duplicate nav lights panel
 

I've been thinking about adding duplicate switches for my nav lights to the
cockpit near the engine start. I guess they would be three-position
switches, since I'd like to be able to control them from their current
place, as well as closer to the helm. Has someone done this or has
suggestions about what to look or watchout for with respect to the type of
switch? My engine controls are in the aft laz under the seat, and it should
be pretty straightforward to run wires, etc.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

On 2008-03-25 20:17:28 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I've been thinking about adding duplicate switches for my nav lights to the
cockpit near the engine start. I guess they would be three-position
switches, since I'd like to be able to control them from their current
place, as well as closer to the helm.

The correct ones would both would be double-pole, double-throw (DPDT)

But WHY? It takes only a few seconds to go to the panel, throw the
switches, then return to your helm. You're adding at least 3 extra
connections and an exposed switch, some more things to go wrong....

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008032521223516807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-03-25 20:17:28 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I've been thinking about adding duplicate switches for my nav lights to
the
cockpit near the engine start. I guess they would be three-position
switches, since I'd like to be able to control them from their current
place, as well as closer to the helm.

The correct ones would both would be double-pole, double-throw (DPDT)

But WHY? It takes only a few seconds to go to the panel, throw the
switches, then return to your helm. You're adding at least 3 extra
connections and an exposed switch, some more things to go wrong....

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Perhaps I don't want to have to rely on those "few seconds," especially if I
need to start the engine and switch on the steaming light. Which one do I do
first? It's not a huge deal to use the current switch, but I'm thinking
about the convenience. The switch/panel wouldn't be exposed any more than my
key and blower control... as I said, in a stern lazzarette.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote
I've never seen three way switches for 12 V systems and you shouldn't use
110 volt non-marine stuff.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't take a couple of SPDT switches like
this and create JG's two station arrangement. Wire it like a typical 3-way
household light, substituting +/- DC for hot/neutral.
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|49758|303333|1017101&id=812735

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote
The problem with 3-way switch set ups though is that you never know which
position at either switch is off or on.

Good point. How about two SPSTs in parallel? Either switch could turn the
light on, but both would have to be off to turn it off.

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote
The problem with 3-way switch set ups though is that you never know which
position at either switch is off or on.

Not a big problem, I could live with that.


"Ernest Scribbler" wrote:
Good point. How about two SPSTs in parallel? Either switch could turn the
light on, but both would have to be off to turn it off.

That would be a good way to do it, esp if they both had indicator
lights. I hate to leave lights on when they're not needed and tend to
be forgetful sometimes.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

duplicate nav lights panel
 

Roger Long wrote:
Clever. The problem with 3-way switch set ups though is that you never know
which position at either switch is off or on.


Easy enough to wire a small indicator lamp in parallel with the nav
light/steaming light....whatever light. Might be a good idea anyway,
then you'll at least know that your switch made contact.

Cheers
Marty

duplicate nav lights panel
 

wrote
esp if they both had indicator lights.

A simple visual cue might be to install the switches in a three way
arrangement such that the lights are off when the switches are pointed in
the same direction at both stations. Or vice versa if you prefer, but you'd
have to remember which it is and remember to look.

Any way you do it has advantages and drawbacks, IE with series switches
you're less likely to accidentally leave a light on, while with parallel
switches you're less likely to think you've turned a light on when you
haven't. Indicator lamps would mitigate most of that, but they'd add a
little current draw and some complication.

duplicate nav lights panel
 

How about a DPDT double coil latching relay and a couple of push buttons
wired in parallel. Wire one side of the relay to the coils so that each
pulse would reverse the status of the relay. That way you could eliminate
any current loss in the long run to the cockpit and back, the wire to the
switches could be very small gauge and one push of either switch turns the
lights on or off.

For the belt and suspenders types you could add a separate switch to bypass
the relay for redundancy.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I've been thinking about adding duplicate switches for my nav lights to
the cockpit near the engine start. I guess they would be three-position
switches, since I'd like to be able to control them from their current
place, as well as closer to the helm. Has someone done this or has
suggestions about what to look or watchout for with respect to the type of
switch? My engine controls are in the aft laz under the seat, and it
should be pretty straightforward to run wires, etc.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:26:12 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Any way you do it has advantages and drawbacks, IE with series switches
you're less likely to accidentally leave a light on, while with parallel
switches you're less likely to think you've turned a light on when you
haven't. Indicator lamps would mitigate most of that, but they'd add a
little current draw and some complication.




Sounds like a job for - Relays!

Good grief. There's nothing like complexity and additional points of
failure to muck up a boats reliability.

duplicate nav lights panel
 

Ernest Scribbler wrote:

wrote

esp if they both had indicator lights.


A simple visual cue might be to install the switches in a three way
arrangement such that the lights are off when the switches are pointed in
the same direction at both stations. Or vice versa if you prefer, but you'd
have to remember which it is and remember to look.

Any way you do it has advantages and drawbacks, IE with series switches
you're less likely to accidentally leave a light on, while with parallel
switches you're less likely to think you've turned a light on when you
haven't. Indicator lamps would mitigate most of that, but they'd add a
little current draw and some complication.




Sounds like a job for - Relays!


--
(remove the X to email)

It's never too late to be the person you might have been.
George Elliot

duplicate nav lights panel
 

Actually it would be a lot simpler than trying to rig up a 3 way circuit
between the nav station and the helm. A $12 hermetically sealed latching
relay and four 18 gauge wires. Probably more reliable too. Latching
relays have been around for a long time making millions of cycles in some
very nasty environments. Besides having one less connection, with a relay
the switches are redundant and the switch leads are not in the lighting
circuit and are energized for only a fraction of a second. . If either of
the switch circuits die the other will still work. In a 3-way the switches
are in series and the wires are carrying the lighting current any time the
lights are on increasing the chances for corrosion. If either switch dies
or any connector corrodes you are SOL..

Also with a 3-way arrangement all the current will have to travel all the
way to the cockpit and back regardless of which switch was thrown. Unless
you are 100% LED that is 30 or 40 feet of extra wire carrying enough amps to
handle four 20 watt bulbs or about a 2.5% voltage drop on #12 wire not
counting the wires going to the lights.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Cool. Someone who likes things more complicated than I do (or people here
think I do, anyway).

I've gone to LED nav lights so the voltage drop and consumption are not
such a big issue.

--
Roger Long

duplicate nav lights panel
 

Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:26:12 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:


Any way you do it has advantages and drawbacks, IE with series switches
you're less likely to accidentally leave a light on, while with parallel
switches you're less likely to think you've turned a light on when you
haven't. Indicator lamps would mitigate most of that, but they'd add a
little current draw and some complication.




Sounds like a job for - Relays!


Good grief. There's nothing like complexity and additional points of
failure to muck up a boats reliability.



A second set of switches - wasn't my idea!

--
(remove the X to email)

It's never too late to be the person you might have been.
George Elliot

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote
I've gone to LED nav lights

Sweet. What kind?

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/08BowWork.htm

Ah. I'd seen that before, but I guess I missed that the lights are LEDs.

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Cool. Someone who likes things more complicated than I do (or people here
think I do, anyway).

I've gone to LED nav lights so the voltage drop and consumption are not
such a big issue.

--
Roger Long




There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't be
the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than what
I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do that
confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something that can
be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone else to go
below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all the
way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I've been thinking about adding duplicate switches for my nav lights to
the cockpit near the engine start. I guess they would be three-position
switches, since I'd like to be able to control them from their current
place, as well as closer to the helm. Has someone done this or has
suggestions about what to look or watchout for with respect to the type of
switch? My engine controls are in the aft laz under the seat, and it
should be pretty straightforward to run wires, etc.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

You could always replace the in cabin switches with manual/remote circuit
breakers (RCCBs) and place the circuit breaker control switches out in the
cockpit. That would keep the power circuit the same as you have it now and
the controls in both places would be exact duplicates, no need for three way
switches, etc. You would know if they were on or off too.

Amen!

Bob Crantz

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow
lights work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no
safe way to confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the
helm to go all the way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a
less experienced person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on.

If I look just at the right place, I can see the reflection of my running
lights on the pulpit from the helm. It just occured to me that I may not
on the new LED lights. Of course, I won't worry as much about whether LED
lights are burned out, one of the reasons I converted to them. A trick
used on some airplanes is to glue or attach a small tab of plastic to the
light. It will pick up the light and make a little spark of light that can
be seen from the cockpit. It should work on a boat.

--
Roger Long

I wouldn't be as concerned about a bulb going as I would about the rest of
the connection. I had a situation where my steaming light was out, so I
thought bulb. Replaced the bulb, and it worked fine. Then, a week later, was
out again. Hmmm.... had a local guy climb the mast (not my thing unless it's
an emergency) and clean the connection. The light lit. Then, two weeks
later, it was out *again*! Finally, I pulled off the access plate near the
maststep and found a very flakey looking connection. Fixed that, and it's
been working ever since.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:58:39 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
.. .
Cool. Someone who likes things more complicated than I do (or people
here
think I do, anyway).

I've gone to LED nav lights so the voltage drop and consumption are not
such a big issue.

--
Roger Long




There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't
be
the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than
what
I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do
that
confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something that
can
be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone else to
go
below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all
the
way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

If you are teaching, your boat probably should be set up as close to
"typical"
as possible. Your students need to learn what to expect when they get on a
boat
without you there to double check them. Setting up what you propose, to me
at
least, seems like it would be a disadvantage for the students. They need
to know
that just flicking the switch is not really enough. You need to flick the
switch
and then try to confirm that the lights came on.

It depends on if they're students or if it's a charter. Also, there's no
reason why they can't or shouldn't toggle the switch below in most cases.
This is not intended as a substitute for teaching, but I have to say that I
believe it's a minor issue even for that. My main area of interest is when I
need to get it done now in a variety of situations, including urgently with
students, urgently on a charter, or when I'm single-handing and don't want
to leave the helm. Even messing with the autohelm and remote control takes a
lot more time than this kind of setup would.

That said, If you do a little digging, there are "current sensor" devices
that
can be wired to your panel that sense if the lights out at the end of the
wires
are drawing current when the power is turned on. If the sensor doesn't
detect
current draw, it flashes a warning LED on the panel telling you which lamp
is
not lit. You can have individual sensors with indicators for each lamp
without
running extra wires all over creation. Of course if you can't go forward
to
check if the lights are lit, how are you going to get out there to fix one
that
the remote indicator says is not working? :')

I'm sure there are those available, but I think it's a bit overkill for my
intended purpose. I think there is a difference, however, between fixing (or
not as the case may be) and not being aware of it being down. I would much
rather know that something isn't working and not be able to do something
about it than not know.

I think it's more a redundancy issue that an absolute certainty issue.
Another part of the puzzle is whether or not I would even see the warning
LED, given where the switch would be placed. It's under the seat, so either
I'm toggling it or not. If it craps out after I use it, I wouldn't know.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't
be the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than
what I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do
that confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something
that can be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone
else to go below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all
the way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

My instrument panel has an ammeter which tells me the total current being
drawn from the house battery by all the auxiliaries on the panel.
When you switch anything on, even a single mast light, you can see the
needle give a little kick which confirms that it is indeed working.
And yes, I know that a short circuit on the wiring would also give a kick,
probably much greater, but IMO you can ignore this possibility if you
manually check the operation of the lights occasionally.

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote

You could always replace the in cabin switches with manual/remote circuit
breakers (RCCBs) and place the circuit breaker control switches out in the
cockpit. That would keep the power circuit the same as you have it now and
the controls in both places would be exact duplicates, no need for three
way switches, etc. You would know if they were on or off too.

Amen!

Bob Crantz


Well, they already rejected a latching relay as "to complex" even though
they are readily available, cheaper, easier to install and more reliable
than a 3-way circuit. An RCCB costs 20 times as much and impossible to
find except from specialized aviation or industrial control sources.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't
be the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than
what I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do
that confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something
that can be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone
else to go below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow
lights work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no
safe way to confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the
helm to go all the way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a
less experienced person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The
masthead is easy to confirm of course, as is the stern light.

My instrument panel has an ammeter which tells me the total current being
drawn from the house battery by all the auxiliaries on the panel.
When you switch anything on, even a single mast light, you can see the
needle give a little kick which confirms that it is indeed working.
And yes, I know that a short circuit on the wiring would also give a kick,
probably much greater, but IMO you can ignore this possibility if you
manually check the operation of the lights occasionally.



Neither of my panels have an amp meter unfortunately. Even if they did, I
wouldn't be able to see them from the cockpit. I've been thinking about
upgrading the panel, but haven't done so.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 05:59:59 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

"Bob Crantz" wrote

You could always replace the in cabin switches with manual/remote
circuit
breakers (RCCBs) and place the circuit breaker control switches out in
the
cockpit. That would keep the power circuit the same as you have it now
and
the controls in both places would be exact duplicates, no need for three
way switches, etc. You would know if they were on or off too.

Amen!

Bob Crantz


Well, they already rejected a latching relay as "to complex" even though
they are readily available, cheaper, easier to install and more reliable
than a 3-way circuit. An RCCB costs 20 times as much and impossible to
find except from specialized aviation or industrial control sources.

Or, if remembering to turn them on or off is a problem, you could simply
get in
the habit of turning on the NAV lights when you get underway as part of
the same
ritual when you get other things ready, and turn them off when you return
and
put things away. That means you can verify they are on by a physical
check, too,
when you go forward to untie the safety tie around your furled headsail.
No
modifications needed. It's perfectly acceptable to run the NAV lights
whenever
underway, even at high noon on a sunny day. These days, with LED NAV
lights, it
doesn't present much of a problem of running down the batteries.

Steaming light can be rigged to go on and off with the engine.




This is an interesting idea... I don't have LEDs, but still... I could
always switch over to LEDs, which I've been thinking about doing also. Given
the conditions, it wouldn't be totally bizarre to have them on in
preparation for the summer fog we know we'll get at some point.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
My instrument panel has an ammeter which tells me the total current
being
drawn from the house battery by all the auxiliaries on the panel.
When you switch anything on, even a single mast light, you can see the
needle give a little kick which confirms that it is indeed working.
And yes, I know that a short circuit on the wiring would also give a
kick, probably much greater, but IMO you can ignore this possibility if
you manually check the operation of the lights occasionally.



Neither of my panels have an amp meter unfortunately. Even if they did, I
wouldn't be able to see them from the cockpit. I've been thinking about
upgrading the panel, but haven't done so.

Go on, have a go its fun :-)
I am in the middle of doing it.
It is easy enough to add an amp meter. A suitable meter has the current to
the board all passing through an external shunt and the meter itself is a
milliampmeter connected across the shunt and calibrated in amps.
Apart from the indications I mentioned it helps you calculate if your house
battery is going to last through the trip

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
My instrument panel has an ammeter which tells me the total current
being
drawn from the house battery by all the auxiliaries on the panel.
When you switch anything on, even a single mast light, you can see the
needle give a little kick which confirms that it is indeed working.
And yes, I know that a short circuit on the wiring would also give a
kick, probably much greater, but IMO you can ignore this possibility if
you manually check the operation of the lights occasionally.



Neither of my panels have an amp meter unfortunately. Even if they did, I
wouldn't be able to see them from the cockpit. I've been thinking about
upgrading the panel, but haven't done so.

Go on, have a go its fun :-)
I am in the middle of doing it.
It is easy enough to add an amp meter. A suitable meter has the current to
the board all passing through an external shunt and the meter itself is a
milliampmeter connected across the shunt and calibrated in amps.
Apart from the indications I mentioned it helps you calculate if your
house battery is going to last through the trip



I've been putting it off mostly because of where to put it is an issue. I'd
likely have to increase the size of the cutout for the new panel, which I
hate doing.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:03:36 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 05:59:59 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

"Bob Crantz" wrote

You could always replace the in cabin switches with manual/remote
circuit
breakers (RCCBs) and place the circuit breaker control switches out in
the
cockpit. That would keep the power circuit the same as you have it now
and
the controls in both places would be exact duplicates, no need for
three
way switches, etc. You would know if they were on or off too.

Amen!

Bob Crantz


Well, they already rejected a latching relay as "to complex" even though
they are readily available, cheaper, easier to install and more reliable
than a 3-way circuit. An RCCB costs 20 times as much and impossible to
find except from specialized aviation or industrial control sources.

Or, if remembering to turn them on or off is a problem, you could simply
get in
the habit of turning on the NAV lights when you get underway as part of
the same
ritual when you get other things ready, and turn them off when you
return
and
put things away. That means you can verify they are on by a physical
check, too,
when you go forward to untie the safety tie around your furled headsail.
No
modifications needed. It's perfectly acceptable to run the NAV lights
whenever
underway, even at high noon on a sunny day. These days, with LED NAV
lights, it
doesn't present much of a problem of running down the batteries.

Steaming light can be rigged to go on and off with the engine.




This is an interesting idea... I don't have LEDs, but still... I could
always switch over to LEDs, which I've been thinking about doing also.
Given
the conditions, it wouldn't be totally bizarre to have them on in
preparation for the summer fog we know we'll get at some point.

I figure that all the other plans I've heard involved spending money
and doing a fair amount of work. Seems like this plan would be less
money and work, and ultimately simpler and just as effective. You even
get the bonus of increased reliability, and much lower power
consumption. My running lights, which used to draw over 3 amps, now
draw .3 amps TOTAL for the three combined. Especially on a sailboat
with minimal ability to charge batteries, that's a big plus.




I'm going to check it out... the LEDs shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not
particularly gifted when it comes to electical stuff (like getting the stern
light to work with engine on... just as likely to get it right or fry
something and have to call the fire dept.) LOL


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

On Mar 27, 12:48 am, wrote:
... Or, if remembering to turn them on or off is a problem, you could simply get in
the habit of turning on the NAV lights when you get underway as part of the same
ritual when you get other things ready, and turn them off when you return and
put things away. ...

Many commercial operators do this. On a sailboat going between power
and sail might be an issue. If using conventional lights then the
steaming light (masthead) could be turned on by the ignition. If
using a tri-color then you'd need some way of switching between it and
the under-power lights.

-- Tom.

duplicate nav lights panel
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:33:41 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:03:36 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 05:59:59 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

"Bob Crantz" wrote

You could always replace the in cabin switches with manual/remote
circuit
breakers (RCCBs) and place the circuit breaker control switches out
in
the
cockpit. That would keep the power circuit the same as you have it
now
and
the controls in both places would be exact duplicates, no need for
three
way switches, etc. You would know if they were on or off too.

Amen!

Bob Crantz


Well, they already rejected a latching relay as "to complex" even
though
they are readily available, cheaper, easier to install and more
reliable
than a 3-way circuit. An RCCB costs 20 times as much and impossible
to
find except from specialized aviation or industrial control sources.

Or, if remembering to turn them on or off is a problem, you could
simply
get in
the habit of turning on the NAV lights when you get underway as part
of
the same
ritual when you get other things ready, and turn them off when you
return
and
put things away. That means you can verify they are on by a physical
check, too,
when you go forward to untie the safety tie around your furled
headsail.
No
modifications needed. It's perfectly acceptable to run the NAV lights
whenever
underway, even at high noon on a sunny day. These days, with LED NAV
lights, it
doesn't present much of a problem of running down the batteries.

Steaming light can be rigged to go on and off with the engine.




This is an interesting idea... I don't have LEDs, but still... I could
always switch over to LEDs, which I've been thinking about doing also.
Given
the conditions, it wouldn't be totally bizarre to have them on in
preparation for the summer fog we know we'll get at some point.

I figure that all the other plans I've heard involved spending money
and doing a fair amount of work. Seems like this plan would be less
money and work, and ultimately simpler and just as effective. You even
get the bonus of increased reliability, and much lower power
consumption. My running lights, which used to draw over 3 amps, now
draw .3 amps TOTAL for the three combined. Especially on a sailboat
with minimal ability to charge batteries, that's a big plus.




I'm going to check it out... the LEDs shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not
particularly gifted when it comes to electical stuff (like getting the
stern
light to work with engine on... just as likely to get it right or fry
something and have to call the fire dept.) LOL

If you have a key switch that must be turned to operate the engine, it
may also have a switched 12 volts terminal for accessories and gauges
that get power when you turn it on. If not, you could change out the
keyswitch to one that does have that.




Yes. It should have a switched 12vdc terminal. Next time I'm at the boat,
I'm going to check.

The two lights that would need to come on when the engine is running would
be the stern and steaming lights. I'm trying to think of another situation
when I'd want either of those two on. I can't think of a situation, but if
there is one, it would be nice to have a bypass to force them on.

Golf was brutal... I think I'll stick to sailing. LOL


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

On 2008-03-27 21:40:09 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

The two lights that would need to come on when the engine is running
would be the stern and steaming lights.

The stern light should be on the nav switch, as it should be on with
the red and green ones, under sail or power.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008032721510550073-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-03-27 21:40:09 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

The two lights that would need to come on when the engine is running
would be the stern and steaming lights.

The stern light should be on the nav switch, as it should be on with the
red and green ones, under sail or power.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Yeah, duh... just realized that after I typed it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Jere Lull" wrote
The stern light should be on the nav switch, as it should be on with the
red and green ones, under sail or power.

That's how it was on my power boat, but my sail boat has separate switches
for bow and stern lights. I wonder why? Is there ever a time when you don't
want the front and back lit up simultaneously?

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:11:37 -0700, "Capt. JG"
said:

The stern light should be on the nav switch, as it should be on with the
red and green ones, under sail or power.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Yeah, duh... just realized that after I typed it.

I'm not so sure you're wrong, Jon. Is there any reason why the system
couldn't be set up so that either turning on the nav lights switch or
turning on the engine switch would activate the stern light? Seems it
would
just require an additional wire from the engine switch to the stern light
hot wire.


It could be set up that way, but there's no need. Why would I have the bow
light on without the stern light... that's where I wasn't thinking
correctly.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message
et...
"Jere Lull" wrote
The stern light should be on the nav switch, as it should be on with the
red and green ones, under sail or power.

That's how it was on my power boat, but my sail boat has separate switches
for bow and stern lights. I wonder why? Is there ever a time when you
don't want the front and back lit up simultaneously?



I think not...

I was also thinking about a fly light for the windex... low-voltage LED, but
that should also be switched on when the nav lights come on. No reason to
not have it on that I can think of. The main issue is low amps.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel (new thoughts)
 

wrote in message
...
On Mar 27, 12:48 am, wrote:
... Or, if remembering to turn them on or off is a problem, you could
simply get in
the habit of turning on the NAV lights when you get underway as part of
the same
ritual when you get other things ready, and turn them off when you return
and
put things away. ...

Many commercial operators do this. On a sailboat going between power
and sail might be an issue. If using conventional lights then the
steaming light (masthead) could be turned on by the ignition. If
using a tri-color then you'd need some way of switching between it and
the under-power lights.

-- Tom.


I don't have tri-color lights.

I was thinking, inspiried by Salty among others, of an even more simple
approach....

Currently, as I probably mentioned, I have the regular nav lights - one
bowlight that does double duty via a red/green lens, a stern light, a
steaming light. I don't know how much amps they draw but I'm seriously
considering (have been for a while) converting these to LEDs. I'm also
considering adding a fly light for the windex at night. There's a spare wire
that's already there I believe, but I haven't confirmed this.

My current thought is to not bother about the nav/stern/fly system, since
it's never a rush getting those on. The only issue would be switching the
masthead light on when the engine goes on (which might be a rush situation).
So, if I limit my upgrade to just doing that, then I just need to figure out
a way to get that one light on at the appropriate moment. I could probably
rig something off the ignition key switch as previously discussed), but I
was thinking another way to do it would be to just have one on/off switch
for the masthead (currently on the panel) but relocate that switch near the
key, instead of at the panel.

Why would I need to run the masthead light from below without the engine
being on... I can't think of a reason.

I'm really trying hard to make this as simple as possible.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:58:39 -0700, in message

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all the
way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

I find that in "less than ideal" conditions I can usually see the bow
lights reflected in the spray.

Ryk

duplicate nav lights panel
 

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:31:18 -0700, in message

"Capt. JG" wrote:


I've been putting it off mostly because of where to put it is an issue. I'd
likely have to increase the size of the cutout for the new panel, which I
hate doing.

If you do so, consider a Xantrex Link 10 or similar instead of a
simple ammeter. The cost is moderate and it provides way more
information about the operation of the charging and battery system.
There's no high load wiring except for the shunt in the ground line,
so it is easy to install independent of the panel.

With mine, not only can I see when things go on and off, I can get an
accurate read of actual current draw for various components.

Ryk

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Ryk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:31:18 -0700, in message

"Capt. JG" wrote:


I've been putting it off mostly because of where to put it is an issue.
I'd
likely have to increase the size of the cutout for the new panel, which I
hate doing.

If you do so, consider a Xantrex Link 10 or similar instead of a
simple ammeter. The cost is moderate and it provides way more
information about the operation of the charging and battery system.
There's no high load wiring except for the shunt in the ground line,
so it is easy to install independent of the panel.

With mine, not only can I see when things go on and off, I can get an
accurate read of actual current draw for various components.

Ryk



Thanks! Looks interesting and can be had for under $200... my price range.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

duplicate nav lights panel
 

"Ryk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:58:39 -0700, in message

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all
the
way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

I find that in "less than ideal" conditions I can usually see the bow
lights reflected in the spray.

Ryk



Can't even see the pulpit when there's fog. LOL

I guess in that situation, the lights won't matter either way.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com