Useful gadgets
 

DSK wrote in message ...
Parallax wrote:
In fog, or at least when I see it coming, I take a quick bearing so
I know where I am, note my course and get out of the channel if any
and put up the radar reflector ...

Armond Perretta wrote:
You cannot know where you _are_ with a single bearing. You can, however,
get a good idea of where you are _not_.

If you're right on the edge of amarked channel, an EP + depth + bearing would
give a pretty good fix. My question is, how can you rely on taking a useful
bearing in fog, or even if a fog is approaching?




I rarely see other traffic where I
sail but in fog I sound the horn and sit it out, sometimes for
hours ...

Sounding the horn while "sitting it out" is a violation of the COLREGS. Use
a bell at anchor, and a horn underway. Make sure you study the sound
signals that apply to your specific situation and to your particular vessel.

Two points, still in play ;)




I still think Radar is just an expensive gadget for a small (28')
sailboat....

If you ask a fisherman's opinion about this, you may get an enlightening
perspective (isn't that what "Parallax" is about anyway?). Any person who
regularly operates a vessel without radar in situations of decreased
visibility (and I include rain and darkness in this category) is in essence
taking the position that "its up to the other guy to avoid me."

I can see his point, but really the question is not "is radar *just* an
expensive gadget" but rather would a radar be useful enough (in the context of
boat, location, and type of sailing) to warrant the expense & complication? In
New England, I'd say yes with no reservations. Too much traffic out there and
fog too often. Plus it is a very handy navigational tool.

In my own case, I mostly sail in the southeast where there is not as much
traffic, shores are low & soft, and fog is rare. Furthermore, I never had a boat
with radar until two years ago, and never sailed with anybody who had it who
knew enough about it to make it a useful tool under the circumstances. So I
didn't think radar was all that hot, either.

Having made a cruise this past fall in which we spent a good amount of time
learning to use our radar, and then going through several incidents that pointed
out how useful a tool it can be, I am convinced that it is a great thing to
have. It certainly expands the capabilities of the vessel & skipper, *if* the
time is spent learning to use it and make it reliable. To simply buy it and
assume that possession of it renders one bulletproof is stupid... same could be
said of any GPS.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Waaaaaaay too much literalness goin on here. With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are. This means
having a very good idea of your course. This way, with a single LOP
and your known course, you can get your position. With sufficient
time (and there almost always is) get another LOP.
Where I sail (or perhaps when), the density of other vessels is so low
that probability of encounters is low. Probability is higher near
channels, but I dont spend much time there. The one time I found
myself in dense fog in a channel, I made sure I could get out of the
channel into shallow water where others normally dont go. Here, if I
run aground on an oyster bar, I figure others prob wont follow and its
no big deal to me.
I'd rather spend time knowing where I am than looking at another silly
electronic gadget.

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Parallax wrote:


Waaaaaaay too much literalness goin on here.

Oh. Sorry.


With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are.

Agreed, but then, it's true without fog too.

I'd rather spend time knowing where I am than looking at another silly
electronic gadget.

Sounds to me like you assume that anybody who uses tools you don't have must be silly, or
somehow less competent that you. Snobbery is a very limited perspective.

Radar is a tool. You might not *need* it, but then, that doesn't mean that it can't be
very useful indeed to those who do have it. The more times you find yourself in
questionable circumstances, the more useful that tool can be. The fact that so far, you
have survived without it, is commendable but doesn't really speak to the issue of whether
that tool is useful and might increase safety & reliability.

DSK

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Parallax wrote:


Waaaaaaay too much literalness goin on here.

Oh. Sorry.


With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are.

Agreed, but then, it's true without fog too.

I'd rather spend time knowing where I am than looking at another silly
electronic gadget.

Sounds to me like you assume that anybody who uses tools you don't have must be silly, or
somehow less competent that you. Snobbery is a very limited perspective.

Radar is a tool. You might not *need* it, but then, that doesn't mean that it can't be
very useful indeed to those who do have it. The more times you find yourself in
questionable circumstances, the more useful that tool can be. The fact that so far, you
have survived without it, is commendable but doesn't really speak to the issue of whether
that tool is useful and might increase safety & reliability.

DSK

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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:23:28 -0500, DSK wrote:


Sounds to me like you assume that anybody who uses tools you don't have must be silly, or
somehow less competent that you. Snobbery is a very limited perspective.

Radar is a tool. You might not *need* it, but then, that doesn't mean that it can't be
very useful indeed to those who do have it. The more times you find yourself in
questionable circumstances, the more useful that tool can be. The fact that so far, you
have survived without it, is commendable but doesn't really speak to the issue of whether
that tool is useful and might increase safety & reliability.

I seem to recall the same argument faced shipboard chronometers in the
18th century. After all, a perfectly good "lunar" method of
determining longitude already existed and was backed by the Astronomer
Royal...the fact that it took several hours of fairly advanced math to
calculate presented no problems...on land.

Use what you need. The reasons are your own.

R.

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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:23:28 -0500, DSK wrote:


Sounds to me like you assume that anybody who uses tools you don't have must be silly, or
somehow less competent that you. Snobbery is a very limited perspective.

Radar is a tool. You might not *need* it, but then, that doesn't mean that it can't be
very useful indeed to those who do have it. The more times you find yourself in
questionable circumstances, the more useful that tool can be. The fact that so far, you
have survived without it, is commendable but doesn't really speak to the issue of whether
that tool is useful and might increase safety & reliability.

I seem to recall the same argument faced shipboard chronometers in the
18th century. After all, a perfectly good "lunar" method of
determining longitude already existed and was backed by the Astronomer
Royal...the fact that it took several hours of fairly advanced math to
calculate presented no problems...on land.

Use what you need. The reasons are your own.

R.

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Dave wrote:
"Armond Perretta" said:

Any person who
regularly operates a vessel without radar in situations of
decreased visibility (and I include rain and darkness in this
category) is in essence taking the position that "its up to the
other guy to avoid me."

As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights, "Dave"?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

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Dave wrote:
"Armond Perretta" said:

Any person who
regularly operates a vessel without radar in situations of
decreased visibility (and I include rain and darkness in this
category) is in essence taking the position that "its up to the
other guy to avoid me."

As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights, "Dave"?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

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Parallax wrote:

... With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are ...

Good idea.

This means
having a very good idea of your course. This way, with a single LOP
and your known course, you can get your position ...

You need to brush up a little on elementary piloting. Knowing the vessel's
"course" and crossing it with a single line of position does _not_ result in
a fix. In fact it doesn't even result in an EP.

Are you confusing "course" with DR track?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

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Parallax wrote:

... With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are ...

Good idea.

This means
having a very good idea of your course. This way, with a single LOP
and your known course, you can get your position ...

You need to brush up a little on elementary piloting. Knowing the vessel's
"course" and crossing it with a single line of position does _not_ result in
a fix. In fact it doesn't even result in an EP.

Are you confusing "course" with DR track?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

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As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights

when is the last time you saw an uncharted rock that shows up on radar?

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As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights

when is the last time you saw an uncharted rock that shows up on radar?

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JAXAshby wrote:
As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights


when is the last time you saw an uncharted rock that shows up on radar?

Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar ....haven't seen any
(charted or uncharted) with running lights.

otn

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JAXAshby wrote:
As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights


when is the last time you saw an uncharted rock that shows up on radar?

Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar ....haven't seen any
(charted or uncharted) with running lights.

otn

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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:56:36 -0500, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

DSK wrote:

Having made a cruise this past fall in which we spent a good amount
of time learning to use our radar, and then going through several
incidents that pointed out how useful a tool it can be, I am
convinced that it is a great thing to have ...

One important reason to buy a radar is because it looks really cool when
entering the marina, especially when combined with new foul weather gear.

Oh, I think faded (but originally expensive) foulies are much cooler
than new ones. :-)




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Entering your freshman dorm for the first time, and seeing
an axe head come through the door on your right.

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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:56:36 -0500, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

DSK wrote:

Having made a cruise this past fall in which we spent a good amount
of time learning to use our radar, and then going through several
incidents that pointed out how useful a tool it can be, I am
convinced that it is a great thing to have ...

One important reason to buy a radar is because it looks really cool when
entering the marina, especially when combined with new foul weather gear.

Oh, I think faded (but originally expensive) foulies are much cooler
than new ones. :-)




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Entering your freshman dorm for the first time, and seeing
an axe head come through the door on your right.

Useful gadgets
 

Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar

no you haven't. an uncharted rock will be below water or so low in the water
so as to not show up on radar with any kind of sea running.

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Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar

no you haven't. an uncharted rock will be below water or so low in the water
so as to not show up on radar with any kind of sea running.

Useful gadgets
 

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message ...
Parallax wrote:

... With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are ...

Good idea.

This means
having a very good idea of your course. This way, with a single LOP
and your known course, you can get your position ...

You need to brush up a little on elementary piloting. Knowing the vessel's
"course" and crossing it with a single line of position does _not_ result in
a fix. In fact it doesn't even result in an EP.

Are you confusing "course" with DR track?


Call it what you want, I know my geometry and trig. I live and breathe them.

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"Armond Perretta" wrote in message ...
Parallax wrote:

... With fog conditions
possible, always have a very good idea where you are ...

Good idea.

This means
having a very good idea of your course. This way, with a single LOP
and your known course, you can get your position ...

You need to brush up a little on elementary piloting. Knowing the vessel's
"course" and crossing it with a single line of position does _not_ result in
a fix. In fact it doesn't even result in an EP.

Are you confusing "course" with DR track?


Call it what you want, I know my geometry and trig. I live and breathe them.

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Only if you have an open array rotating.

--


Keith
__
"Great spirits have always encountered
violent opposition from mediocre minds."
... Albert Einstein
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Having made a cruise this past fall in which we spent a good amount
of time learning to use our radar, and then going through several
incidents that pointed out how useful a tool it can be, I am
convinced that it is a great thing to have ...

One important reason to buy a radar is because it looks really cool when
entering the marina, especially when combined with new foul weather gear.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

Useful gadgets
 

Only if you have an open array rotating.

--


Keith
__
"Great spirits have always encountered
violent opposition from mediocre minds."
... Albert Einstein
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Having made a cruise this past fall in which we spent a good amount
of time learning to use our radar, and then going through several
incidents that pointed out how useful a tool it can be, I am
convinced that it is a great thing to have ...

One important reason to buy a radar is because it looks really cool when
entering the marina, especially when combined with new foul weather gear.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

Useful gadgets
 

JAXAshby wrote:
Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar


no you haven't. an uncharted rock will be below water or so low in the water
so as to not show up on radar with any kind of sea running.

An uncharted rock may be always submerged, uncovered at low water
(potentially visible on radar) or always uncovered (visible on radar).
It's a big world out there and not all places that you may go to have
been thoroughly surveyed and not all charts are totally accurate.
Stand by my statement.

otn

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JAXAshby wrote:
Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar


no you haven't. an uncharted rock will be below water or so low in the water
so as to not show up on radar with any kind of sea running.

An uncharted rock may be always submerged, uncovered at low water
(potentially visible on radar) or always uncovered (visible on radar).
It's a big world out there and not all places that you may go to have
been thoroughly surveyed and not all charts are totally accurate.
Stand by my statement.

otn

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stand all you want but you ain't gonna see no uncharted rocks under water, nor
uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running, nor are *you* gonna be
anywhere there are uncharted rocks high enough out of the water to be seen on
radar.

And if you were, why in hell are you going so fast in a fog?

dude, you obviously have VERY limited to zero experience with radar. You read
too many books.

Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar


no you haven't. an uncharted rock will be below water or so low in the
water
so as to not show up on radar with any kind of sea running.

An uncharted rock may be always submerged, uncovered at low water
(potentially visible on radar) or always uncovered (visible on radar).
It's a big world out there and not all places that you may go to have
been thoroughly surveyed and not all charts are totally accurate.
Stand by my statement.

otn

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stand all you want but you ain't gonna see no uncharted rocks under water, nor
uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running, nor are *you* gonna be
anywhere there are uncharted rocks high enough out of the water to be seen on
radar.

And if you were, why in hell are you going so fast in a fog?

dude, you obviously have VERY limited to zero experience with radar. You read
too many books.

Seen a number of those "uncharted rocks" on radar


no you haven't. an uncharted rock will be below water or so low in the
water
so as to not show up on radar with any kind of sea running.

An uncharted rock may be always submerged, uncovered at low water
(potentially visible on radar) or always uncovered (visible on radar).
It's a big world out there and not all places that you may go to have
been thoroughly surveyed and not all charts are totally accurate.
Stand by my statement.

otn

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JAXAshby wrote:
stand all you want but you ain't gonna see no uncharted rocks under water,

Not with radar, but never said I would.

nor
uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area .... beyond your experience and
knowledge.

nor are *you* gonna be
anywhere there are uncharted rocks high enough out of the water to be seen on
radar.

Mebbe not anymore, but definitely in the past.


And if you were, why in hell are you going so fast in a fog?

Who said I was?

dude, you obviously have VERY limited to zero experience with radar. You read
too many books.

ROFL dude, you don't read enough books. I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.

otn

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JAXAshby wrote:
stand all you want but you ain't gonna see no uncharted rocks under water,

Not with radar, but never said I would.

nor
uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area .... beyond your experience and
knowledge.

nor are *you* gonna be
anywhere there are uncharted rocks high enough out of the water to be seen on
radar.

Mebbe not anymore, but definitely in the past.


And if you were, why in hell are you going so fast in a fog?

Who said I was?

dude, you obviously have VERY limited to zero experience with radar. You read
too many books.

ROFL dude, you don't read enough books. I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.

otn

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Dave wrote:
"Armond Perretta" said
Dave wrote:
Armond wrote:

Any person who
regularly operates ... without radar in ...
decreased visibility (and I include ... darkness in this
category) is ... taking the position that "its up to the
other guy to avoid me."

As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights ... ?

When was the last time you saw a submerged [sic] rock on radar? ...

Who said anything about "submerged"?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

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Dave wrote:
"Armond Perretta" said
Dave wrote:
Armond wrote:

Any person who
regularly operates ... without radar in ...
decreased visibility (and I include ... darkness in this
category) is ... taking the position that "its up to the
other guy to avoid me."

As to darkness, nonsense. That's why vessels have running lights.

When was the last time you saw a rock with running lights ... ?

When was the last time you saw a submerged [sic] rock on radar? ...

Who said anything about "submerged"?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

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On 24 Jan 2004 09:18:25 -0800, (Parallax)
wrote:


Any other useful things?

Portland Plotter - after one of my coastal navigation students showed
me one I put away the parallel rules. I still like a Douglas
protractor, but I use the parallel rules as an antique. The Plotter
is my mainstay.

After I demonstrate all 3, almost all of my students opt for the
Portland Plotter.

Jack

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On 24 Jan 2004 09:18:25 -0800, (Parallax)
wrote:


Any other useful things?

Portland Plotter - after one of my coastal navigation students showed
me one I put away the parallel rules. I still like a Douglas
protractor, but I use the parallel rules as an antique. The Plotter
is my mainstay.

After I demonstrate all 3, almost all of my students opt for the
Portland Plotter.

Jack

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then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.

indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks with
radar, as witness your statement below:

nor
uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area

Useful gadgets
 

then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.

indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks with
radar, as witness your statement below:

nor
uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area

Useful gadgets
 

ROFLMAO I see your self enforced absence did nothing to improve your
intelligence or reading comprehension.

JAXAshby wrote:
then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

LOL


I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.


indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks with
radar, as witness your statement below:


nor

uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area



ROFL You're so stupid, you can't even understand a simple sentence.
...... much less the ability of a radar to see "low rocks" without having
flat water.

ROFL Go back into hiding Jaxshole ... you're too stupid, uninformed,
inexperienced, to be out in public.
Nuff said, won't waste anyone's time further on your idiot post.

otn

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ROFLMAO I see your self enforced absence did nothing to improve your
intelligence or reading comprehension.

JAXAshby wrote:
then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

LOL


I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.


indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks with
radar, as witness your statement below:


nor

uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area



ROFL You're so stupid, you can't even understand a simple sentence.
...... much less the ability of a radar to see "low rocks" without having
flat water.

ROFL Go back into hiding Jaxshole ... you're too stupid, uninformed,
inexperienced, to be out in public.
Nuff said, won't waste anyone's time further on your idiot post.

otn

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no you don't see, no matter what you may feel you think.



ROFLMAO I see your self enforced absence did nothing to improve your
intelligence or reading comprehension.

JAXAshby wrote:
then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

LOL


I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.


indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks
with
radar, as witness your statement below:


nor

uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area



ROFL You're so stupid, you can't even understand a simple sentence.
..... much less the ability of a radar to see "low rocks" without having
flat water.

ROFL Go back into hiding Jaxshole ... you're too stupid, uninformed,
inexperienced, to be out in public.
Nuff said, won't waste anyone's time further on your idiot post.

otn

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no you don't see, no matter what you may feel you think.



ROFLMAO I see your self enforced absence did nothing to improve your
intelligence or reading comprehension.

JAXAshby wrote:
then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

LOL


I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.


indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks
with
radar, as witness your statement below:


nor

uncharted rocks low in the water with any seas running,

Without seas running, may. With seas running, still may .... might pick
up added sea return in a specific area



ROFL You're so stupid, you can't even understand a simple sentence.
..... much less the ability of a radar to see "low rocks" without having
flat water.

ROFL Go back into hiding Jaxshole ... you're too stupid, uninformed,
inexperienced, to be out in public.
Nuff said, won't waste anyone's time further on your idiot post.

otn

Useful gadgets
 

On 28 Jan 2004 02:05:18 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

then how come you are such a dumb squat when it comes to radar?

I probably spend more time as
radar observer, on my week off, than you do in a year.

indeed, you didn't even know you need nearly flat water to see low rocks with
radar, as witness your statement below:

That may have been true in the 40's and 50's. It's not true anymore.
There are all sorts of techniques modern radars use to find things like
low rocks in sea clutter, from simple ones like scan averaging and
doppler filtering to complex adaptive filters which model the sea
clutter and remove it.

Steve