I decided
 

JimC wrote:
....
Hi Marty. Before I respond to your note, would you please show me any
note I posted stating that the Mac is suitable for use on an open ocean
passage of any kind? Seems to me that what I stated was that I wouldn't
want to take mine 200 miles offshore. Nevertheless, the Mac's do have
positive floatation, and they don't have a heavy keel that would drag
the boat quickly to the bottom if the hull were compromised. Marty, so
far, no one has provided ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL of one breaking apart and
sinking under ANY conditions, offshore, inshore, heavy weather, squalls,
drunk skipper, collisions. No one. Nada. Despite the thousands of Macs
out there.
...

Perhaps true, but we do have evidence of drowning on a Mac that rolled
over. Does the fact the the boat didn't sink make you feel better?

I decided
 

JimC wrote:
Obviously, you have no knowledge of the design and construction of the
Mac 26M.

Obviously, you have no knowledge of what I know. Is the vigorous
assertion of other's ignorance your only evidence that you know
anything at all, much less about sailing?


.... In contrast to your assertion, it is made with multiple
fiberglas-resin layups, NOT CHOPPER GUNS.

WOW! "Multiple fiberglas-resin layups" ?!? Does that mean it has,
like, more than one layer of fiberglass? Amazing technological
breakthrough!

BTW if you look at the video of the Mac 26M being built, you will see
a guy with a bunny suit & a respirator with no cartridges using a
chopper gun. IIRC the announcer is talking about fiberglass lay-ups
while showing this, maybe that's where you get the idea.

Actually, using a chopper gun is not a bad way to add stiffness to a
fiberglass structure. Used *between* layers of cloth/roving, it
functions in much the same manner as a core material, but with better
cross-linking. And it adds a lot of weight.

The reason why chopper gun laminations have such a bad rap is mainly
years of boat advertisement saying how bad it is, of course we don't
use it.


... And many Mac 26 owners (in
the US and in foreign waters) have taken their boats offshore.

Do tell.
How many have sailed their boats through 40+ knot winds and 10'+
breaking seas?
I bet.... none!


... Yet so far, no one (on this ng or on the
Mac owners ng) has even heard of ANY Mac26 breaking up and sinking, in
heavy weather conditions, collisions, or other forms of stress.


Well, you of course will insist this can't possibly be true, but I
know of two Mac 26X/Ms having structural failure due to fairly normal
stress. No wait, three.
1- rested on an anchor at low tide, ripping a large hole in the hull.
This was only into the ballast tank, so the boat refloated just fine
when the tide came back in. However, the boat sailed even worse than
before.
2- hit an unknown floating object, tearing rudder off the transom. Due
to lack of backing plates, the holes where the bolts pulled thru were
small. Darn clever, those Mac engineers!
3- bumped repeatedly against dock in brief squall, cracking topsides
and opening seam along hull/deck joint.

None of these boats sank, it's true. But they all needed major repair
before "sailing" again. Two were sold immediately afterwards by the
owenrs... hey, maybe this explains why you don't hear about it on the
Mac-Crack-Cult-Gathering discussion forums.

DSK

I decided
 

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:06:33 -0400, jeff wrote:

Perhaps true, but we do have evidence of drowning on a Mac that rolled
over. Does the fact the the boat didn't sink make you feel better?

Was it dismasted in the rollover? Why did the rollover occur ?

I decided
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:06:33 -0400, jeff wrote:

Perhaps true, but we do have evidence of drowning on a Mac that rolled
over. Does the fact the the boat didn't sink make you feel better?

Was it dismasted in the rollover? Why did the rollover occur ?

It was on July 4th, about 6 years ago. Calm night, a large crowd
watching fireworks. The Mac had been borrowed by a brother-in-law, who
had only used it a few times. There were 8 adults on deck, some
standing forward, and three small kids below. The cause of the rollover
is unclear, but I assume after weighing anchor the skipper goosed the
throttle with the helm over, and the boat lurched. It was probably
pulled over by someone hanging onto the shrouds. Two of the kids below
drowned.

There was a big trial, experts for both sides. I think USSailing
actually sent witnesses against Mac. In the end Mac avoided paying
damages because the skipper was drunk. Of course, everyone else out
there (and half the boaters across the country) was drunk that night,
but only these two kids died. I always thought that incident was the
reason why Mac added some ballast in the new design.

JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

I decided
 

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:09:26 -0400, jeff wrote:

JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

=========================================

Tragic, too many people plus a design weakness. Bayliner had a
similar issue back in the 80s with some of their small flybridge
cruisers. With too much weight on the flybridge they would flop over
and capsize in a hard turn. Problem was solved with a warning
sticker.

I decided
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:09:26 -0400, jeff wrote:

JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

=========================================

Tragic, too many people plus a design weakness. Bayliner had a
similar issue back in the 80s with some of their small flybridge
cruisers. With too much weight on the flybridge they would flop over
and capsize in a hard turn. Problem was solved with a warning
sticker.

Problem solved with a warning sticker!!! That is just the builder covering
his backside as best he can.
The builders of the capsized Mac said they put a sticker on when it was
built but the evidence indicated that it was not there at the time of the
accident.
Eight adults on the deck of what was in effect a large unballasted dinghy is
a recipe for disaster because it constitutes overloading anyway and the
weight of all on deck was so high up that if the boat heels even in a gentle
turn it is going right over if there is no ballast in the keel to restrain
it..
There is no mystery at all about the cause of the tragedy but it does
indicate that this is not a boat that anyone without training about the
water ballast and the max no of passengers can just drive away safely

I decided
 

Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
snipping

Zzzzzz... this thread is dead Jim... LOL


The string is dead? Well, some of us have interests and
responsibilities beyond participating in such a discussion. Also, I
spent the afternoon this Saturday sailing my boat, something I don't
seem often to see with respect to you and your buddies posting in this
string. - It's strange, but you and most of your anti-Mac buddies seem
to get their jollies from bashing us Mac sailors, whereas we Mac sailors
get pleasure from sailing our Macs.

But I'll get back to you, and also to your Mac-bashing buddies. That's a
promise.

Jim

I decided
 

JimC wrote:


Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
snipping

Zzzzzz... this thread is dead Jim... LOL


The string is dead? Well, some of us have interests and
responsibilities beyond participating in such a discussion. Also, I
spent the afternoon this Saturday sailing my boat, something I don't
seem often to see with respect to you and your buddies posting in this
string. - It's strange, but you and most of your anti-Mac buddies seem
to get their jollies from bashing us Mac sailors, whereas we Mac sailors
get pleasure from sailing our Macs.

But I'll get back to you, and also to your Mac-bashing buddies. That's a
promise.

Getting a bit paranoid there Jim. Nobody was bashing Macs, just bashing
the idea that they were sufficiently seaworthy as to be taken off shore
and brave open ocean storms. Now go take a pill and relax, Macs have
their place, as do canoes and paddle boats.

Cheers
Marty

Jim

I decided
 

"JimC" wrote in message
...


Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
snipping

Zzzzzz... this thread is dead Jim... LOL


The string is dead? Well, some of us have interests and responsibilities
beyond participating in such a discussion. Also, I spent the afternoon
this Saturday sailing my boat, something I don't seem often to see with
respect to you and your buddies posting in this string. - It's strange,
but you and most of your anti-Mac buddies seem to get their jollies from
bashing us Mac sailors, whereas we Mac sailors get pleasure from sailing
our Macs.

But I'll get back to you, and also to your Mac-bashing buddies. That's a
promise.

Jim


Really? Gee, I was sailing before the Strictly Sail show today... on an
actual sailboat that doesn't capsize when you make a hard turn. No pleasure
there... nope, none at all!


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I decided
 

"Marty" wrote in message
...
JimC wrote:


Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
snipping

Zzzzzz... this thread is dead Jim... LOL


The string is dead? Well, some of us have interests and responsibilities
beyond participating in such a discussion. Also, I spent the afternoon
this Saturday sailing my boat, something I don't seem often to see with
respect to you and your buddies posting in this string. - It's strange,
but you and most of your anti-Mac buddies seem to get their jollies from
bashing us Mac sailors, whereas we Mac sailors get pleasure from sailing
our Macs.

But I'll get back to you, and also to your Mac-bashing buddies. That's a
promise.

Getting a bit paranoid there Jim. Nobody was bashing Macs, just bashing
the idea that they were sufficiently seaworthy as to be taken off shore
and brave open ocean storms. Now go take a pill and relax, Macs have their
place, as do canoes and paddle boats.

Cheers
Marty

Jim


That's right Marty... in fact, as the chief Mac-basher (apparently) I said
near those exact words, but Jim doesn't want to hear...


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com