Hi Larry W4CSC,

I think you need to take a look at the cable suppliers' specs before
telling us all about RG-58A/U 's wonderful features. Maybe take your
blood pressure medicine too?

Now about RG58A/U - this was the stuff you picked up for $10 at the
surplus store, wasn't it? :-) this spec is available new in
either foam OR solid insulation would you believe?

I checked several suppliers before writing this note: perhaps you
could check *your* facts too! You could start he

http://www.radialllarsen.com/docfiles/Cables.pdf


Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 06:01:33 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

All these numbers mean NOTHING if you pull foam cable around a CORNER.
The solid center conductor migrates through the flimsy foam that gives
it such a great set of numbers and it goes all to hell......

Solid center conductors also BREAK if you bend them back and forth as
the loose cable in the mast moves back and forth and back and forth on
every wave.

RG-58A/U has the same loss AFTER you pull it than when it was on the
reel. It's very flexible, finely stranded center conductor and very
hard polyethelene dielectric will take a helluva beating with no
migration around tight turns.

Most boats I know have no room for inch and a half hardline from the
radio to the mast......dammit. 58A/U (not 58/U which is solid
centered) works great for years and years......It's made for MOBILE
service.



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:42:59 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

I took a look at some sample specs to get a feel for the losses.

RG8X 7-9 dB/100 ft @ 400MHz
RG8U 4 dB/100 ft @ 400 MHz

You likely won't be operating at 400 MHz, but I'll use these figures
all the same. (Lower Fx is less lossy)

And I'll suppose that, what with the connectors, the loss is 8dB
versus 4 dB
That's 4 more dB

8 dB means you lose about 84% of your transmitter power.
4 dB means you lose about 60% of your power

So do you want 40 or do you want 16 ??

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:46:44 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Bruce" writes:
I have to replace the wiring in my 58' mast plus 20' to my radio; my
question is this. RG 8x vs RG 8U.

snip

RG8U and support it with a messenger cable.

The difference in cost gets lost in the wash.

I use 1/16" S/S cable and secure the RG8U to it with tie wraps every 2'-3'.

If you don't support it, it will stretch and the impedance will change or so
I was told by a radio guru I trust.

HTH



Larry W4CSC

I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

I am looking at the Ancor brand RG-8x which has tined stranded core. Could
I also use this type wire for the 10' run from my SSB tuner to the backstay?
What I had on the SSB was GTO-15???
Thanks
Bruce
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
news
I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

I am looking at the Ancor brand RG-8x which has tined stranded core. Could
I also use this type wire for the 10' run from my SSB tuner to the backstay?
What I had on the SSB was GTO-15???
Thanks
Bruce
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
news
I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

This is the same Larry that says that he has a 150 watt VHF amplifier
to switch in the antenna line if he can't be heard.
Yet he recommends using lossy rg58 cable. Old surplus stuff at that!
When cable ages it does not always do so gracefully. The dielectric
breaks down and the losses can be considerably higher than new cable.

For the amount of work involved and the minimal cost of 100 feet of
RG8 type cable, use the best NEW cable.
RG8 with polyethylene insulation is the way to go unless you have a
size restraint. And forget the aluminum wrap shield stuff. You are
asking for trouble in the marine environment with aluminum.
You do not need "high shielding" for a VHF radio.
Foam insulation is not a good idea on a boat though. The center does
migrate at bends. It is also very difficult to install connectors on
foam cable. The heat from the soldering iron melts the insulation
quickly and lets the center wire move to the side. Sometimes even
shorting it.

Regards
Gary


On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:53:08 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

This is the same Larry that says that he has a 150 watt VHF amplifier
to switch in the antenna line if he can't be heard.
Yet he recommends using lossy rg58 cable. Old surplus stuff at that!
When cable ages it does not always do so gracefully. The dielectric
breaks down and the losses can be considerably higher than new cable.

For the amount of work involved and the minimal cost of 100 feet of
RG8 type cable, use the best NEW cable.
RG8 with polyethylene insulation is the way to go unless you have a
size restraint. And forget the aluminum wrap shield stuff. You are
asking for trouble in the marine environment with aluminum.
You do not need "high shielding" for a VHF radio.
Foam insulation is not a good idea on a boat though. The center does
migrate at bends. It is also very difficult to install connectors on
foam cable. The heat from the soldering iron melts the insulation
quickly and lets the center wire move to the side. Sometimes even
shorting it.

Regards
Gary


On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:53:08 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

GTO-15 is a single conductor (often 14 gage stranded) rubber
insulated pvc clad unshielded cable used for neon signs and ignition
wires.

It is chosen for its 15 kVolt insulation, which can handle most any
3 - 30 Mhz transmitter signals, which may involve high voltages,
but it is unshielded.

If the RG-8X you have in mind has stranded conductor and foam
insulation, this will have a much lower working voltage
(they seem to rate between 300 volts and 1500 volts).

The people who get hot under the collar about foam insulation have a
point; you can easily wipe out transmitter range by treading on that
stuff just once. It is inevitably more delicate than solid insulation.

In a marine environment, it is reasonable to go for durability
where total runs are reasonably short.

It's true that a hundred feet of cable up a tall mast can give away a
lot of transmitter power at VHF and UHF; much more so at higher
frequencies still, and you might want to consider a well secured and
protected lower loss cable type there.
In general, if the cable type you have been using has
been satisfactory, that's the first option at renewal time.

Above all, you don't pick a regular co ax for GPS antennas, where the
losses mount rapidly.
Hope this helps somewhat, without making too many people mad.
I do have the FCC license to fool with these radio/radar installations
commercially, for what its worth.

Brian W

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:06:09 -0500, "Bruce"
wrote:

I am looking at the Ancor brand RG-8x which has tined stranded core. Could
I also use this type wire for the 10' run from my SSB tuner to the backstay?
What I had on the SSB was GTO-15???
Thanks
Bruce
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
news
I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

GTO-15 is a single conductor (often 14 gage stranded) rubber
insulated pvc clad unshielded cable used for neon signs and ignition
wires.

It is chosen for its 15 kVolt insulation, which can handle most any
3 - 30 Mhz transmitter signals, which may involve high voltages,
but it is unshielded.

If the RG-8X you have in mind has stranded conductor and foam
insulation, this will have a much lower working voltage
(they seem to rate between 300 volts and 1500 volts).

The people who get hot under the collar about foam insulation have a
point; you can easily wipe out transmitter range by treading on that
stuff just once. It is inevitably more delicate than solid insulation.

In a marine environment, it is reasonable to go for durability
where total runs are reasonably short.

It's true that a hundred feet of cable up a tall mast can give away a
lot of transmitter power at VHF and UHF; much more so at higher
frequencies still, and you might want to consider a well secured and
protected lower loss cable type there.
In general, if the cable type you have been using has
been satisfactory, that's the first option at renewal time.

Above all, you don't pick a regular co ax for GPS antennas, where the
losses mount rapidly.
Hope this helps somewhat, without making too many people mad.
I do have the FCC license to fool with these radio/radar installations
commercially, for what its worth.

Brian W

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:06:09 -0500, "Bruce"
wrote:

I am looking at the Ancor brand RG-8x which has tined stranded core. Could
I also use this type wire for the 10' run from my SSB tuner to the backstay?
What I had on the SSB was GTO-15???
Thanks
Bruce
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
news
I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!

Brian
The RG 8x has stranded core and a solid insulator. What you are saying is
it will be good but not perfect. If I have a 25 watt VHF transmitter, I
should expect ??? wattsoutput at the end of an 80' wire. I am trying to
decide if I should go through the aggrivation of the thicker wire or accept
a loss in power. I need to find a 10' piece of the GTO-15 for my Icom
700pro.
Thanks
Bruce
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
GTO-15 is a single conductor (often 14 gage stranded) rubber
insulated pvc clad unshielded cable used for neon signs and ignition
wires.

It is chosen for its 15 kVolt insulation, which can handle most any
3 - 30 Mhz transmitter signals, which may involve high voltages,
but it is unshielded.

If the RG-8X you have in mind has stranded conductor and foam
insulation, this will have a much lower working voltage
(they seem to rate between 300 volts and 1500 volts).

The people who get hot under the collar about foam insulation have a
point; you can easily wipe out transmitter range by treading on that
stuff just once. It is inevitably more delicate than solid insulation.

In a marine environment, it is reasonable to go for durability
where total runs are reasonably short.

It's true that a hundred feet of cable up a tall mast can give away a
lot of transmitter power at VHF and UHF; much more so at higher
frequencies still, and you might want to consider a well secured and
protected lower loss cable type there.
In general, if the cable type you have been using has
been satisfactory, that's the first option at renewal time.

Above all, you don't pick a regular co ax for GPS antennas, where the
losses mount rapidly.
Hope this helps somewhat, without making too many people mad.
I do have the FCC license to fool with these radio/radar installations
commercially, for what its worth.

Brian W

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:06:09 -0500, "Bruce"
wrote:

I am looking at the Ancor brand RG-8x which has tined stranded core.
Could
I also use this type wire for the 10' run from my SSB tuner to the
backstay?
What I had on the SSB was GTO-15???
Thanks
Bruce
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
news
I recommend checking with suppliers' specifications for cable
construction materials: solid or stranded? solid or foam insulation?
%coverage of shield? Tape wrap? Non-acid outer sheath? before
blindly implementing Larry's recommendation below on choosing
cables. Yes: let's call it a reality check.

Brian W



On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:54:58 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:

... 55' mainmast has a Shakespeare 1/2 wave VHF antenna on top
with about 75' of RG-58A/U military surplus cable///
If I had to start from scratch, and couldn't buy a 500' roll of
surplus RG-58A/U for $10 at my local thrift shop...

I recommend using VERY flexible, and reliable,
Polyethelene-cored, finely stranded center conductor RG-58A/U (not
RG-58/U which has a solid center conductor) for your purpose. All
those fancy loss charts mean nothing when the fancy foam cables are
pulled through a sharp turn, somewhere. Hell, you can wind RG-58A/U
in a hangman's noose and it'll still work great! REALITY CHECK!!