Give me a ship that sails *fast*"
especially to windward (but not at the cost of downwind squirelliness,
as many 1970s era racing boats tend to). Getting to windward reliably,
and sharp consistent handling are the two most underrated
characteristics of 'seaworthiness' IMHO... missing stays, getting caught
in irons, being unable to tack without the motor running, etc etc... all
are anti-seaworthiness traits.

Here's one of those areas where I agree with you, in opposition to
"conventional cruising wisdom." When people like the Pardeys start
with a heavy, slow boat and then recommend that you use a roachless,
battenless main to power it... Ack! I just gotta cringe.

I don't know if they are likely to be found in Bob's price range, but
the older Freedom 33 cat-ketch is a nice boat. The centerboard model of
course. It's not as nice as the Freedom 40 cat ketch but it's a good
smaller sister.

Agreed. Much as I'm anti-crabcrusher, I agree that I'd be willing to
have a F40, although I do prefer the design after Halsey Herreshoff
helped Hoyt clean up that "pirate ship" look of his prototype 40 a
bit. I think we've touched on this a bit before, maybe in
alt.sailing.asa?

The newest Freedom offerings, designed by Pedrick, are, IMO, growing
back toward mediocrity and away from Hoyt's innovation. I mean, you
can now get 'em with running backs in order to fly gennys. That's not
the Freedom concept. And at the prices, I could just as well buy a
nice used Swan, if I want a boat with standing rigging.

And that's my $.02,

Frank

Marc wrote:
Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36

Hi, Marc,

I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough
personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My
opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much
faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And,
unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited
market.

Frank

There are ,anecdotally, a large percentage of Freedom owners who's
choice of future boats lies only within the Freedom family. I don't
have any idea how this degree of brand loyalty compares with other
makes and owners, but it is vociferous, myself included, and
noteworthy due to the radically different rig and construction
methods.


On 17 Mar 2004 12:57:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Marc wrote:
Nerieid is a 1986 F36 with the add-on sugar scoop stern. Were there
structural and/or condition questions that determined the low price or
was it market and/or timing?

Marc, F36

Hi, Marc,

I did not see a survey for Nereid; but I did do a pretty thorough
personal walk-through. She seemed to me to be in excellent shape. My
opinion is that the owner was sinking money into his new project much
faster than he had hoped and was simply desperate to sell Nereid. And,
unlike the East Coast, the Northwest is a geographically self-limited
market.

Frank

You may want to check out John Neal's site at
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#anchor30535563 for his comments and list

Marc wrote:
There are ,anecdotally, a large percentage of Freedom owners who's
choice of future boats lies only within the Freedom family. I don't
have any idea how this degree of brand loyalty compares with other
makes and owners, but it is vociferous, myself included, and
noteworthy due to the radically different rig and construction
methods.

I understand this comment and agree that it's likely, if somewhat
unprovable. Unfortunately, as I said in another comment, I find the
newest (Pedrick) designs, the 35 and 40/40, less attractive (less
"Freedomish"?)than the earlier ones. So, I wonder what the future
holds for the Freedom line/concept.

I chartered a F35 for two weeks a coupla years ago just to see how I
liked it compared to previous types, like the Mull 36/38. It was
certainly fun, and still more attractive to me than most "standard"
sloops; but I much prefer the Mull 36/38. And, because the 36/38s are
older, they're cheaper. Cool!

Maybe Freedom just needs a new motto: Once you've sailed a Freedom,
you'll never go back!

I pretty much agree with that.

Frank Maier wrote:

Without doing a Ph.D. dissertation length post


Hello Frank,

Well, your post may not have earned you a Ph.D., but it may qualify
for a Masters! Thanks for the post. You mentioned ease of sailing, and
the fact that you had been on a Freedom 30 and 36 on pretty nasty
weather. That's exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to get
started. One of the items on my seaworthiness list is that the boat
not have a tendency to lay abeam to the wind. Do you know what the
Freedoms do under bare poles? Do they go bow to the wind, stern to the
wind, or lay abeam? I know that this may be hard to answer unless you
have been in that exact situation, so that's OK if you don't know.
That's the beauty of Usenet, that there are thousands of human beings
willing to share their knowledge. Maybe somebody out there knows the
answer.

Some of the other "top" items on my list are being able to beat to
windward under reduced sail (get yourself away from a lee shore),
being able to withstand getting pooped (strong hatches and portholes
with positive locking from the inside, small companionway, sealed
lazarette lockers that don't lead into the main cabin, well-drained
small cockpit, etc.), and good surfing characteristics (positive
steering when going downwind, good reserve buoyancy up front, etc.)

I think I'll reformulate my question one of these days and offer a
punch-style list of desirable characteristics as a starting point for
people to expound on the benefits of different boats. For example,
Matt Pedersen wrote that (of his list) the Ranger 33 was the best boat
of the bunch. He also mentioned the Ericson 35 but he said he didn't
have the high wind mileage on the Ericson to compare with. That's the
beauty of newsgroups! Somebody out in Usenet land has that experience!
Wouldn't it be great if they shared it with us, furthering human
knowledge?

In your subject line you allude to "blue water cruisers."
That's what got you and Doug King at loggerheads. From
reading his posts over the years, I find that I tend to
agree with Doug much of the time.

Well, Frank, since you brought it up, I feel compelled to reply. It
seems, that Doug could be a good contributor if he wanted to. My first
impression of Doug happened actually about a year ago. I was
researching trailers for my Cal-25 and I encountered a thread on
"alt.sailing.asa". I reproduced the quote below for your amusement.
You can search for it on Google:

Ron said about Doug "You are really stupid, a real know-nothing.
NOBODY puts a boat, especially a Cal 25 on a flatbed. Bigger boats
go on low-boys."

What's up with this guy "Ron", I thought to myself? So this other guy
"Doug" said "flatbed" when he really should have said "low-boy".
What's the big deal? Hardly a point worth arguing about. I remember
reading that quote and wondering what kind of person elicits that kind
of response?

Of course, all it took was _ONE_ post on "rec.boats.cruising" for me
to find out! A scant few hours after my first post, Doug King
proclaimed his presence and trumpeted right into my newsreader calling
me "Tidy Bowl" man. Kind of amusing, I must admit, but hardly
appropriate. No wonder this newsgroup gets so cantankerous once in a
while...

As I mentioned to Doug in my last post, it's a case of a few rotten
apples spoiling the whole barrel. He spouts off, complaining about
other members and their beligerent posts, and he seems blind to his
own behavior. He really needs to take a hard look in the mirror and
acknowledge and accept the consequences of his actions. Such a shame.
Such a waste of human knowledge. He seems to be knowledgeable, but
many people probably dismiss his contributions because he tends to
wake up on the wrong side of the bed from time to time. Maybe he was a
pleasant person to have an exchange with 15 years ago, but many years
of Usenet have taken their toll and by now he has probably developed a
Pavlovian response everytime he logs onto a newsgroup. Like I told him
on my last post (that he hasn't responded to), I don't expect him to
drop his weapons when he gets blindsided by one of his many enemies.
On the contrary, I told him to keep fighting the good fight because
most of the time the attacks lashed on him seem to be unfounded. His
many enemies are ready to pounce at the slightest imperfection in
order to get "back" at him. Case in point "flatbed" versus "low-boy".
Doug just needs to take a good look in the mirror and realize he's
become one of them.

Thanks for your posts Frank, I want to reply to Matt now who also has
been a great contributor to this thread.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"



(Frank Maier) wrote in message . com...
(Bob Whitaker) wrote: Frank Maier wrote:

I'm a big fan of the Freedom line; so, my recommendation
would be an early 80s Freedom 32, with a sugarscoop added
to make it a 34.

Hello Frank,

Thanks for the input. What are the features you like most about them?
Is it their sailing characteristics? Is it your familiarity with them
and loyalty to your first love? (a perfectly valid reason ) Is it
their strength? Workmanship? Have you been caught in nasty weather in
one? How did it handle? I know that this is a question without a
single answer. There's probably as many answers to this question as
there are 34 foot models out there. But it would be fun compiling a
list of the top 10, and the reasons why their owners felt that way. I
may try to post another thread one of these days, seeing as the
original post quickly turned to a mud-slinging festival.

Thanks,

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"

Without doing a Ph.D. dissertation length post, I'll state that, as a
class, I don't like heavy displacement cruisers. In your subject line
you allude to "blue water cruisers." That's what got you and Doug King
at loggerheads. From reading his posts over the years, I find that I
tend to agree with Doug much of the time. You also meantioned the
Crealock 34, a boat which, IMHO, falls into this category, a boat
which I would *hate* to sail on. So, those are my prejudices for you
to factor into my comments.

Also like Doug, the idea of a "project boat" is anathema to me; but I
understand that we're all different; and if it's something you enjoy,
then good for you.

The boat which owns my heart, my "Platonic ideal" best boat, is the
Freedom 38. I fell in love with Freedoms after about 20 years of
sailing, both racing and cruising. When Garry Hoyt/Freedom/TPI
produced these boats, it was, for me, an epiphany. Holy ****! Why
hasn't this been done before? Well, it sorta had been. Catboats have
been around for quite a while. Just materials, like carbonfiber masts,
and specifics of design were the innovations which Hoyt gave us with
the Freedom line. To give you a "sales pitch" for the idea of buying a
Freedom 32...

The single "best" feature of Freedoms is their single-handing ability.
Even the 'chute can be flown by one person, launched and doused from
the cockpit. Their construction is second to none (built by TPI). They
have no standing rigging, which means no holes through your deck to
admit water, nothing to break, and nothing to replace every decade or
so. I've never sailed a 32 specifically. I've been in pretty nasty
squally weather on a 30 and a 36 (which is the 38 without the
sugarscoop). Thye use single-line reefing, which again speaks to
convenience for a single-hander and makes it easy to respond swiftly
to deteriorating conditions. (Or easy to catch up if you kinda stay
overcanvassed too long and get behind. Something which I have a
tendency to be guilty of.)

There are a lot of fine boats out there; but Freedom is at/near the
top of my personal list. However, like I said, given my prejudices,
the Crealock, Cape Dory, et al. are boats which are nowhere near my
list, not even at the bottom, although you and many others find them
attractive.

Good luck,

Frank

How about a Sea Sprite 34 (Luders) build by CE Ryder?