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24 VDC appliances?
On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a
diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Having a boat is about making your own choices.
But you might be better off to listen to the people who say that gas is the way to go with cooking and water heating. Some folks would hold out for a gas fridge too, I expect. Using electricity is OK for heating if somebody else has the chore of generating the juice. You don't have that luxury. Brian W On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:20:53 GMT, misia wrote: On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Having a boat is about making your own choices.
But you might be better off to listen to the people who say that gas is the way to go with cooking and water heating. Some folks would hold out for a gas fridge too, I expect. Using electricity is OK for heating if somebody else has the chore of generating the juice. You don't have that luxury. Brian W On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:20:53 GMT, misia wrote: On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
You are going to find out that heating things with electricity takes a lot
of it. That is why gas is used on boats, mobile homes, etc for things that heat. And why most people run their gensets when using appliances. AC's use a lot of power too but you might get away with it. Consider this, a 1200 watt electric heater is drawing 10 amps at 120 volts. Drop the voltage down to 24 volts and now you need 50 amps. I will not tell you it is impossible but you will need a lot of batteries. "misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
You are going to find out that heating things with electricity takes a lot
of it. That is why gas is used on boats, mobile homes, etc for things that heat. And why most people run their gensets when using appliances. AC's use a lot of power too but you might get away with it. Consider this, a 1200 watt electric heater is drawing 10 amps at 120 volts. Drop the voltage down to 24 volts and now you need 50 amps. I will not tell you it is impossible but you will need a lot of batteries. "misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
HI Mi,
You have run hard aground on the 24 volt appliances. The selection is slim. Your best bet is an inverter, 12 volt charger and 12 volt house battery, Then utilize 110/12 volt appliances. Don't forget use 12v breaker(s). It would cost you less in the long run. Also, having a decent inverter (5000 watts or so will allow you to run your air conditioner, hot water heater or stove as necessary. Have a look at the link below. http://www.cetsolar.com/dcappliances.htm Good Luck, Capt. Frank la Dolce Vita http://www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks misia wrote: On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
HI Mi,
You have run hard aground on the 24 volt appliances. The selection is slim. Your best bet is an inverter, 12 volt charger and 12 volt house battery, Then utilize 110/12 volt appliances. Don't forget use 12v breaker(s). It would cost you less in the long run. Also, having a decent inverter (5000 watts or so will allow you to run your air conditioner, hot water heater or stove as necessary. Have a look at the link below. http://www.cetsolar.com/dcappliances.htm Good Luck, Capt. Frank la Dolce Vita http://www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks misia wrote: On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Wouldn't actually make much of a difference. If the 2KW water heater
were running on 12V, it would draw 167A. On 24V it would still draw 83.3A, draining the batteries in a matter of minutes, not hours...... Then, comes the problem of battery real estate. in the same space it takes to put 500 amp-hours of 12V batteries, you get 250 amp-hours of 24V batteries.....the same exact kilowatt-hour rating. If you parallel two 130AH 12V deep cycles, you get 260AH at 12V. If you series them, you get 130AH at 24V......the same exact power output in KwH. You can use smaller wire, though....(c; Running large electrical loads of batteries is a pipe dream on these boats at any voltage. There just isn't room for a proper battery bank, like you'd need. A 350AH large golf cart battery, which is only 6 volts, is only 2.1Kwh but at a very low rate like 20A, not 200A. We run 4 of these monsters in 2 banks in series-parallel to get 12V at 700AH in Lionheart's engine room. You can't use all 700AH because that would really shorten their life, so you only discharge them about 400-500AH before charging, and that's stretching it. Then, it's so hard to get that last 15% to full charge, there's no point running the charging engine for hours more so you lose 15% more capacity charging them only up to 85% of full specific gravity. This battery bank of 4 is about 4' x 20" x 24" tall and 400 pounds of ballast. In comparison, each CELL of 126 cells in a WW2 submarine is about 7' high by 4' by 3' and puts out 2V at 6,250AH to drive the sub 48 hours at only 2 knots on TWO 126 cell banks...one forward, one aft. WW2 subs carried nearly 1000 TONS of batteries to accomplish this level of power. No wonder they sank a perfectly good boat! With an 80A alternator running flat out, you can recharge Lionhearts 400AH "standard discharge" in about 5.5 hours. Charging too fast, and this is almost too fast, makes charging more dangerous (heat) and boils off the electrolyte (hydrogen). With a tapering charge, it takes longer...6-7 hours. At 80A, the fanbelt better be TIGHT! Charging monster battery banks is another problem altogether..... Nothing is funnier than a boater with a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with a big smile on his face....... The real answer is a super quiet insulated diesel genset with a small starting battery and a hundred gallons of #2 fuel oil.....an immense pool of liquid power...(c; The Navy prefers nuclear power but the refueling is messy. On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:20:53 GMT, misia wrote: On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Wouldn't actually make much of a difference. If the 2KW water heater
were running on 12V, it would draw 167A. On 24V it would still draw 83.3A, draining the batteries in a matter of minutes, not hours...... Then, comes the problem of battery real estate. in the same space it takes to put 500 amp-hours of 12V batteries, you get 250 amp-hours of 24V batteries.....the same exact kilowatt-hour rating. If you parallel two 130AH 12V deep cycles, you get 260AH at 12V. If you series them, you get 130AH at 24V......the same exact power output in KwH. You can use smaller wire, though....(c; Running large electrical loads of batteries is a pipe dream on these boats at any voltage. There just isn't room for a proper battery bank, like you'd need. A 350AH large golf cart battery, which is only 6 volts, is only 2.1Kwh but at a very low rate like 20A, not 200A. We run 4 of these monsters in 2 banks in series-parallel to get 12V at 700AH in Lionheart's engine room. You can't use all 700AH because that would really shorten their life, so you only discharge them about 400-500AH before charging, and that's stretching it. Then, it's so hard to get that last 15% to full charge, there's no point running the charging engine for hours more so you lose 15% more capacity charging them only up to 85% of full specific gravity. This battery bank of 4 is about 4' x 20" x 24" tall and 400 pounds of ballast. In comparison, each CELL of 126 cells in a WW2 submarine is about 7' high by 4' by 3' and puts out 2V at 6,250AH to drive the sub 48 hours at only 2 knots on TWO 126 cell banks...one forward, one aft. WW2 subs carried nearly 1000 TONS of batteries to accomplish this level of power. No wonder they sank a perfectly good boat! With an 80A alternator running flat out, you can recharge Lionhearts 400AH "standard discharge" in about 5.5 hours. Charging too fast, and this is almost too fast, makes charging more dangerous (heat) and boils off the electrolyte (hydrogen). With a tapering charge, it takes longer...6-7 hours. At 80A, the fanbelt better be TIGHT! Charging monster battery banks is another problem altogether..... Nothing is funnier than a boater with a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with a big smile on his face....... The real answer is a super quiet insulated diesel genset with a small starting battery and a hundred gallons of #2 fuel oil.....an immense pool of liquid power...(c; The Navy prefers nuclear power but the refueling is messy. On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:20:53 GMT, misia wrote: On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
When we got Lionheart, it came from San Francisco. It had a
rotted-out diesel heater to keep it warm. Sitting right next to this waste of good diesel fuel, was a Perkins 4-108 diesel heater POURING heat into its exhaust system so much they had to pour seawater into the exhaust to cool it. I've never figured out why boats in cold climates waste all this energy going out the exhaust. It's SO easy to make a cast iron heat exchanger in a dry stack, right next to...or even right IN the exhaust manifold that will just roast your ears with free heat. We retrieve some of it with the hot water heater hooked to the water jacket. Too bad so much heat is simply wasted. I have an electronics shop built into a surplus Air Force stepvan. My shop heater in winter is a 1KW Honda EU1000i power plant. I welded a pipe nipple on the little exhaust port with an elbow on the end. This connects to a copper tubing draining the exhaust gases out the deck under the truck. Keeps the shop toasty warm while providing me up to 1KW of 120VAC to run my equipment.....I figure I recover 85-90% of the heat produced by the engine. Its quiet enclosure makes an acceptable sound level to work in hidden away behind the cabinets. On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:16:43 GMT, "Lawrence James" wrote: You are going to find out that heating things with electricity takes a lot of it. That is why gas is used on boats, mobile homes, etc for things that heat. And why most people run their gensets when using appliances. AC's use a lot of power too but you might get away with it. Consider this, a 1200 watt electric heater is drawing 10 amps at 120 volts. Drop the voltage down to 24 volts and now you need 50 amps. I will not tell you it is impossible but you will need a lot of batteries. "misia" wrote in message mail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
When we got Lionheart, it came from San Francisco. It had a
rotted-out diesel heater to keep it warm. Sitting right next to this waste of good diesel fuel, was a Perkins 4-108 diesel heater POURING heat into its exhaust system so much they had to pour seawater into the exhaust to cool it. I've never figured out why boats in cold climates waste all this energy going out the exhaust. It's SO easy to make a cast iron heat exchanger in a dry stack, right next to...or even right IN the exhaust manifold that will just roast your ears with free heat. We retrieve some of it with the hot water heater hooked to the water jacket. Too bad so much heat is simply wasted. I have an electronics shop built into a surplus Air Force stepvan. My shop heater in winter is a 1KW Honda EU1000i power plant. I welded a pipe nipple on the little exhaust port with an elbow on the end. This connects to a copper tubing draining the exhaust gases out the deck under the truck. Keeps the shop toasty warm while providing me up to 1KW of 120VAC to run my equipment.....I figure I recover 85-90% of the heat produced by the engine. Its quiet enclosure makes an acceptable sound level to work in hidden away behind the cabinets. On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:16:43 GMT, "Lawrence James" wrote: You are going to find out that heating things with electricity takes a lot of it. That is why gas is used on boats, mobile homes, etc for things that heat. And why most people run their gensets when using appliances. AC's use a lot of power too but you might get away with it. Consider this, a 1200 watt electric heater is drawing 10 amps at 120 volts. Drop the voltage down to 24 volts and now you need 50 amps. I will not tell you it is impossible but you will need a lot of batteries. "misia" wrote in message mail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Mi,
I completely agree with you. Electric is the way to go for both safety and convenience. I would not have gas unless CNG was available everywhere and there is the rub. It isn't. The gas of popular choice is LPG and that is heavier than air. CNG is not. So for me, the best of the rest was electric. The other responders mentioned the impractcality of using 24V for heating and cooking. They are correct. In order to be all electric, you must use 240V. Even 120V is impractical because of the wire size required. You need a large generator, in fact you probably need 2. That means a big boat. The other problem is the noise from a running generator. I have overcome this problem with a shaft driven 6KW generator that is silent and a 35KW diesel generator, but then I have the space. Please be careful of capturing heat from your engine exhaust. Yes, it is possible, but if you take to much heat out, you will create acidic deposits that will destroy 316. If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. Steve "misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I wantMi, to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Mi,
I completely agree with you. Electric is the way to go for both safety and convenience. I would not have gas unless CNG was available everywhere and there is the rub. It isn't. The gas of popular choice is LPG and that is heavier than air. CNG is not. So for me, the best of the rest was electric. The other responders mentioned the impractcality of using 24V for heating and cooking. They are correct. In order to be all electric, you must use 240V. Even 120V is impractical because of the wire size required. You need a large generator, in fact you probably need 2. That means a big boat. The other problem is the noise from a running generator. I have overcome this problem with a shaft driven 6KW generator that is silent and a 35KW diesel generator, but then I have the space. Please be careful of capturing heat from your engine exhaust. Yes, it is possible, but if you take to much heat out, you will create acidic deposits that will destroy 316. If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. Steve "misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I wantMi, to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi |
24 VDC appliances?
Steve Lusardi wrote:
If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. ??? Are you suggesting there are systems out there that use the domestic hot water system as a heat sink for the engine cooling requirements? Or that someone would install a heat exchanger that is rated at a lower temperature than the operating temperature of the engine cooling circuit? Something is missing here. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
Steve Lusardi wrote:
If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. ??? Are you suggesting there are systems out there that use the domestic hot water system as a heat sink for the engine cooling requirements? Or that someone would install a heat exchanger that is rated at a lower temperature than the operating temperature of the engine cooling circuit? Something is missing here. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
That means a big boat.
Thanks to all posters for feedback. I have the luxury of a big cat and big battery bank. I'm not worried about the fridge , it's maybe 300W/24 hrs average in tropics and half of this in the north. As for the cooker- two hot plates at 1KW each seems a lot but given you use it for 1 hour/day it translates to something like 2kW/24 = 83 Watts average @ 24 hrs and I think it's well worth it given the safety,cost, convenience and simplicity advantages. Same goes for coffee maker etc. I did do my math before posting here and I understand how amps/watts etc add up. I agree higher voltage would be nice but we are stack with 24V and don't expect to be running generator at all times. Also we have luxury of designing everything from scratch as the boat is being built and can acommodate locations. In other words instead of long thick wires we can make them short for equipment which consumes a lot of ampers. I'm trying to be smart but not always conventional with this. I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. This is something that I'm considering to built around hybrid solution. I came accross this Webasto heater: http://www.navstore.com/pdf/webasto/Webasto%20TSL17.pdf What do you think? Another thing is - I'm wondering if we need a water tank at all? It takes lost of gallons to shower 10 people- it cost money and space. I remember seeing in some country (not US) showers with built in electric heater element which will simply just warm up water passing through a piece of the size of grapefruit. Regards M |
24 VDC appliances?
That means a big boat.
Thanks to all posters for feedback. I have the luxury of a big cat and big battery bank. I'm not worried about the fridge , it's maybe 300W/24 hrs average in tropics and half of this in the north. As for the cooker- two hot plates at 1KW each seems a lot but given you use it for 1 hour/day it translates to something like 2kW/24 = 83 Watts average @ 24 hrs and I think it's well worth it given the safety,cost, convenience and simplicity advantages. Same goes for coffee maker etc. I did do my math before posting here and I understand how amps/watts etc add up. I agree higher voltage would be nice but we are stack with 24V and don't expect to be running generator at all times. Also we have luxury of designing everything from scratch as the boat is being built and can acommodate locations. In other words instead of long thick wires we can make them short for equipment which consumes a lot of ampers. I'm trying to be smart but not always conventional with this. I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. This is something that I'm considering to built around hybrid solution. I came accross this Webasto heater: http://www.navstore.com/pdf/webasto/Webasto%20TSL17.pdf What do you think? Another thing is - I'm wondering if we need a water tank at all? It takes lost of gallons to shower 10 people- it cost money and space. I remember seeing in some country (not US) showers with built in electric heater element which will simply just warm up water passing through a piece of the size of grapefruit. Regards M |
24 VDC appliances?
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Mi, I completely agree with you. Electric is the way to go for both safety and convenience. I would not have gas unless CNG was available everywhere and there is the rub. It isn't. The gas of popular choice is LPG and that is heavier than air. CNG is not. So for me, the best of the rest was electric. The other responders mentioned the impractcality of using 24V for heating and cooking. They are correct. In order to be all electric, you must use 240V. Even 120V is impractical because of the wire size required. You need a large generator, in fact you probably need 2. That means a big boat. The other problem is the noise from a running generator. I have overcome this problem with a shaft driven 6KW generator that is silent and a 35KW diesel generator, but then I have the space. Please be careful of capturing heat from your engine exhaust. Yes, it is possible, but if you take to much heat out, you will create acidic deposits that will destroy 316. If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. Steve "misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I wantMi, to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi CNG is not heavier than air??? -- A friend is someone who knows you, understands the essential conflicts in your thinking, in your morals, and in your philosophy, and like you anyway. |
24 VDC appliances?
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Mi, I completely agree with you. Electric is the way to go for both safety and convenience. I would not have gas unless CNG was available everywhere and there is the rub. It isn't. The gas of popular choice is LPG and that is heavier than air. CNG is not. So for me, the best of the rest was electric. The other responders mentioned the impractcality of using 24V for heating and cooking. They are correct. In order to be all electric, you must use 240V. Even 120V is impractical because of the wire size required. You need a large generator, in fact you probably need 2. That means a big boat. The other problem is the noise from a running generator. I have overcome this problem with a shaft driven 6KW generator that is silent and a 35KW diesel generator, but then I have the space. Please be careful of capturing heat from your engine exhaust. Yes, it is possible, but if you take to much heat out, you will create acidic deposits that will destroy 316. If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. Steve "misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. I wantMi, to go totally electric (no gas) Regards Mi CNG is not heavier than air??? -- A friend is someone who knows you, understands the essential conflicts in your thinking, in your morals, and in your philosophy, and like you anyway. |
24 VDC appliances?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:02:37 -0600, Dazed and Confuzed
wrote: CNG is not heavier than air??? ============================= No, it is lighter and will not accumulate in low places such as the bilge. That has always been CNGs big selling point. For boats big enough to have a generator/inverter/large battery bank, I'm a great fan of electric stoves. I've owned an all electric boat for 4 years now, do a lot of cruising "on the hook", and can't imagine ever going back to a gas stove of any kind. |
24 VDC appliances?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:02:37 -0600, Dazed and Confuzed
wrote: CNG is not heavier than air??? ============================= No, it is lighter and will not accumulate in low places such as the bilge. That has always been CNGs big selling point. For boats big enough to have a generator/inverter/large battery bank, I'm a great fan of electric stoves. I've owned an all electric boat for 4 years now, do a lot of cruising "on the hook", and can't imagine ever going back to a gas stove of any kind. |
24 VDC appliances?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:34:28 GMT, misia
wrote: I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. ================================================== ==== To cruise with 10 people in the tropics, you're going to need a water maker and lots of power. You might as well spring for a decent sized generator with 110/220 volt power and not worry about finding 24 volt appliances or stove fuel. |
24 VDC appliances?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:34:28 GMT, misia
wrote: I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. ================================================== ==== To cruise with 10 people in the tropics, you're going to need a water maker and lots of power. You might as well spring for a decent sized generator with 110/220 volt power and not worry about finding 24 volt appliances or stove fuel. |
24 VDC appliances?
Wayne.B wrote:
For boats big enough to have a generator/inverter/large battery bank, I'm a great fan of electric stoves. I've owned an all electric boat for 4 years now, do a lot of cruising "on the hook", and can't imagine ever going back to a gas stove of any kind. Just preference I guess, I have had my boat for about 7 years now and while it is big enough to have a couple of gensets, an inverter, and a very large 120V battery bank I love my propane stove and wouldn't give it up for anything. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
Wayne.B wrote:
For boats big enough to have a generator/inverter/large battery bank, I'm a great fan of electric stoves. I've owned an all electric boat for 4 years now, do a lot of cruising "on the hook", and can't imagine ever going back to a gas stove of any kind. Just preference I guess, I have had my boat for about 7 years now and while it is big enough to have a couple of gensets, an inverter, and a very large 120V battery bank I love my propane stove and wouldn't give it up for anything. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
"misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. This is something that I'm considering to built around hybrid solution. I came accross this Webasto heater: http://www.navstore.com/pdf/webasto/Webasto%20TSL17.pdf What do you think? I did not check your link, but what you might want to ask your engineer for would be a design for a water-to-water (Glycol based)heat exchanger to keep your shower water HOT. This could be done with off-the-shelf electric components if you have the space, and need only be configured to your space by your architect and engineer. The electric would be your seldom-used backup, and you could have your choice of 120, 240, or custom voltage standard mount heating elements (check off-the-grid, solar, and wind power resources for these items). Rob * * * |
24 VDC appliances?
"misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. This is something that I'm considering to built around hybrid solution. I came accross this Webasto heater: http://www.navstore.com/pdf/webasto/Webasto%20TSL17.pdf What do you think? I did not check your link, but what you might want to ask your engineer for would be a design for a water-to-water (Glycol based)heat exchanger to keep your shower water HOT. This could be done with off-the-shelf electric components if you have the space, and need only be configured to your space by your architect and engineer. The electric would be your seldom-used backup, and you could have your choice of 120, 240, or custom voltage standard mount heating elements (check off-the-grid, solar, and wind power resources for these items). Rob * * * |
24 VDC appliances?
Rick,
If you use a water cooled muffler as a heat exchanger to heat your fresh water, at some point your freshwater tank will be hot enough. You now must have a mechanism to dump the absorbed exhaust heat or damage will occur somewhere in the system. Most colorifiers use the engine's cooling water circulating through an imersed exchange coil in the hot water tank. In that way, the engine's cooling system itself is the energy dump. If the exhaust system is used, another mechanism must be found. Steve "Rick" wrote in message nk.net... Steve Lusardi wrote: If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. ??? Are you suggesting there are systems out there that use the domestic hot water system as a heat sink for the engine cooling requirements? Or that someone would install a heat exchanger that is rated at a lower temperature than the operating temperature of the engine cooling circuit? Something is missing here. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
Rick,
If you use a water cooled muffler as a heat exchanger to heat your fresh water, at some point your freshwater tank will be hot enough. You now must have a mechanism to dump the absorbed exhaust heat or damage will occur somewhere in the system. Most colorifiers use the engine's cooling water circulating through an imersed exchange coil in the hot water tank. In that way, the engine's cooling system itself is the energy dump. If the exhaust system is used, another mechanism must be found. Steve "Rick" wrote in message nk.net... Steve Lusardi wrote: If you use a fresh water exchanger and your hot water tank is up to temp and you continue to run the engine, the exchanger overheats. So you need auxillary cooling, when your heat demand is low. I guess there is no free lunch. ??? Are you suggesting there are systems out there that use the domestic hot water system as a heat sink for the engine cooling requirements? Or that someone would install a heat exchanger that is rated at a lower temperature than the operating temperature of the engine cooling circuit? Something is missing here. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:42:21 GMT, Rick
wrote: Just preference I guess, I have had my boat for about 7 years now and while it is big enough to have a couple of gensets, an inverter, and a very large 120V battery bank I love my propane stove and wouldn't give it up for anything. ================================================= You're choice of course, but I'm not wild about having propane on a boat, and the convenience of not having separate stove fuel to worry about is kind of nice. |
24 VDC appliances?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:42:21 GMT, Rick
wrote: Just preference I guess, I have had my boat for about 7 years now and while it is big enough to have a couple of gensets, an inverter, and a very large 120V battery bank I love my propane stove and wouldn't give it up for anything. ================================================= You're choice of course, but I'm not wild about having propane on a boat, and the convenience of not having separate stove fuel to worry about is kind of nice. |
24 VDC appliances?
This is what I'm thinking too- if I have a large amount of electrical
connections anyway, why worry about a spark igniting a propane leak somewhere in the bilge? Plus I have cruised in arribean a lot and sometimes spent a whole day plus $50-100 on taxis to fillup $10 worth of propane tanks. M "Wayne.B" wrote: On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:42:21 GMT, Rick wrote: Just preference I guess, I have had my boat for about 7 years now and while it is big enough to have a couple of gensets, an inverter, and a very large 120V battery bank I love my propane stove and wouldn't give it up for anything. ================================================= You're choice of course, but I'm not wild about having propane on a boat, and the convenience of not having separate stove fuel to worry about is kind of nice. |
24 VDC appliances?
This is what I'm thinking too- if I have a large amount of electrical
connections anyway, why worry about a spark igniting a propane leak somewhere in the bilge? Plus I have cruised in arribean a lot and sometimes spent a whole day plus $50-100 on taxis to fillup $10 worth of propane tanks. M "Wayne.B" wrote: On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:42:21 GMT, Rick wrote: Just preference I guess, I have had my boat for about 7 years now and while it is big enough to have a couple of gensets, an inverter, and a very large 120V battery bank I love my propane stove and wouldn't give it up for anything. ================================================= You're choice of course, but I'm not wild about having propane on a boat, and the convenience of not having separate stove fuel to worry about is kind of nice. |
24 VDC appliances?
I agree. We actually will have the Spectra watermaker and these are extremely
efficient. I owned one for 5 years on a 31ft boat and with 5 people 2 120W solar batteries are able to maintain it to provide enough water daily. If we use spectra, the watermaker will consume approx the same amount of kwh as the fridge. We will have the generator as well M "Wayne.B" wrote: On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:34:28 GMT, misia wrote: I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. ================================================== ==== To cruise with 10 people in the tropics, you're going to need a water maker and lots of power. You might as well spring for a decent sized generator with 110/220 volt power and not worry about finding 24 volt appliances or stove fuel. |
24 VDC appliances?
I agree. We actually will have the Spectra watermaker and these are extremely
efficient. I owned one for 5 years on a 31ft boat and with 5 people 2 120W solar batteries are able to maintain it to provide enough water daily. If we use spectra, the watermaker will consume approx the same amount of kwh as the fridge. We will have the generator as well M "Wayne.B" wrote: On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:34:28 GMT, misia wrote: I agree electric heater might be the most energy hungry element, especially if the water has to be retained and temperature maintained in the tank for 10 people onboard. ================================================== ==== To cruise with 10 people in the tropics, you're going to need a water maker and lots of power. You might as well spring for a decent sized generator with 110/220 volt power and not worry about finding 24 volt appliances or stove fuel. |
24 VDC appliances?
The exchanger you mention is the engine exhaust exchanger or engine cooling
system exchanger? Do you maybe have any links to practical solutions? I have found 24V water heater heating elements which could be used as auxiliary. Regards M I came accross this Webasto heater: http://www.navstore.com/pdf/webasto/Webasto%20TSL17.pdf What do you think? I did not check your link, but what you might want to ask your engineer for would be a design for a water-to-water (Glycol based)heat exchanger to keep your shower water HOT. This could be done with off-the-shelf electric components if you have the space, and need only be configured to your space by your architect and engineer. The electric would be your seldom-used backup, and you could have your choice of 120, 240, or custom voltage standard mount heating elements (check off-the-grid, solar, and wind power resources for these items). Rob * * * |
24 VDC appliances?
The exchanger you mention is the engine exhaust exchanger or engine cooling
system exchanger? Do you maybe have any links to practical solutions? I have found 24V water heater heating elements which could be used as auxiliary. Regards M I came accross this Webasto heater: http://www.navstore.com/pdf/webasto/Webasto%20TSL17.pdf What do you think? I did not check your link, but what you might want to ask your engineer for would be a design for a water-to-water (Glycol based)heat exchanger to keep your shower water HOT. This could be done with off-the-shelf electric components if you have the space, and need only be configured to your space by your architect and engineer. The electric would be your seldom-used backup, and you could have your choice of 120, 240, or custom voltage standard mount heating elements (check off-the-grid, solar, and wind power resources for these items). Rob * * * |
24 VDC appliances?
Steve Lusardi wrote:
If you use a water cooled muffler as a heat exchanger to heat your fresh water, at some point your freshwater tank will be hot enough. Just curious, no one mentioned using the exhaust waste heat for domestic water heating. I have never seen such an installation and suspect it is pretty rare since for the reasons you mention it is a cumbersome means to avoid using heat from the coolant. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
Steve Lusardi wrote:
If you use a water cooled muffler as a heat exchanger to heat your fresh water, at some point your freshwater tank will be hot enough. Just curious, no one mentioned using the exhaust waste heat for domestic water heating. I have never seen such an installation and suspect it is pretty rare since for the reasons you mention it is a cumbersome means to avoid using heat from the coolant. Rick |
24 VDC appliances?
"misia" wrote in message ail.from.there... On my new boat I will have a powerfull 24VDC battery bank charged by a diesel generator and auxiliary sources. How powerful? Are you talking about a thousand amp-hours, or a hundred thousand amp-hours? I can't imagin the cost, hassle and space rewquired for the latter, but it is what you would need to provide what you are asking about. I did a bit of search but couldn't find much- are there any 24 VDC appliances such as cooker/oven, fridge, AC and water heater you could recommend? In general, it is impracticle to use battery power for creating heat, i.e., stoves, ovens, water heaters, etc. It simply takes too much power for too long to make it practical to store. Nevermind the voltage, it is more of an issue of watt-hours. I know I can run standard items through power inverter but I would prefer not to do it for the sake of reliability/efficiency/cost. Using the inverter, you have the reliability and cost of just one thing: the inverter. After that, you can use very reliable and low cost 110 volt AC appliances. To find 24 volt anything is going to be expensive, and the bottom line is that DC motors are just not as reliable as AC motors, and high current/low voltage is harder to work with (and thus less reliable) than higher voltage/lower current. I want to go totally electric (no gas) Then run your generator when you need the power, and use the batteries for the small stuff. A reasonable battery bank can run your lights, refrigerator, and through an inverter you can run small appliances (such as a blender or short use of the microwave), TV, stereo, computers, etc. When looking for 24 volt equipment, take a look at commercial and "mega yacht" sources. Lights shouldn't be a problem, but you may find that electronics are scarce and very expensive. Since your battery bank is most likely made up of a number of batteries in series, you could tap off a 12 volt line and have both a 12 volt and 24 volt system. Use the 24 volts for the higher wattage stuff, such as the inverter, windlass and lights. Use the 12 volts for the electronics, such as depth finders, VHF, etc. Run the stove, water heater, and air conditioning off the generator. Rod McInnis |
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