|
Sea Anchors and Drogues
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues.
Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
wrote:
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. I just finished reading "Heavy Weather Tactics using sea anchors and drogues" by Earl Hinz. He leans heavily toward Para-tech sea anchors and doesn't say much about drogues. A good internet source for drogues is http://www.seriesdrogue.com/ and they basically disdain sea anchors. Basically, imho, it boils down to the fact that either used properly, will do the job. A sea anchor anchors you in place by the bow, a series drogue anchors you in place by the stern, a non series drogue slows you down while running away. Gordon |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 2, 1:26*pm, wrote:
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues.. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor.. Lets see, Either youre stupid............ board.............. lazy.......... or a troll. SO which is it? This dead horse was whipped enough. Do a SEARCH THIS GROUP. Read ur eyes raw. Get the books then lets talk. Bob |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 2, 2:35*pm, Gordon wrote:
wrote: * *I just finished reading "Heavy Weather Tactics using sea anchors and drogues" by Earl Hinz. * *He leans heavily toward Para-tech sea anchors and doesn't say much about drogues. I disagree. That is not what I gleaned from Hinz work. * Basically, imho, it boils down to the fact that either used properly, will do the job. Hummm, and you base that on how much experince????? Here I disagree strenously! BOb |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
"Bob" wrote in message ... On Jan 2, 1:26 pm, wrote: I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. Lets see, Either youre stupid............ board.............. lazy.......... or a troll. SO which is it? This dead horse was whipped enough. Do a SEARCH THIS GROUP. Read ur eyes raw. Get the books then lets talk. Bob I consider your reply as Internet bullying. Any information coming from an Internet bully is considered not reliable. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
In article , Bob wrote:
Either youre stupid............ board If you wish to communicate effectively ensure an understanding of the language sufficient that you are able to coherently express your ideas. Failure to do so may impede others understanding of your meaning. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
wrote: I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Since you are obviously bored or have cabin fever, think of these devices as like chicken soup. No medicinal value, but hadn't oughta hurt either. Lew |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 2, 4:41*pm, wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message Lets see, Either youre stupid............ board.............. lazy.......... or a troll. I consider your reply as Internet bullying. Any information coming from an Internet bully is considered not reliable. I dont give a ****............. so what kept you from looking at all the past post regarding this topic? Too lazy or too stupid?? Hey...... is this you Wilbur???? I like this new girly approach. I dont think Ive ever been called a bully? ALthough this place is a Bully Pulpit at times (TR) |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 2, 5:32*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
wrote: I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Since you are obviously bored or have cabin fever, think of these devices as like chicken soup. No medicinal value, but hadn't oughta hurt either. Lew I have to disagree with the medicinal value analogy. both series and single drogues are extreamly usefull.... uh, life saving. Bob |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 2, 5:32*pm, Justin C wrote:
In article , Bob wrote: Either youre stupid............ board If you wish to communicate effectively ensure an understanding of the language sufficient that you are able to coherently express your ideas. Failure to do so may impede others understanding of your meaning. * * * * Justin. Justin C, by the sea. So whats so dificult to understand: ".... stupid... lazy.... troll...?" Dont seem to complicated to me. Go back to reading your Martha Stewart O, and dont let the door hit your vagina on the way out. (as heard on "Knocked Up") Bob |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Thu,2 Jan 2008 14:32:38 -0600, "Stu" wrote:
Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet, a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had The 30 to 40 foot seas the Queen Mary was running in , during a winter Atlantic crossing, were no big deal for a ship that big. Then one flooded the wheelhouse, over ninty feet above sea level.Took out the glass. She rolled to within a degree or two of the capsize. I wonder just how many small boats disappear due to a much bigger than average rogue wave. I understand ships, not just boats, still occasionally go missing without a trace. Hard to believe what with COMSATS and so on. Casady |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 2, 11:26 am, wrote:
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. ... As several folks have pointed out (with varying amounts of tact) the group did a go 'round on this a few months ago. I believe the main thread was "Para drogues in large seas" which might not have been the first thing you searched on. I don't think there would be any harm in re-visiting the discussion though, given the statistical rarity of needing a sea anchor or drogue, if you've looked at the Drag Device Database and the series drogue sites you may know as much about this as anyone already. -- Tom. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:40:42 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote: wrote I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. There was a long exchange here very recently about this. A search would be more productive than trying to do it all over again. Usenet is a dynamic environment. Posters come and go. There's always the possibility for a new experience to be elicited by opening a topic. Otherwise, it will die quickly enough. You're right about searching first though. --Vic |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
Bob wrote:
On Jan 2, 2:35 pm, Gordon wrote: wrote: I just finished reading "Heavy Weather Tactics using sea anchors and drogues" by Earl Hinz. He leans heavily toward Para-tech sea anchors and doesn't say much about drogues. I disagree. That is not what I gleaned from Hinz work. Basically, imho, it boils down to the fact that either used properly, will do the job. Hummm, and you base that on how much experince????? Here I disagree strenously! BOb Well Bob, what did you get from his book? And I wasn't citing experiences, only the references. Why do you strenuously disagree? What are your first hand experiences? Gordon |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On 2008-01-02 16:26:35 -0500, said:
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. Yes, this was discussed a while back, but it's topical, the water's getting hard up here, and I'm bored. ;-) My personal preference is a series drogue off of the bow, but that's because I can unship our rudder and put it below. If I couldn't, I'd go off the stern as even an large anchor or drogue will allow some motion which, in combination with the wave action, can trash a rudder if it's pinned to a stop. The lower shock-loads and easier stowage of the series drogues are compelling reasons for the equipment. My thinking on bow-first: Xan keeps wind-driven water out much more easily when facing the wind. We've got pretty good reserve buoyancy at the bow, too. I'm not as worried about breaking waves on our overly-flat deck compared to taking them in the cockpit, which isn't as well reinforced as our foredeck. And I wonder if our half-inch drop-boards (actually the teak trim holding them) will take a hard hit. The one thing I don't worry too much about is the size of our cockpit as the bridge-deck is a couple of inches higher than the transom, so it'll capture relatively little water (though that's still 12-15 cubic feet or maybe 1000# static weight). Hmmm. While I'm at it, I should probably add replacing our solar vents with their plugs to the checklist as while they're low drag and not easily removed, they will admit water in such extreme situations and a wave could pull one or more out, putting 4 inch holes over our head. Probably should also improve the hatch lock-downs and weatherstripping. If anyone's reading carefully, the above was a re-evaluation of my previous plans, with an eye to figuring out what should be improved just in case we find ourselves in such a situation. Highly unlikely in this boat, but still: What *are* our weak points? -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
wrote in message ... On Jan 2, 11:26 am, wrote: I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. ... As several folks have pointed out (with varying amounts of tact) the group did a go 'round on this a few months ago. I believe the main thread was "Para drogues in large seas" which might not have been the first thing you searched on. I don't think there would be any harm in re-visiting the discussion though, given the statistical rarity of needing a sea anchor or drogue, if you've looked at the Drag Device Database and the series drogue sites you may know as much about this as anyone already. -- Tom. A thoughtful, helpful and polite post! It's a shame that this is unusual. Peter HK |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
Hey Vic;
I saw this post with your name. I had used drogues when I got caught in an extra tropical hurricane "Grace" back in 1991. Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet, a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had organized a lot of things using plastic milk crates. When we started surfing, I unscrewed the milk crates and attached to a stern anchor line. It slowed us down and things were controllable again. The plastic would break apart after 5 or 8 hrs. I ended up using all the milk crates. The storm was still bad, so I ended using my stern Danford 22 S anchor. It worked but not as well as the crates, the danford would pull down at about 30 degree angle. Where as the milk crates pulled at the surface. Awesome sight seeing the milk crates explode and tumble down a wave face. Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again. I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered. Stu "Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:40:42 -0500, "Roger Long" wrote: wrote I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. There was a long exchange here very recently about this. A search would be more productive than trying to do it all over again. Usenet is a dynamic environment. Posters come and go. There's always the possibility for a new experience to be elicited by opening a topic. Otherwise, it will die quickly enough. You're right about searching first though. --Vic |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
"Stu" wrote in message
.. . Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again. I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered. Stu A drouge off the stern slows the boat as well, but I see your point and agree with it. It seems that the rudder would also be under similar, but perhaps not quite as much, stress with a drouge. Another thing to consider is the safety of being able to deal with the drouge from the cockpit area vs. the bow area. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
I understand ships, not just boats, still occasionally go missing
without a trace. Hard to believe what with COMSATS and so on. Casady I was reading a weather and safety related site (can't recall the name at the moment) a few months ago which had the figure of major ships gone missing without a trace each year around the globe as averaging around 200. Since there was no way to determine what happened to them they provided no breakdown as the reason why they were wissing. I assume at least a few of them may be from hijacking/piracy as has been found in Somolia and elswhere. Red |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 3, 11:26 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... A drouge off the stern slows the boat as well, but I see your point and agree with it. It seems that the rudder would also be under similar, but perhaps not quite as much, stress with a drouge. ... Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a sea anchor or even heaving to. The faster you go the easier the ride. However, you must not broach and you must not pitch-pole. A relatively small drogue and a bit of sail forward will keep most boats from broaching even in pretty horrid conditions. I know of a very fast catamaran that sailed under drogue and spinnaker during a stormy bit of a Noumea to Auckland race with very good results. I set a drogue and storm jib and ran off quite comfortably in force 8ish conditions while a low passed north of me on my way from New Zealand to Tonga one year. On the other hand, if you meet up with a wave that can pitch pole your boat you want it to pass you as quickly as possible and you want your drag device to provide enough drag to keep you from flipping. So, the ideal drogue would provide just enough drag to keep you under control most of the time but would dramatically increase its drag very quickly during a breaking wave encounter. There have been attempts to make dynamically variable drag drogues (I recall the seabrake (?) and a ladder foil device who's name escapes men now). I think the series drogue is popularizing the idea of using a much draggier drogue and going slower and thus being hit harder by the seas but also gaining more protection from pitch poling. I suspect for cruisers going with more drag and at a slower pace is a good idea since the pitfall of trailing drogues is that it makes everything seem quite comfortable even when there might be a significant danger of capsize. But, the slower you go the more sense it makes to have the strong end of the boat pointed at the weather and at some point a sea anchor states to look like a less bad choice... I carry both on my boat. -- Tom. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:32:38 -0600, "Stu" wrote:
Hey Vic; I saw this post with your name. I had used drogues when I got caught in an extra tropical hurricane "Grace" back in 1991. Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet, a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had organized a lot of things using plastic milk crates. Can't say I remember those. I recall everything ship shape and, and never worried about anything hitting me in the head when we got tossed around crossing Lake Michigan. You probably got those crates later, when you started cruising the Atlantic and needed to store more "stuff." When we started surfing, I unscrewed the milk crates and attached to a stern anchor line. It slowed us down and things were controllable again. The plastic would break apart after 5 or 8 hrs. I ended up using all the milk crates. The storm was still bad, so I ended using my stern Danford 22 S anchor. It worked but not as well as the crates, the danford would pull down at about 30 degree angle. Where as the milk crates pulled at the surface. Awesome sight seeing the milk crates explode and tumble down a wave face. I *sorta* wish I had seen that, but your description will suffice. Good thinking, and that might be useful for somebody caught in a similar situation. Whether you're carrying a drogue, or sea anchor or milk crates, I've got a feeling that when caught in those conditions as you were, much depends on improvisation in the end. Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again. I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered. It all sounds tricky, and merits a lot of thought and consideration to the particular boat. --Vic |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
wrote in message
... On Jan 3, 11:26 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: ... A drouge off the stern slows the boat as well, but I see your point and agree with it. It seems that the rudder would also be under similar, but perhaps not quite as much, stress with a drouge. ... Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a sea anchor or even heaving to. The faster you go the easier the ride. However, you must not broach and you must not pitch-pole. A relatively small drogue and a bit of sail forward will keep most boats from broaching even in pretty horrid conditions. I know of a very fast catamaran that sailed under drogue and spinnaker during a stormy bit of a Noumea to Auckland race with very good results. I set a drogue and storm jib and ran off quite comfortably in force 8ish conditions while a low passed north of me on my way from New Zealand to Tonga one year. On the other hand, if you meet up with a wave that can pitch pole your boat you want it to pass you as quickly as possible and you want your drag device to provide enough drag to keep you from flipping. So, the ideal drogue would provide just enough drag to keep you under control most of the time but would dramatically increase its drag very quickly during a breaking wave encounter. There have been attempts to make dynamically variable drag drogues (I recall the seabrake (?) and a ladder foil device who's name escapes men now). I think the series drogue is popularizing the idea of using a much draggier drogue and going slower and thus being hit harder by the seas but also gaining more protection from pitch poling. I suspect for cruisers going with more drag and at a slower pace is a good idea since the pitfall of trailing drogues is that it makes everything seem quite comfortable even when there might be a significant danger of capsize. But, the slower you go the more sense it makes to have the strong end of the boat pointed at the weather and at some point a sea anchor states to look like a less bad choice... I carry both on my boat. -- Tom. My understanding is that the point of the drouge is to slow down enough so that you don't run into the back of the wave in front of you. Perhaps you said that.... Just thinking out loud. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 3, 8:29 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... My understanding is that the point of the drouge is to slow down enough so that you don't run into the back of the wave in front of you. Perhaps you said that.... Just thinking out loud. ... There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se (though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster). The problem is that when the boat is in a trough, independently of how it got there, the back of the boat may want to catch up with the front of the boat and that can cause a broach. Adding a bit of drag to the back and keeping the pull forward helps prevent this. -- Tom. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:38:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se (though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster). That invariably results in a lot of green water over the decks in my experience, and can definitely pitch pole smaller boats as the bow digs in and stops. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:35:26 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
On 2008-01-02 16:26:35 -0500, said: I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both? When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue. From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor. Part of the problem is that you have to make that decision early in the storm and you have to know what works with your particular boat and crew. Difficult, as you don't know how long or how bad the storm will be. Given enough sea room I think running off appeals to my natural tendancy to avoid problems rather than confront them. As far as expense goes, I bought a cargo chute for $15 from a surplus store, not really much of an expense as things nautical go. I plan to sew a series drogue with an expected expense of $35. All kinds of things have been streamed as drogues; warp, tires, sails- the mast. etc. Many ocean commuters during the 70's had a small reel type drum with warp and drogue mounted on the stern. This has to span the interval between 30' waves or whatever your predicted conditions are so you need to carry miles of line and the drogue had to be weighted so it didn't surface and lose it's purchase. On the other hand an 80 year old woman just tossed a ring type drogue from the stern with 25' of line and said it "slowed things down marvelously", she continued knitting and ended up in England some weeks later. In streaming a sea anchor from the bow traditional boats had a provision for chaining off the rudder at the boat centerline to avoid damage. The only reasonably recent production boat I have seen this on is a Falmouth Cutter, an $80k, 22' boat. You would need incredible deck gear and be dodging with the engine to survive using this method is my guess. Others have just run off setting a wind vane while they sleep down below. Have fun. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
Hey Vic;
The milk crates were in place before I did the St. Lawrence. All the creates were attached/screwed in accept for the anchor rode in the stern. You would have to have wiggled and poked around to find the milk crates. I now wished that I had taken my camcorder and recorded the seas and conditions. I just purchased the recorder for that trip and did not want to get the thing wet. NOW I wish I did take film.... sailing in the Perfect Storm is something you do not do every day, and hopeful never again. The only description I can add, when I was on the helm, I would look back at the waves - but you would not look back, rather UP at the waves and wave faces, after awhile you don't look back. Skipping work on the boat today until things warm up later this week. In the garage today rebuilding the cabinets in the head. Stu "Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:32:38 -0600, "Stu" wrote: Hey Vic; I saw this post with your name. I had used drogues when I got caught in an extra tropical hurricane "Grace" back in 1991. Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet, a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had organized a lot of things using plastic milk crates. Can't say I remember those. I recall everything ship shape and, and never worried about anything hitting me in the head when we got tossed around crossing Lake Michigan. You probably got those crates later, when you started cruising the Atlantic and needed to store more "stuff." When we started surfing, I unscrewed the milk crates and attached to a stern anchor line. It slowed us down and things were controllable again. The plastic would break apart after 5 or 8 hrs. I ended up using all the milk crates. The storm was still bad, so I ended using my stern Danford 22 S anchor. It worked but not as well as the crates, the danford would pull down at about 30 degree angle. Where as the milk crates pulled at the surface. Awesome sight seeing the milk crates explode and tumble down a wave face. I *sorta* wish I had seen that, but your description will suffice. Good thinking, and that might be useful for somebody caught in a similar situation. Whether you're carrying a drogue, or sea anchor or milk crates, I've got a feeling that when caught in those conditions as you were, much depends on improvisation in the end. Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again. I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered. It all sounds tricky, and merits a lot of thought and consideration to the particular boat. --Vic |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a
sea anchor or even heaving to. The faster you go the easier the ride. I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to provides the smoothest motion... the problem is that the vessel is not under command and cannot avoid being tossed in the largest crests. .... However, you must not broach and you must not pitch-pole. A relatively small drogue and a bit of sail forward will keep most boats from broaching even in pretty horrid conditions. I know of a very fast catamaran that sailed under drogue and spinnaker during a stormy bit of a Noumea to Auckland race with very good results. I set a drogue and storm jib and ran off quite comfortably in force 8ish conditions while a low passed north of me on my way from New Zealand to Tonga one year. On the other hand, if you meet up with a wave that can pitch pole your boat you want it to pass you as quickly as possible and you want your drag device to provide enough drag to keep you from flipping. So, the ideal drogue would provide just enough drag to keep you under control most of the time but would dramatically increase its drag very quickly during a breaking wave encounter. AFAIK that's one of the points of the series drogue. .... I think the series drogue is popularizing the idea of using a much draggier drogue and going slower Maybe, but the series drogue is mostly hanging down. As the boat picks up speed, more of them stream and drag increases. Boat speed increases, but not as sharply. suspect for cruisers going with more drag and at a slower pace is a good idea since the pitfall of trailing drogues is that it makes everything seem quite comfortable even when there might be a significant danger of capsize. Also with single-point devices there's a likelihood that a big crest will pick the thing up and throw it at you. This isn't hyperbole, seen it happen once. .... But, the slower you go the more sense it makes to have the strong end of the boat pointed at the weather and at some point a sea anchor states to look like a less bad choice... I carry both on my boat. What do you think of the task of switching from one to other if the sea state gets bad enough to warrant? And which would you deploy first, which would be the "ultimate"? "Capt. JG" wrote: My understanding is that the point of the drouge is to slow down enough so that you don't run into the back of the wave in front of you. Perhaps you said that.... Just thinking out loud. Also to keep the boat from broaching. As waves get larger & more violent, the breaking crests get disproportionatley large & have a tremendous wallop. The boat doesn't so much surf forward as get picked up and thrown like a toy at the beach. This is one reason why bigger boats are more seaworthy. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 4, 10:08*am, wrote:
Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a sea anchor or even heaving to. *The faster you go the easier the ride. I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to provides the smoothest motion... the problem is that the vessel is not under command and cannot avoid being tossed in the largest crests. Fresh Breezes- Doug King Hello Doug: Did you watch the USCG clip of Red Cloud bobbing along durring the "rescue"? I noticed what appeard to be two lines off the port bow. Look as though someone on the REd Cloude rigged a "Pardey Bridle" attached to a para-sea anchor. ANy thoughts? Bob |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
Bob wrote:
Hello Doug: Did you watch the USCG clip of Red Cloud bobbing along durring the "rescue"? I noticed what appeard to be two lines off the port bow. Look as though someone on the REd Cloude rigged a "Pardey Bridle" attached to a para-sea anchor. ANy thoughts? Bob Sorry, no.... didn't see the video, we don't have the bandwidth... however it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Joe either had a sea anchor or rigged a drag device of some sort. He's a seaman of long experience and a resourceful guy. One type of drag I've used with smaller boats is simply a couple of long docklines with figure-eight knots in them every couple of feet. A weight on the end keeps them from getting thrown forward by wave crests.... that's not a joke, I've had an unweighted one go from streaming astern to being tangled in the bow pulpit. One option I thought about but didn't try... simply dumping your regular anchor & rode over the stern (assuming one is in deep water of course), should make a pretty good drag and not get lifted in any wave crests. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 3, 11:06 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:38:18 -0800 (PST), " wrote: There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se (though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster). That invariably results in a lot of green water over the decks in my experience, and can definitely pitch pole smaller boats as the bow digs in and stops. Invariably? You need a new skipper! :) As a former racer of a trapeze dingy I know that full stop that launches the crew around the forestay. In the conditions where that happens the winners get to the bottom mark without crashing even though they will overtake a bunch of waves on the way... Of course, the dingy racer is moving very fast over relatively slow, small waves with an unreasonable press of sail barely countered by the movable ballast of the crew perched precariously on the back corner of the boat. Racers live to be on the edge of control. I don't want to generalize too much, but the situation offshore in an ocean capable cruising yacht is likely to be very different. Even in a yacht fast enough to be overtaking large waves the prudent cruiser will reduce sail to keep the boat within its controllable speeds and will remove sails that press the bow down and sails that increase the tendency to broach. In many conditions these tactics will allow fast boats to overtake waves in comfort and control. -- Tom. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:37:43 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Jan 3, 11:06 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:38:18 -0800 (PST), " wrote: There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se (though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster). That invariably results in a lot of green water over the decks in my experience, and can definitely pitch pole smaller boats as the bow digs in and stops. Invariably? You need a new skipper! :) As a former racer of a trapeze dingy I know that full stop that launches the crew around the forestay. In the conditions where that happens the winners get to the bottom mark without crashing even though they will overtake a bunch of waves on the way... Of course, the dingy racer is moving very fast over relatively slow, small waves with an unreasonable press of sail barely countered by the movable ballast of the crew perched precariously on the back corner of the boat. Racers live to be on the edge of control. I don't want to generalize too much, but the situation offshore in an ocean capable cruising yacht is likely to be very different. Even in a yacht fast enough to be overtaking large waves the prudent cruiser will reduce sail to keep the boat within its controllable speeds and will remove sails that press the bow down and sails that increase the tendency to broach. In many conditions these tactics will allow fast boats to overtake waves in comfort and control. -- Tom. A lot depends on the shape/steepness of the waves, type of boat, racing vs cruising, etc. When racing offshore we would almost never shorten sail as long as the boat was more or less under control. Cruising is another thing altogether. On a very fast, seaworthy 50 footer with high freeboard, we used to stuff the bow into the backside of waves all the time, typically bringing green water back past the mast. No big deal in normal, mildly gnarly conditions. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 4, 8:08 am, wrote:
Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a sea anchor or even heaving to. ... I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to provides the smoothest motion... Some boats are going to roll and slew about when running off. That should be controllable to some extent by over-trimming the storm jib and heading up onto a broad reach, but YMMV. At some point, though, heaving to will not be a viable option and running off is going to be less stressful than anchoring. On boats that don't roll so much running off will likely be more comfortable than heaving to right from the git go as long as you keep enough sail up and trimmed. ... the series drogue is mostly hanging down. As the boat picks up speed, more of them stream and drag increases. Boat speed increases, but not as sharply. Yes, but generally the series drogue is sized to be very draggy compared to other drogues and it doesn't have the swift transition from modest drag to high drag that the variable drag drogues have. ... What do you think of the task of switching from one to other if the sea state gets bad enough to warrant? ... I do not think it is practical to switch in genuinely dangerous weather. And which would you deploy first, which would be the "ultimate"?... It depends. It is no big deal to set or retrieve the drogue and if conditions were right and I was headed downwind anyway I wouldn't hesitate to set it. The sea anchor is pretty much a "hail Mary" for me for use when there is no other escape (eg. on the dangerous side of a storm or lee shore when beating becomes impossible). I think the sea anchor will keep you from capsizing in worse conditions than the drogue but that may be cold comfort if the superstructure has been swept away and you are sinking... -- Tom. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 4, 11:09 am, Wayne.B wrote:
... A lot depends on the shape/steepness of the waves, type of boat, racing vs cruising, etc. ... Amen. ... On a very fast, seaworthy 50 footer with high freeboard, we used to stuff the bow into the backside of waves all the time, typically bringing green water back past the mast. No big deal in normal, mildly gnarly conditions. Sure, but you were out having fun and pressing the boat a bit, weren't you? I suspect that If you'd dropped the main and gone to a chicken kite, removed some of the junk from the bows, and trimmed things so that the driver could steer around the bigger holes you would have been a lot drier but maybe still have been overtaking those waves... -- Tom. |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
dougking wrote:
I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to provides the smoothest motion... " wrote: Some boats are going to roll and slew about when running off. That should be controllable to some extent by over-trimming the storm jib and heading up onto a broad reach, but YMMV. At some point, though, heaving to will not be a viable option and running off is going to be less stressful than anchoring. On boats that don't roll so much running off will likely be more comfortable than heaving to right from the git go as long as you keep enough sail up and trimmed. And as the sea condition worsens, at some point, the boat will not stand up to enough sail to make it heave-to; and then again at some point the waves are going to be violent enough to toss the boat around unless she's held in place by more than her weight & underbody. The key is to recognize that conditions are going to ge worse beyond this point and prepare accordingly... Wiht regards to storm jibs, I've been taught that you set them trimmed tight & flat amidships; not like you would a normal jib. That way, any time the boat slews away from DDW the sail acts like a wind wave to turn her nose back, and doesn't yank the rig off the deck when luffing / slatting. Never tried it.... OTOH I have tried t set a trysail in conditions where it was needed, and found it impossible to do any work on deck, and we towed ropes as drogues to run DDW instead. ... What do you think of the task of switching from one to other if the sea state gets bad enough to warrant? ... I do not think it is practical to switch in genuinely dangerous weather. Yep. The best defense against really bad stuff is to be elsewhere. IMHO most people don't start thinking about reefing soon enough; and then persversely start wanting to switch to "storm tactics" like trysails & drogues when they should be just sailing the boat. And which would you deploy first, which would be the "ultimate"?... It depends. It is no big deal to set or retrieve the drogue and if conditions were right and I was headed downwind anyway I wouldn't hesitate to set it. The sea anchor is pretty much a "hail Mary" for me for use when there is no other escape (eg. on the dangerous side of a storm or lee shore when beating becomes impossible). I think the sea anchor will keep you from capsizing in worse conditions than the drogue but that may be cold comfort if the superstructure has been swept away and you are sinking... OK thanks. Wayne.B wrote: ... A lot depends on the shape/steepness of the waves, type of boat, racing vs cruising, etc. ... " wrote: Amen. And current plays a big part in this- that's one reason why the Irish Sea and the Tasman Strait have such bad reps. ... On a very fast, seaworthy 50 footer with high freeboard, we used to stuff the bow into the backside of waves all the time, typically bringing green water back past the mast. No big deal in normal, mildly gnarly conditions. Sure, but you were out having fun and pressing the boat a bit, weren't you? I suspect that If you'd dropped the main and gone to a chicken kite, removed some of the junk from the bows, and trimmed things so that the driver could steer around the bigger holes you would have been a lot drier but maybe still have been overtaking those waves... IMHO a good driver should be able to avoid "stuffing" the bow; it may take a bit of help from additional eyes spotting the crests. A chicken chute is a lot of fun but I've gotten fond of asymmetrics. DSK |
Sea Anchors and Drogues
|
Sea Anchors and Drogues
On Jan 6, 5:32 am, wrote:
dougking wrote: ... Wiht regards to storm jibs, I've been taught that you set them trimmed tight & flat amidships; not like you would a normal jib. ... I'd keep an open mind and an eye on the conditions. I've sailed my storm jib just like any other jib -- I've even set it with outboard sheets -- but we've been lucky enough to be using it in conditions where it was prudent rather than required. -- Tom. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:00 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com