I'm a slow learner, I gather. I wish I'd seen something like what follows
before I'd started down the road I've traveled...

Based on my experiences in actually *buying* a boat (versus all the research
any who have bothered to follow it have become very tired of, I'm sure), the
most significant tip I can pass along (based on my/our experience -
different areas, and different boats may be different than our experiences)
is:

Know the boat type you're going to buy inside out, like you made it
yourself. Avail yourself of forms or whatever motivates you and informs you
to do what amounts to a survey. Don't offer on a boat you have not had the
opportunity to inspect out of the water. Then, do as close to a survey as
you have the ability to do. Take a tack hammer or small plastic mallet and
tap every 4th inch or so of the exterior. Plug in your 110v outlet tester
everywhere there is one. Plug in some cigarette-lighter powered item to any
12v outlet. Operate every appliance and through-hull. Turn on and make
work anything that has a switch or a knob. Try to twist every hose clamp.

Ignore that nearly every boat will have expired flares and inadequate fire
suppression, epirbs with out-of-date or melted batteries and inadequate MOB
provisions; these can be bought cheaply - by comparison to other stuff and
labor. Concentrate on the things which matter to safety - like keeping the
water on the outside the boat and the electricity inside the appliances and
wires - and your expectations of what the boat will do for and with you.
Send the broker out to lunch or whatever is needed if they're objecting to
how long it takes you to do that - after all, most surveys take the better
part of, or, in some cases, more than, a day.

When you have done that, sit down with your "survey" and do the best you can
to calculate how much it will cost to remedy the shortcomings you've found.
Then take that off what you would have offered for the boat *before* you
knew those things (based on your impressions of the boat without your
"survey"), and *then* make your offer. Look for a competent surveyor to
watch your back - that you didn't make any dangerous omissions - but use
their report to make a laundry list for you to accomplish on your own
nickel.

Because you won't get any satisfaction after the survey. The boat is the
owner's baby, and can do no wrong. Worse, since you didn't make a
full-price offer in the first place, you've insulted the owner, but they
reluctantly agreed because the broker told them they had to if they wanted
to sell the boat. Whatever you settle on, the owner is now counting the
commission as additional money out of his/her/their hide, because they'd
mentally paid it initially out of whatever reduction you got - but now it's
not there. If you come to the owner with any more than a token survey
adjustment, you'll have the door slammed in your face. Not only has the
owner been raped before this, now the broker wants a piece of flesh, and
here you come with the Visigoths to finish the job of insulting his baby.
The owner's not a happy camper at the thought that the boat's not your pride
and joy in its current condition.

On the other hand, if you've done your survey and have a hard cold look at
what you'll *really* pay for this boat, and can live with it, you'll only
have insulted (vs. raped and pillaged their baby) the owner - and maybe, as
happened in our first and second offers, it will die or you'll kill it
before you spend survey, haul and sea trial money to find out the owner is
now offended at the thought that the boat won't fetch the asking price and
will only sell it as-is/where-is at the price you've agreed before the
survey.

It's only money. I'll get over it. We'll even, most likely, buy this one.
It's a good boat, RTW capable, as it sits. But it's going to cost a lot
more than I like to fix what I think are dangerous items, and when we sell
it, if we don't make a very significant investment in it (beyond what I
think needs doing), it will cost us nearly the same by deduction.

Details later, different post. Reconsidering the name of the boat.. Can't
imagine what, but we have less than 2 weeks to get the answer.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

hang in there, Skip. Boats are not selling well right now, though brokers are
always telling everyone that now is the best time to buy.

The stock market is doing well, housing prices are sky high and rising,
unemployment is about 5.4% and still the boats seem to be standing there.
Whoever is in the White House 10 months from now will have to take some bitter
economics pills for the excesses of the middle 1990's to today. No bitching
one way or the other about the guy in there now, but it looks like he has
delayed the bitter medicine (what political party wouldn't?) until early 2005.
He administers the medicine or the next guy does. People in their mid-30's
have seen just one recession -- and a mild one at that -- in their entire
working careers. boat prices are likely to be much lower spring of 2005.

hang in there, Skip. Boats are not selling well right now, though brokers are
always telling everyone that now is the best time to buy.

The stock market is doing well, housing prices are sky high and rising,
unemployment is about 5.4% and still the boats seem to be standing there.
Whoever is in the White House 10 months from now will have to take some bitter
economics pills for the excesses of the middle 1990's to today. No bitching
one way or the other about the guy in there now, but it looks like he has
delayed the bitter medicine (what political party wouldn't?) until early 2005.
He administers the medicine or the next guy does. People in their mid-30's
have seen just one recession -- and a mild one at that -- in their entire
working careers. boat prices are likely to be much lower spring of 2005.

Because you won't get any satisfaction after the survey. The boat is the
owner's baby, and can do no wrong. Worse, since you didn't make a
full-price offer in the first place, you've insulted the owner, but they
reluctantly agreed because the broker told them they had to if the

........etc.....

Don't forget that the most vulnerable party in any negotiation is the one with
the greatest emotional exposure. The seller is usually going to have a greater
fear of losing the deal than you need to have of losing the boat. Odds are the
boat has been on the market for *months* and you might be the first real buyer
the seller has seen. It would take you 5 minutes to find somebody else willing
to sell a boat, it might take the seller 5 months to find another buyer.

Don't be shy about making a realistic offer based upon what you believe is
probably wrong with the boat, and then going back for another bite after the
surveyor verifies, amplifies, and discovers even more deficiencies. The key is
to go after the big items, and leave the nickel and dime stuff alone. The
seller knows you're not going to
walk because the flares are 90 days expired, but he can be persuaded you might
walk unless the delam in the foredeck is remedied.

90% of the time the deficiencies are resolved with an adjustment to the selling
price. If the seller balks at adjusting the price or doing the repair, it's
perfectly OK to point out that everybody else who eventually decides to make an
offer on his boat will be hiring a surveyor as well- and the same schlockoid
irregularity will continue to be an issue. It's easier to fix it now and have a
sale for sure than to hope the next buyer hires Mr. Magoo to do the survey.

Because you won't get any satisfaction after the survey. The boat is the
owner's baby, and can do no wrong. Worse, since you didn't make a
full-price offer in the first place, you've insulted the owner, but they
reluctantly agreed because the broker told them they had to if the

........etc.....

Don't forget that the most vulnerable party in any negotiation is the one with
the greatest emotional exposure. The seller is usually going to have a greater
fear of losing the deal than you need to have of losing the boat. Odds are the
boat has been on the market for *months* and you might be the first real buyer
the seller has seen. It would take you 5 minutes to find somebody else willing
to sell a boat, it might take the seller 5 months to find another buyer.

Don't be shy about making a realistic offer based upon what you believe is
probably wrong with the boat, and then going back for another bite after the
surveyor verifies, amplifies, and discovers even more deficiencies. The key is
to go after the big items, and leave the nickel and dime stuff alone. The
seller knows you're not going to
walk because the flares are 90 days expired, but he can be persuaded you might
walk unless the delam in the foredeck is remedied.

90% of the time the deficiencies are resolved with an adjustment to the selling
price. If the seller balks at adjusting the price or doing the repair, it's
perfectly OK to point out that everybody else who eventually decides to make an
offer on his boat will be hiring a surveyor as well- and the same schlockoid
irregularity will continue to be an issue. It's easier to fix it now and have a
sale for sure than to hope the next buyer hires Mr. Magoo to do the survey.

Don't worry about this set back.

My wife and I bought a boat 2 years ago. It is a big boat and there was
allot wrong with it. The surveyor called the boat a port risk, I agreed.
We spent 4 days in February looking at everything, and I do mean everything.
On the way home after the 4 days we looked at each other and asked "do we
want this repair project, it's a big one'? That is the question!

We slept on it for a couple days, gathered additional info prior to making a
decision. We liked the boat enough and felt we could buy it at the right
price so we decided to go for it.

Our list included:
New sails
New batteries
New autopilot
New canvas
New engine
New generator
New instruments
New through hulls
New transom core
Rigging upgrade
Strip out all old AC'c, remove all excess wiring ((3) 55 gallon barrels)
remove and replace electric toilets with manual toilets, rewire where
required,...and on and on.

Now understand this is a big boat 61' with a 93' rig. We have worked a
total of 1500 man hours. Installed very good new equipment (Westerbeke
propulsion W108 and generation) WH Autopilots,.... and have kept the project
under $50k. The purchase price which was half the appraised value
but......we did allot of this work ourselves.

Skip, there are good hulls out there. Engines can be swapped out, rigging
can be updated, and it can all be done at a very reasonable cost if you shop
it around and do some of the work yourself. Don't be afraid of a boat that
needs some TLC. You sound like the kind of guy that likes a project and you
are certainly organized enough to get the job done.

We leave the Great Lakes for the East Coast in August, Caribbean in
November, Med in 2005, and then home to finish schooling for the kids.

Good luck with your search and we hope to see you out cruising.

Bryan



"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message link.net...
I'm a slow learner, I gather. I wish I'd seen something like what follows
before I'd started down the road I've traveled...

Based on my experiences in actually *buying* a boat (versus all the
research
any who have bothered to follow it have become very tired of, I'm sure),
the
most significant tip I can pass along (based on my/our experience -
different areas, and different boats may be different than our
experiences)
is:

Know the boat type you're going to buy inside out, like you made it
yourself. Avail yourself of forms or whatever motivates you and informs
you
to do what amounts to a survey. Don't offer on a boat you have not had
the
opportunity to inspect out of the water. Then, do as close to a survey as
you have the ability to do. Take a tack hammer or small plastic mallet
and
tap every 4th inch or so of the exterior. Plug in your 110v outlet tester
everywhere there is one. Plug in some cigarette-lighter powered item to
any
12v outlet. Operate every appliance and through-hull. Turn on and make
work anything that has a switch or a knob. Try to twist every hose clamp.

Ignore that nearly every boat will have expired flares and inadequate fire
suppression, epirbs with out-of-date or melted batteries and inadequate
MOB
provisions; these can be bought cheaply - by comparison to other stuff and
labor. Concentrate on the things which matter to safety - like keeping
the
water on the outside the boat and the electricity inside the appliances
and
wires - and your expectations of what the boat will do for and with you.
Send the broker out to lunch or whatever is needed if they're objecting to
how long it takes you to do that - after all, most surveys take the better
part of, or, in some cases, more than, a day.

When you have done that, sit down with your "survey" and do the best you
can
to calculate how much it will cost to remedy the shortcomings you've
found.
Then take that off what you would have offered for the boat *before* you
knew those things (based on your impressions of the boat without your
"survey"), and *then* make your offer. Look for a competent surveyor to
watch your back - that you didn't make any dangerous omissions - but use
their report to make a laundry list for you to accomplish on your own
nickel.

Because you won't get any satisfaction after the survey. The boat is the
owner's baby, and can do no wrong. Worse, since you didn't make a
full-price offer in the first place, you've insulted the owner, but they
reluctantly agreed because the broker told them they had to if they wanted
to sell the boat. Whatever you settle on, the owner is now counting the
commission as additional money out of his/her/their hide, because they'd
mentally paid it initially out of whatever reduction you got - but now
it's
not there. If you come to the owner with any more than a token survey
adjustment, you'll have the door slammed in your face. Not only has the
owner been raped before this, now the broker wants a piece of flesh, and
here you come with the Visigoths to finish the job of insulting his baby.
The owner's not a happy camper at the thought that the boat's not your
pride
and joy in its current condition.

On the other hand, if you've done your survey and have a hard cold look at
what you'll *really* pay for this boat, and can live with it, you'll only
have insulted (vs. raped and pillaged their baby) the owner - and maybe,
as
happened in our first and second offers, it will die or you'll kill it
before you spend survey, haul and sea trial money to find out the owner is
now offended at the thought that the boat won't fetch the asking price and
will only sell it as-is/where-is at the price you've agreed before the
survey.

It's only money. I'll get over it. We'll even, most likely, buy this
one.
It's a good boat, RTW capable, as it sits. But it's going to cost a lot
more than I like to fix what I think are dangerous items, and when we sell
it, if we don't make a very significant investment in it (beyond what I
think needs doing), it will cost us nearly the same by deduction.

Details later, different post. Reconsidering the name of the boat..
Can't
imagine what, but we have less than 2 weeks to get the answer.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as
self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and
one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Don't worry about this set back.

My wife and I bought a boat 2 years ago. It is a big boat and there was
allot wrong with it. The surveyor called the boat a port risk, I agreed.
We spent 4 days in February looking at everything, and I do mean everything.
On the way home after the 4 days we looked at each other and asked "do we
want this repair project, it's a big one'? That is the question!

We slept on it for a couple days, gathered additional info prior to making a
decision. We liked the boat enough and felt we could buy it at the right
price so we decided to go for it.

Our list included:
New sails
New batteries
New autopilot
New canvas
New engine
New generator
New instruments
New through hulls
New transom core
Rigging upgrade
Strip out all old AC'c, remove all excess wiring ((3) 55 gallon barrels)
remove and replace electric toilets with manual toilets, rewire where
required,...and on and on.

Now understand this is a big boat 61' with a 93' rig. We have worked a
total of 1500 man hours. Installed very good new equipment (Westerbeke
propulsion W108 and generation) WH Autopilots,.... and have kept the project
under $50k. The purchase price which was half the appraised value
but......we did allot of this work ourselves.

Skip, there are good hulls out there. Engines can be swapped out, rigging
can be updated, and it can all be done at a very reasonable cost if you shop
it around and do some of the work yourself. Don't be afraid of a boat that
needs some TLC. You sound like the kind of guy that likes a project and you
are certainly organized enough to get the job done.

We leave the Great Lakes for the East Coast in August, Caribbean in
November, Med in 2005, and then home to finish schooling for the kids.

Good luck with your search and we hope to see you out cruising.

Bryan



"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message link.net...
I'm a slow learner, I gather. I wish I'd seen something like what follows
before I'd started down the road I've traveled...

Based on my experiences in actually *buying* a boat (versus all the
research
any who have bothered to follow it have become very tired of, I'm sure),
the
most significant tip I can pass along (based on my/our experience -
different areas, and different boats may be different than our
experiences)
is:

Know the boat type you're going to buy inside out, like you made it
yourself. Avail yourself of forms or whatever motivates you and informs
you
to do what amounts to a survey. Don't offer on a boat you have not had
the
opportunity to inspect out of the water. Then, do as close to a survey as
you have the ability to do. Take a tack hammer or small plastic mallet
and
tap every 4th inch or so of the exterior. Plug in your 110v outlet tester
everywhere there is one. Plug in some cigarette-lighter powered item to
any
12v outlet. Operate every appliance and through-hull. Turn on and make
work anything that has a switch or a knob. Try to twist every hose clamp.

Ignore that nearly every boat will have expired flares and inadequate fire
suppression, epirbs with out-of-date or melted batteries and inadequate
MOB
provisions; these can be bought cheaply - by comparison to other stuff and
labor. Concentrate on the things which matter to safety - like keeping
the
water on the outside the boat and the electricity inside the appliances
and
wires - and your expectations of what the boat will do for and with you.
Send the broker out to lunch or whatever is needed if they're objecting to
how long it takes you to do that - after all, most surveys take the better
part of, or, in some cases, more than, a day.

When you have done that, sit down with your "survey" and do the best you
can
to calculate how much it will cost to remedy the shortcomings you've
found.
Then take that off what you would have offered for the boat *before* you
knew those things (based on your impressions of the boat without your
"survey"), and *then* make your offer. Look for a competent surveyor to
watch your back - that you didn't make any dangerous omissions - but use
their report to make a laundry list for you to accomplish on your own
nickel.

Because you won't get any satisfaction after the survey. The boat is the
owner's baby, and can do no wrong. Worse, since you didn't make a
full-price offer in the first place, you've insulted the owner, but they
reluctantly agreed because the broker told them they had to if they wanted
to sell the boat. Whatever you settle on, the owner is now counting the
commission as additional money out of his/her/their hide, because they'd
mentally paid it initially out of whatever reduction you got - but now
it's
not there. If you come to the owner with any more than a token survey
adjustment, you'll have the door slammed in your face. Not only has the
owner been raped before this, now the broker wants a piece of flesh, and
here you come with the Visigoths to finish the job of insulting his baby.
The owner's not a happy camper at the thought that the boat's not your
pride
and joy in its current condition.

On the other hand, if you've done your survey and have a hard cold look at
what you'll *really* pay for this boat, and can live with it, you'll only
have insulted (vs. raped and pillaged their baby) the owner - and maybe,
as
happened in our first and second offers, it will die or you'll kill it
before you spend survey, haul and sea trial money to find out the owner is
now offended at the thought that the boat won't fetch the asking price and
will only sell it as-is/where-is at the price you've agreed before the
survey.

It's only money. I'll get over it. We'll even, most likely, buy this
one.
It's a good boat, RTW capable, as it sits. But it's going to cost a lot
more than I like to fix what I think are dangerous items, and when we sell
it, if we don't make a very significant investment in it (beyond what I
think needs doing), it will cost us nearly the same by deduction.

Details later, different post. Reconsidering the name of the boat..
Can't
imagine what, but we have less than 2 weeks to get the answer.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as
self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and
one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Reconsidering the name of the boat.. Can't
imagine what, but we have less than 2 weeks to get the answer.

L8R

Skip and Lydia


It's obvious: "Lydia's Kip"

Terry K

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Reconsidering the name of the boat.. Can't
imagine what, but we have less than 2 weeks to get the answer.

L8R

Skip and Lydia


It's obvious: "Lydia's Kip"

Terry K

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:53:49 GMT, in message
.net
"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

When you have done that, sit down with your "survey" and do the best you can
to calculate how much it will cost to remedy the shortcomings you've found.
Then take that off what you would have offered for the boat *before* you
knew those things (based on your impressions of the boat without your
"survey"), and *then* make your offer. Look for a competent surveyor to
watch your back - that you didn't make any dangerous omissions - but use
their report to make a laundry list for you to accomplish on your own
nickel.

I second this advice -- take a good close look at everything that is
available to be examined and base your offer on that full examination.

Because you won't get any satisfaction after the survey. The boat is the
owner's baby, and can do no wrong.

I'm a little more sympathetic to the current owner. If I put my boat
on the market I would expect any offers to be based on the current
apparent condition of the boat, including all of her visible or
expected faults. When buying a 20 year old boat I expected some faults
that would take money and effort to fix, and sure enough there were
some there, including some that the surveyor caught and I didn't. I
didn't expect the selling price to change unless there were some *big*
*hidden* problems, in which case I was much more likely to call off
the deal and keep looking.

Ryk