I was part of the EAA for years, and my baby brother used to write technical
articles for them. To get an amateur built aircraft into the air requires a
serious inspection by the FAA and flight testing in an out of the way area. To
get an aircraft design "type certified" is a much long and expensive process,
and must be completed before an aircraft can be manufactured for sale.

No such thing is needed to produce a boat for sale. Anyone -- in most states
-- can call themselves a naval architect. Even an 8 year old girl in pigtails.

(JAXAshby) wrote:

Badly designed airplanes never get on the runway, let alone airborne.

You haven't seen some of the "planes" of the EAA ;-) I saw one lifting
body shaped like a flying saucer that even actually flew once, but no
sane pilot would take it up for a second flight.

Truth be told, the Quickie has some bad design flaws, but it sure proved
the power of canards. (12 hp, 100 mph and 60+ mpg, but I believe every
one of them was ground looped at least once.)


I have seen people who claim
to be highly qualified naval architects claim that the "slot" between an
overlapping jib and the main _increases_ lift, something no aero eng on the
planet would say of a biwing aircraft.

You don't win many races in multi-sail boats, do you?

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

I get the same effect from a reasonable
substrate and a handful of sand.

sand makes for one *mighty* RUFF non-skid (think 3M 50 grit sandpaper). Tends
to be tough on knees, ankles, elbows, hands, seats of the pants, swimsuits,
etc.

I get the same effect from a reasonable
substrate and a handful of sand.

sand makes for one *mighty* RUFF non-skid (think 3M 50 grit sandpaper). Tends
to be tough on knees, ankles, elbows, hands, seats of the pants, swimsuits,
etc.

A good suggestion - Sailnet hosts quite a few owners forums and they
are a good place to get inside information.

Eric

Rich Hampel wrote in message ...
I state again, when you get serious about the purchase of a particular
design .... go to the owners groups located on the web, etc.
Most of these owners groups have periodic rendezvous, etc. Thse owners
groups are usually open to 'prospective' owners and may invite you to a
rendevous or two. That way you will be able to really 'kick some tires'
and maybe get a sail or two in (the usual entry fee is a covered dish).

Also most 'good' boats are sold (quickly) though such owners groups.
Its the boats that dont move quick that get shunted off to 'brokers'
.... with added commission fees, etc.





In article , Eric
wrote:

I would recommend you stay away from the teak deck in a boat almost 20
years old. Teak decks, because of the screw holes (used to hold the
teak down), are prone to causing saturation and/or delamination of
the underlying deck core material unless the boat has been well
maintained for the entire 20 years. Just because it looks good
doesn't mean that the underlying deck and core are in good condition.
Repairing a saturated core is a major (read: expensive) job.

The PS Crealock is probably the best quality but, as you are seeing,
that comes at a high price. It's also pretty small inside (IMO).

Don't compromise on the boat. You can always stretch out the purchase
of the extras.

Eric

"Wendy" wrote in message
...
I had a close look at four boats today, all offered through brokers. The
experience was a pleasurable one; the brokers were pleasant enough and quite
helpful. The weather was a bit cool for my taste, though. Anyway, here's
what I looked over in the order in which I saw them, along with my thoughts:

Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36, 1985 Model: This boat is simply a very good looking
boat; it has loads of visual appeal and has been well-kept. The teak deck
is in quite good condition, as are the topside fittings and rigging.
Belowdecks, the engine is easily accessible, the cabin layout is sensible
and not ostentatiously ornate. She has a genset, which is a plus, but no
stove- a definite minus (one could easily be added, however). She's
radar-equipped, no SSB or GPS. She would be a fine live-aboard and coastal
cruiser, and should handle longer range cruising as the tankage is more than
adequate. I'd like to research Cheoy Lee's more; I liked this boat. At an
asking price of less than $60,000 she is well within my budget.

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, 1990 Model: Nice boat; she has a spartan
interior and a non-nonsense air about her. This boat is clearly designed
for ocean passages. Living aboard would not be difficult, but again the
boat is designed to go anywhere, not sit on a dock. At just under $100,000
she is out of my price range, so I didn't really seriously evaluate all her
features.

Cabo Rico 38, 1981 Model: She was once a nice boat, but neglect has sadly
hurt her. The below $80,000 price reflects the condition she's in; it would
take a lot of work to bring this boat up to snuff. The teak deck is shot.
I would take a pass on this boat; I don't want a project.

Tayana 37, 1982 Model: Wonderful boat, she has lots of room and is built
like a tank. She has a Perkins, which I like as I have lots of experience
with them. She's air-conditioned as well, a must in Texas. Very beamy and
not at all claustrophobic, the boat is clearly designed for comfort and
safety. She is equipped with a wind generator as well as a wind vane
steering system. She has no navigation station; the large quarterberth is
designed as an aft stateroom. I would prefer a nav station, but a fold down
table sort of thing could be easily added by a carpenter. Electronics
consists of an SSB; a radar and GPS system would have to be added (I am a
Garmin GPS junkie, I'll freely admit that Her asking price of $85,000 is
within my budget, though I would have to scrape for any planned add-ons.

It should be apparent that the first and last boats I looked at were the two
which appealed most to me. I have distinct reservations about a teak deck,
and while the Cheoy Lee is not the dedicated ocean passage boat that the
Tayana is, she would no doubt provide years of performance and satisfaction.
The Tayana represents security, comfort, and hominess. She has many of the
features I would like in a boat, and probably represents the better
investment of the two. It's quite clear to me that I am not exactly sure
what I want at this point in time, although I am sure that as I continue to
research and actively start sailing that this will become self-evident
before I buy. I understand now why searching for a boat can take quite some
time.

Wendy

A good suggestion - Sailnet hosts quite a few owners forums and they
are a good place to get inside information.

Eric

Rich Hampel wrote in message ...
I state again, when you get serious about the purchase of a particular
design .... go to the owners groups located on the web, etc.
Most of these owners groups have periodic rendezvous, etc. Thse owners
groups are usually open to 'prospective' owners and may invite you to a
rendevous or two. That way you will be able to really 'kick some tires'
and maybe get a sail or two in (the usual entry fee is a covered dish).

Also most 'good' boats are sold (quickly) though such owners groups.
Its the boats that dont move quick that get shunted off to 'brokers'
.... with added commission fees, etc.





In article , Eric
wrote:

I would recommend you stay away from the teak deck in a boat almost 20
years old. Teak decks, because of the screw holes (used to hold the
teak down), are prone to causing saturation and/or delamination of
the underlying deck core material unless the boat has been well
maintained for the entire 20 years. Just because it looks good
doesn't mean that the underlying deck and core are in good condition.
Repairing a saturated core is a major (read: expensive) job.

The PS Crealock is probably the best quality but, as you are seeing,
that comes at a high price. It's also pretty small inside (IMO).

Don't compromise on the boat. You can always stretch out the purchase
of the extras.

Eric

"Wendy" wrote in message
...
I had a close look at four boats today, all offered through brokers. The
experience was a pleasurable one; the brokers were pleasant enough and quite
helpful. The weather was a bit cool for my taste, though. Anyway, here's
what I looked over in the order in which I saw them, along with my thoughts:

Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36, 1985 Model: This boat is simply a very good looking
boat; it has loads of visual appeal and has been well-kept. The teak deck
is in quite good condition, as are the topside fittings and rigging.
Belowdecks, the engine is easily accessible, the cabin layout is sensible
and not ostentatiously ornate. She has a genset, which is a plus, but no
stove- a definite minus (one could easily be added, however). She's
radar-equipped, no SSB or GPS. She would be a fine live-aboard and coastal
cruiser, and should handle longer range cruising as the tankage is more than
adequate. I'd like to research Cheoy Lee's more; I liked this boat. At an
asking price of less than $60,000 she is well within my budget.

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, 1990 Model: Nice boat; she has a spartan
interior and a non-nonsense air about her. This boat is clearly designed
for ocean passages. Living aboard would not be difficult, but again the
boat is designed to go anywhere, not sit on a dock. At just under $100,000
she is out of my price range, so I didn't really seriously evaluate all her
features.

Cabo Rico 38, 1981 Model: She was once a nice boat, but neglect has sadly
hurt her. The below $80,000 price reflects the condition she's in; it would
take a lot of work to bring this boat up to snuff. The teak deck is shot.
I would take a pass on this boat; I don't want a project.

Tayana 37, 1982 Model: Wonderful boat, she has lots of room and is built
like a tank. She has a Perkins, which I like as I have lots of experience
with them. She's air-conditioned as well, a must in Texas. Very beamy and
not at all claustrophobic, the boat is clearly designed for comfort and
safety. She is equipped with a wind generator as well as a wind vane
steering system. She has no navigation station; the large quarterberth is
designed as an aft stateroom. I would prefer a nav station, but a fold down
table sort of thing could be easily added by a carpenter. Electronics
consists of an SSB; a radar and GPS system would have to be added (I am a
Garmin GPS junkie, I'll freely admit that Her asking price of $85,000 is
within my budget, though I would have to scrape for any planned add-ons.

It should be apparent that the first and last boats I looked at were the two
which appealed most to me. I have distinct reservations about a teak deck,
and while the Cheoy Lee is not the dedicated ocean passage boat that the
Tayana is, she would no doubt provide years of performance and satisfaction.
The Tayana represents security, comfort, and hominess. She has many of the
features I would like in a boat, and probably represents the better
investment of the two. It's quite clear to me that I am not exactly sure
what I want at this point in time, although I am sure that as I continue to
research and actively start sailing that this will become self-evident
before I buy. I understand now why searching for a boat can take quite some
time.

Wendy

wrote:

Looks nice, but I don't have the crew of "Master and Commander" to
keep it dry and clean.

There are two basic problems with teak decks. The first has to do
with boat builders who add teak decks as an afterthought to make
boats look "salty", and the second is owners who don't care for
them correctly. Of course the worst is a combination of the two.

A teak deck of proper thickness, properly installed with the
right screws, of the right length, spaced correctly, over a
properly built subdeck should easily last for 20 years or more
with few or no problems. Did some builders do it this way? Of
course. Did other builders skimp? Unfortunately, far too often.
How do you tell? Go to the owners groups and see how often people
are replacing their decks. Not to be a killjoy, but Cheoy Lee
would be one I would look at very carefully.

The other side of the issue is maintenance. We looked at a 30
year old boat where it seemed the only thing the owner properly
maintained was the teak deck. We looked at other boats where it
appeared that the owners had been keeping them clean with brillo
pads! They were totally ruined. Teak decks can die from too much
attention as quickly as from too little. Keep your caulk in good
shape, keep your bungs tight, mop it gently with clean salt water
and you should be happy. Use a deck brush or a belt sander or
harsh chemicals and you'll kill it quick.

Yes, they can be hot. This can be made worse by sanding or teak
treatments that take away the silver color. Wetting them down
with salt water will keep them cool and also keep mildew away.

(Actually, what's hot is the stupid black-anodized headsail
track! Ouch!)

Yes, they are heavy. The boat should be designed for them.

Decks are not supposed to leak - regardless of the type. Choosing
a boat with a teak deck is more daunting than a cored fiberglass
deck. However, proper research and a really knowledgeable survey
can make it a lot simpler. Also, you should know that leakage and
rot problems are *not* exclusive to teak decks.

Once you've weighed the cost, it comes down to what you prefer.
If you like the look and feel of teak decks, and you don't mind a
little additional work, go for it! If you don't like that sort of
thing, there's a world of fiberglass decks just waiting for you.

Cindy


--
the return email is a spam trap
send legit emails to cindy_at_ballreich_dot_net

wrote:

Looks nice, but I don't have the crew of "Master and Commander" to
keep it dry and clean.

There are two basic problems with teak decks. The first has to do
with boat builders who add teak decks as an afterthought to make
boats look "salty", and the second is owners who don't care for
them correctly. Of course the worst is a combination of the two.

A teak deck of proper thickness, properly installed with the
right screws, of the right length, spaced correctly, over a
properly built subdeck should easily last for 20 years or more
with few or no problems. Did some builders do it this way? Of
course. Did other builders skimp? Unfortunately, far too often.
How do you tell? Go to the owners groups and see how often people
are replacing their decks. Not to be a killjoy, but Cheoy Lee
would be one I would look at very carefully.

The other side of the issue is maintenance. We looked at a 30
year old boat where it seemed the only thing the owner properly
maintained was the teak deck. We looked at other boats where it
appeared that the owners had been keeping them clean with brillo
pads! They were totally ruined. Teak decks can die from too much
attention as quickly as from too little. Keep your caulk in good
shape, keep your bungs tight, mop it gently with clean salt water
and you should be happy. Use a deck brush or a belt sander or
harsh chemicals and you'll kill it quick.

Yes, they can be hot. This can be made worse by sanding or teak
treatments that take away the silver color. Wetting them down
with salt water will keep them cool and also keep mildew away.

(Actually, what's hot is the stupid black-anodized headsail
track! Ouch!)

Yes, they are heavy. The boat should be designed for them.

Decks are not supposed to leak - regardless of the type. Choosing
a boat with a teak deck is more daunting than a cored fiberglass
deck. However, proper research and a really knowledgeable survey
can make it a lot simpler. Also, you should know that leakage and
rot problems are *not* exclusive to teak decks.

Once you've weighed the cost, it comes down to what you prefer.
If you like the look and feel of teak decks, and you don't mind a
little additional work, go for it! If you don't like that sort of
thing, there's a world of fiberglass decks just waiting for you.

Cindy


--
the return email is a spam trap
send legit emails to cindy_at_ballreich_dot_net

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:23:22 GMT, Cindy Ballreich

Once you've weighed the cost, it comes down to what you prefer.
If you like the look and feel of teak decks, and you don't mind a
little additional work, go for it! If you don't like that sort of
thing, there's a world of fiberglass decks just waiting for you.

Cindy

Very true, and I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I think if
you luck out or have the knowledge to preserve/repair/maintain a teak
deck, it's a Good Thing. But most don't, and don't have the time to
add to the already long list of Boat Stuff We Must Get To Before
Actually Sailing....

Maybe the solution is to learn how to INSTALL a teck deck, and then do
it yourself. At least then the blame and the credit fall where they
should G

R.

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:23:22 GMT, Cindy Ballreich

Once you've weighed the cost, it comes down to what you prefer.
If you like the look and feel of teak decks, and you don't mind a
little additional work, go for it! If you don't like that sort of
thing, there's a world of fiberglass decks just waiting for you.

Cindy

Very true, and I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I think if
you luck out or have the knowledge to preserve/repair/maintain a teak
deck, it's a Good Thing. But most don't, and don't have the time to
add to the already long list of Boat Stuff We Must Get To Before
Actually Sailing....

Maybe the solution is to learn how to INSTALL a teck deck, and then do
it yourself. At least then the blame and the credit fall where they
should G

R.

In her original post she said it was the Cheoy Lee that had the teak
decks, not the Tayana.

"Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36, 1985 Model: This boat is simply a very good
looking
boat; it has loads of visual appeal and has been well-kept. The teak
deck
is in quite good condition, as are the topside fittings and rigging."

Did they build them the same way? I don't know.

Eric

Rich Hampel wrote in message ...
The underlayment of teak decks on Tayanas is built up of softwood
squares individually isolated by dams of polyester. If such
underlayment does get wet it usually doesnt not spread accross the
whole deck as would be the case with ''sheets' of core filler.
Not that you cant get a soggy deck on a Tayana; but, if you do the
damage wont be as catastrophic as would a deck with continuous
underlayment filler. Teak deck maintenance isnt all that bad if you
kkep up a gentle and consistent regime of maintenance. Hell, I bet you
expend more time scrubbing a glass deck than a teak deck owner does in
periodically looking for loose bungs.

Give me a teak deck anytime. So what if it makes the boat a bit more
top heavy, **nothing** is this world has the non-dkid ability of bare
teak.