Mast wiring connectors.
 

"Wayne.B" wrote

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

Don't bet the farm on it.

As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the
prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running.

Clutch position is not relevant.

Lew

Mast wiring connectors.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:48:47 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty
Court. In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel
must follow motor boat rules.

Please explain to me the difference between running an engine out of
gear to charge batteries and running a generator.

Are you saying that if you run a generator you are no longer a
sailboat? Highly unlikely. Quoting Dickens' Oliver Twist: "If that
is the law, then the law is an ass".

Your query was answered by Lew in another post in this thread. It may be
worth adding that a generator differs from the ship's machinery in at least
one significant way: it cannot power the vessel.

As Lew pointed out, the problem is in trying to distinguish between a
sailing boat running machinery in gear or out. It basically cannot be done
with any degree of certainty. That is why the interpretation of COLREGs in
this instance is that a vessel running machinery _capable_ of propelling the
vessel is assumed to be "under power" in the standard sense, and hence
subject to the motorboat rules.

As a practical matter, sailing along and running the machinery in neutral to
power the batteries is probably not the best choice for a number of reasons.
First, you can get a little "kick" by putting the engine in gear. The noise
will be bothersome in any case.

Second, it is generally not a good idea to run small or medium-sized diesels
without a load, so your engine will benefit from doing a little work while
you charge up.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

Mast wiring connectors.
 

wrote:

Actually the USCG rules refer to

(1) A power vessel under way, defined as: The term 'power-driven
vessel' means any vessel propelled by machinery;

(2) A sailing vessel under way

and finally

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical
shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is
not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld]

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.

This gets into semantics all too quickly, of course, especially since the
COLREGs term "underway" does not mean actually moving, whether under wind
power, fossil fuel power, or in the case of a few larger vessels, nuclear
power.

As Lew has indicated, the reason that running machinery, even out of
gear, is considered "under power" is that there is no reliable way for an
observer to determine the crossing rules that apply. This is by far the
real mission of the COLREGs: to make crossing and passing situations
unequivocal and hence avoid collisions.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

Mast wiring connectors.
 

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

Don't bet the farm on it.

As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the
prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running.

Clutch position is not relevant.

In other words, any time I see a sailboat and I suspect an engine is
running, I can treat it as a powerboat? That's convenient!

Clearly such a simplistic view does not really cover the situation.

The point that the lawyer was probably trying to make is that if there
were an accident, a sailboat would have a very weak defense if it turned
out it could have avoided the accident simply by putting the engine in
gear. In fact, there are situations where a sailboat is obligated to
start an engine.

The rules work because vessels behave in a manner consistent with how
they appear. This is why special lights and shapes are generally used
when there is a possibility of mis-interpretation. Thus, a sailboat
should be treated as a sailboat unless it a clearly being propelled by
machinery. Similarly, the sailboat is entitled to act like a sailboat
since it knows it is sailing, and that is the way it looks. It is only
if a situation arises where the engine could "save the day" would it be
required.

By your lawyer's logic, any sailboat with an electric motor is by
definition a powerboat, because it only the flip of a switch away from
being powered. And therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that all
sailboats are so powered.

Mast wiring connectors.
 

On Aug 26, 6:59 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"terry" wrote:
I was trying not to get into a discussion about the mast lights
themselves.

There really is no discussion.

You have AquaSignal and those that when they grow up want to be AquaSignal.

They meet the COLREGS.

Typical German products, they do it right.

Consider an alternate lamp for tri-color ONLY if approved to meet COLREGS,
otherwise forget it.

As far as an anchor light is concerned, don't like top of mast location.

Much prefer having anchor light hang about 10 ft above deck using forestay
and jib halyard.

Take it down and store it at daylight.

At least when the drunks come back from a night on the town, they have a
better chance of seeing a light at lower level.

Since you are adding switches, use 3PDT for "sailing" and "steaming".

Cross interlock such that: (+)---(NCsteaming)---(NOsailing)---(Tri-Color
Lamp)---(-).

Cross interlock such that: (+)---(NCsailing)---(NOsteaming)---(Steaming
Lamps)---(-).

3rd circuit has NOsailing in parallel with NOsteaming to power
instrument back lights.

The above insures that only one set of lamps can be on at one time.

Settles any legal issues before they can develop.

As far as mast wiring, hang a 7 ( #14 AWG) conductor bunch lashed to a 1/16"
S/S messenger cable inside mast.

This will prevent cable stretch, and provide spares if req'd in the future.

RG58 is for the CB radio crowd, you want the big stuff, agained lashed to a
1/16" S/S cable to prevent cable stretch and resultant change in impedance
which would then require retuning antenna.

BTW, Carling will have switches needed.

Have fun.

Lew

Thanks Lew. Yes the RG58 wil have a loss of about 3 Db along the
approx 50 feet from VHF to the mast head. That's half the RF power;
the unit btw has two output settings one watt and 25 watt. There will
also be the same 3 Db loss on receive signal. But RG58 easier to run
etc. Also while I haven't looked it up the RG8 will also have some
loss, say one Db? So the extra difficulty and cost of RG8 is
justified; as compared to putting the VHF whip much lower down on the
boat etc. don't think it's major concern.

The CB of course is relatively low power, 3 to 5 watts. And at a lower
frequency (27 megs.). So the loss on the few feet to its taffrail
mount whip will be lower.

Yes we toyed with idea of multi pole / multi throw switches but opted
for simplicity. If/when sailing or motoring at night one is going to
check light by glancing up. This being a very non congested area and
since our white all around anchor IS the top part of the trilight
assembly I think we will leave it that way.

Question: We have a strobe which can be mounted on top of the
aforementioned trilight/anchor light assembly to be on its own
separate switch and used rarely if ever.

Thanks for tip about running wires inside mast on a messenger.

Terry

Mast wiring connectors.
 

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote:

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.


Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from
determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your
engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem.

It's not often that I can hear another sailboat's motor running from any
distance. If the sails are sheeted in hard and they're going dead into the
wind, or if they only have the main up in light winds (again, sheeted in
hard), it is fairly obvious they're steaming. Nobody, but nobody, in any
of the places I have sailed, uses the steaming dayshape. I did for a while
until I got tired of being the only one using it and nobody knowing what
it was for. Likewise with using sound signals. Overtaking boats in the
channel, I will sometimes sound the requisite two short blasts signaling
my intention to pass to their port side. Being inland rules, I'm not
"allowed" to proceed until they respond. But they think I'm just honking
at them and get all bent out of shape and return the flying bird salute.

You're not required to use the day shape unless you're on 12 meters or over.

I've only seen it once on the bay.

I wouldn't say it's always obvious, but it's not about hearing as much as
seeing the raw water coming out and wondering. Sometimes people do motorsail
with their sails full when they're in get-there mode (not that I think it
helps much, but they do).

Sound signals are more common here, especially when the fog sets in, but
also among the larger powerboats. We use the sound signals in our teaching,
but generally not in the marina areas because we don't want to annoy our
neighbors... I know, not exactly following the rules, but the horn is
available if we can't see or be seen. Every time I've used the sound signal
to pass, the other boat has not responded with a sound, but I did get one
guy wave me through like a traffic cop, which was fairly humorous.

Sailing or not, under power or not, I tend to apply the General Prudential
Rule and assume that everyone on the water intends to run me over.

Me too. :-)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Mast wiring connectors.
 

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Wayne.B" wrote

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

Don't bet the farm on it.

As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the
prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is
running.

Clutch position is not relevant.

Lew




I don't think anyone being careful would bet the farm on it. But, I could
easily see having an engine running but not engaged while under sail.
Assumptions like yours are good from the perspective of taking fewer
chances. I wouldn't want to argue either way in court.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Mast wiring connectors.
 

On Aug 27, 12:12 am, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:
....
As Lew has indicated, the reason that running machinery, even out of
gear, is considered "under power" is that there is no reliable way for an
observer to determine the crossing rules that apply. ...

While I think your conclusions are probably right, I just hate the
argument you are making here. I can't think of a single instance
where it would be possible for an outside observer to distinguish
between a sail boat with propulsive machinery running but not engaged
in propulsion and a sail boat with non-propulsive machinery
running... Prudence requires the observer to assume that a boat that
looks like it is under sail including its lights and shapes is under
sail even if it is belching smoke and water.

-- Tom.

Mast wiring connectors.
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 06:05:39 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

As a practical matter, sailing along and running the machinery in neutral to
power the batteries is probably not the best choice for a number of reasons.
First, you can get a little "kick" by putting the engine in gear. The noise
will be bothersome in any case.

Second, it is generally not a good idea to run small or medium-sized diesels
without a load, so your engine will benefit from doing a little work while
you charge up.

That is all true but sailboats on distance races do it all the time
because they need to keep the batteries charged but can not put the
engine in gear.

Mast wiring connectors.
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:45:22 -0700, terry
wrote:

So the extra difficulty and cost of RG8 is
justified; as compared to putting the VHF whip much lower down on the
boat etc. don't think it's major concern.

You don't need the weight and size of RG8 to get good low loss cable
but it does cost more than RG8. I once spent $100+ for a spool of
military grade low loss coax insulated with teflon. It made a
dramatic improvement in VHF radio performance.