Does help help?
 

Our new marina dock is much friendlier than the one last year. It isn't the
people so much as it is that there are people. Last year, we were in the
land of boats that never go out. The boats don't get much more use where we
are now but the people are there nearly every night emptying beer cans,
grilling, and enjoying their bit of waterfront.



Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I can
step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that I can't
bring the stern in.



Tonight, I was coming in with my son and one of his friends standing on each
side of the rail gate. We'd had an exhilarating sail and they were in the
mood to participate and let me talk them through the process. Actually,
there isn't much process at the new slip where current, wind, and prop walk
all align nearly as favorably as they did fiendishly at last year's slip
from hell. I motor in, stop the boat, step off, tie the lines. Why the
neighbors haven't noticed this by now and still insist on rushing over to
crack the gelcoat around my stanchion bases is just one of life's mysteries.



Anyway, there was one of the BFF's "Big Friendly Fellows", walking quickly
towards our slip. "Thanks,", I called, "We're all set." He stopped and
turned back. I turned my attention back towards the side of the boat. I
like to stop three inches off and it was a little hard to judge with two
large teenagers in the way. When I was about to put the boat in reverse and
looked up, there was the BFF standing right by the bow cleat. I knew the
boys were going to defer to him and flub my instructions so I said again,
"THANKS, We're all set. I want to talk them through it."



The boat stopped but he didn't. He grabbed the bow line as the boys stepped
off. I said again, "THANKS VERY MUCH. WE'VE GOT IT!"



He dropped the bow line in the water and went stalking off. I realized he
was angry. He shouted back over his shoulder as he left, "That's the way we
do things here. We're a friendly bunch and we help each other out." Well,
some days you just can't help being an asshole, (me, I mean). I guess he
won't be helping me again.



By this time of course, the boys, distracted by the exchange, had completely
lost track of the program. I grabbed the last foot of dockline just before
the bow swung into the next boat. Things were happening too quickly now to
get the boys engaged so they just ended up standing around watching me tie
up, again.



I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of the
books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?" Good
question.



(Boy Rosalie, does that story about your fandango when the helper cast off
the line prematurely ever resonate.)



--

Roger Long

Does help help?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Our new marina dock is much friendlier than the one last year. It
isn't the people so much as it is that there are people. Last year,
we were in the land of boats that never go out. The boats don't get
much more use where we are now but the people are there nearly every
night emptying beer cans, grilling, and enjoying their bit of
waterfront.



Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large
friendly fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top
of the lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough
that I can step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so
tight that I can't bring the stern in.



Tonight, I was coming in with my son and one of his friends standing
on each side of the rail gate. We'd had an exhilarating sail and they
were in the mood to participate and let me talk them through the
process. Actually, there isn't much process at the new slip where
current, wind, and prop walk all align nearly as favorably as they did
fiendishly at last year's slip from hell. I motor in, stop the boat,
step off, tie the lines. Why the neighbors haven't noticed this by
now and still insist on rushing over to crack the gelcoat around my
stanchion bases is just one of life's mysteries.



Anyway, there was one of the BFF's "Big Friendly Fellows", walking
quickly towards our slip. "Thanks,", I called, "We're all set." He
stopped and turned back. I turned my attention back towards the side
of the boat. I like to stop three inches off and it was a little hard
to judge with two large teenagers in the way. When I was about to put
the boat in reverse and looked up, there was the BFF standing right by
the bow cleat. I knew the boys were going to defer to him and flub
my instructions so I said again, "THANKS, We're all set. I want to
talk them through it."



The boat stopped but he didn't. He grabbed the bow line as the boys
stepped off. I said again, "THANKS VERY MUCH. WE'VE GOT IT!"



He dropped the bow line in the water and went stalking off. I
realized he was angry. He shouted back over his shoulder as he left,
"That's the way we do things here. We're a friendly bunch and we help
each other out." Well, some days you just can't help being an
asshole, (me, I mean). I guess he won't be helping me again.



By this time of course, the boys, distracted by the exchange, had
completely lost track of the program. I grabbed the last foot of
dockline just before the bow swung into the next boat. Things were
happening too quickly now to get the boys engaged so they just ended
up standing around watching me tie up, again.



I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of
the books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?"
Good question.


Good story.

It enumerates more of the 'sailing by committee" syndrome. Like the guy
said, "That's the way we do it around here." What horrifies me is people
like that actually believe it "takes a village." Worse yet is their
sensibilities are offended if you reject their village.

The bottom line is they are inept and they feel threatened by those who
display competence. In their way of thinking everybody should be happy
needing help from everybody else. It's to their advantage to view the
world that way since THEY can't get along without help from others.
Rather than change for the better they hope everybody else changes for
the worse.

Wilbur Hubbard

Does help help?
 

"Roger Long" wrote:

Our new marina dock is much friendlier than the one last year. It isn't the
people so much as it is that there are people. Last year, we were in the
land of boats that never go out. The boats don't get much more use where we
are now but the people are there nearly every night emptying beer cans,
grilling, and enjoying their bit of waterfront.



Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I can
step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that I can't
bring the stern in.



Tonight, I was coming in with my son and one of his friends standing on each
side of the rail gate. We'd had an exhilarating sail and they were in the
mood to participate and let me talk them through the process. Actually,
there isn't much process at the new slip where current, wind, and prop walk
all align nearly as favorably as they did fiendishly at last year's slip
from hell. I motor in, stop the boat, step off, tie the lines. Why the
neighbors haven't noticed this by now and still insist on rushing over to
crack the gelcoat around my stanchion bases is just one of life's mysteries.



Anyway, there was one of the BFF's "Big Friendly Fellows", walking quickly
towards our slip. "Thanks,", I called, "We're all set." He stopped and
turned back. I turned my attention back towards the side of the boat. I
like to stop three inches off and it was a little hard to judge with two
large teenagers in the way. When I was about to put the boat in reverse and
looked up, there was the BFF standing right by the bow cleat. I knew the
boys were going to defer to him and flub my instructions so I said again,
"THANKS, We're all set. I want to talk them through it."



The boat stopped but he didn't. He grabbed the bow line as the boys stepped
off. I said again, "THANKS VERY MUCH. WE'VE GOT IT!"

He dropped the bow line in the water and went stalking off. I realized he
was angry. He shouted back over his shoulder as he left, "That's the way we
do things here. We're a friendly bunch and we help each other out." Well,
some days you just can't help being an asshole, (me, I mean). I guess he
won't be helping me again.

I've had to insist that Bob explain to me exactly what he wants me to
do so that we are both on the same page. Because him yelling at me
halfway through doesn't work.

When someone 'helps' us, I try to bring them into the process by
telling them what we intend to do - many times by asking them to do
something specific for me. Sometimes I tell the person that Bob wants
me to do what he says for me to do (blaming it on him if I don't want
to take a line or whatever the helping person thinks I should do to
help him to help me).

If I know what he wants to accomplish and how he wants it done, I can
sometimes help when it doesn't play out exactly like he thought it
would by doing something that he hasn't told me to do. If we are
backing out, and I see that the bow is swinging the wrong way, and I
am on the bow with a boat hook (which I usually am), I can hook the
boathook on a piling and steady it up so that the stern goes where he
intended it to. He often doesn't realize what I've done or that I've
done anything because his attention is focused on the stern.

At least once, however, I've gotten the boathook hooked on something
and couldn't get it free -- lost the boathook. He didn't like that.
It was his favorite boathook.


By this time of course, the boys, distracted by the exchange, had completely
lost track of the program. I grabbed the last foot of dockline just before
the bow swung into the next boat. Things were happening too quickly now to
get the boys engaged so they just ended up standing around watching me tie
up, again.



I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of the
books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?" Good
question.

(Boy Rosalie, does that story about your fandango when the helper cast off
the line prematurely ever resonate.)

I've got one worse than that. We were casting off from the dock in
Nassau, and the dock helper person threw the line at me when I wasn't
expecting it, and it hit me in my nose and knocked my glasses off into
the harbor. I'm not quite blind without them, but I couldn't see
where they went. And I had to yell at Bob a couple of times to get
his attention so he would stop casting off from the stern.

We tied back up, and when the current stopped ripping through the
slip, the water became clear. I got my back-up glasses so I could
see. The glasses at the bottom of the harbor had automatic darkening
lenses, and the water was clear enough that the sun had darkened them
through 10 feet of water and we could see where they were. Bob went
up and got a long net from the swimming pool and fished them out.

Does help help?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Our new marina dock is much friendlier than the one last year. It isn't
the people so much as it is that there are people. Last year, we were in
the land of boats that never go out. The boats don't get much more use
where we are now but the people are there nearly every night emptying beer
cans, grilling, and enjoying their bit of waterfront.



Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I can
step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that I can't
bring the stern in.



Tonight, I was coming in with my son and one of his friends standing on
each side of the rail gate. We'd had an exhilarating sail and they were
in the mood to participate and let me talk them through the process.
Actually, there isn't much process at the new slip where current, wind,
and prop walk all align nearly as favorably as they did fiendishly at last
year's slip from hell. I motor in, stop the boat, step off, tie the
lines. Why the neighbors haven't noticed this by now and still insist on
rushing over to crack the gelcoat around my stanchion bases is just one of
life's mysteries.



Anyway, there was one of the BFF's "Big Friendly Fellows", walking quickly
towards our slip. "Thanks,", I called, "We're all set." He stopped and
turned back. I turned my attention back towards the side of the boat. I
like to stop three inches off and it was a little hard to judge with two
large teenagers in the way. When I was about to put the boat in reverse
and looked up, there was the BFF standing right by the bow cleat. I knew
the boys were going to defer to him and flub my instructions so I said
again, "THANKS, We're all set. I want to talk them through it."



The boat stopped but he didn't. He grabbed the bow line as the boys
stepped off. I said again, "THANKS VERY MUCH. WE'VE GOT IT!"



He dropped the bow line in the water and went stalking off. I realized he
was angry. He shouted back over his shoulder as he left, "That's the way
we do things here. We're a friendly bunch and we help each other out."
Well, some days you just can't help being an asshole, (me, I mean). I
guess he won't be helping me again.



By this time of course, the boys, distracted by the exchange, had
completely lost track of the program. I grabbed the last foot of dockline
just before the bow swung into the next boat. Things were happening too
quickly now to get the boys engaged so they just ended up standing around
watching me tie up, again.



I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of the
books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?" Good
question.



Sometimes you just can't not get help. We run into this a lot when I'm
returning to the dock with students. I usually sing out that they're
students and I need them to learn, but every once in a while, someone just
has to help. Mostly, I'm able to dissuade my students from giving the person
on the dock a line. I usually warn them in advance not to accept help and to
tell the person offering it that it was my decision.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Does help help?
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in
:

Sometimes you just can't not get help.

You don't have to worry about it on our dock. Just come in 30 minutes
after the sun is under the yardarm and they're working on their 3rd or
4th single malt Scotch or Bloody Mary. Oh, they'll stagger off to watch,
and may chortle a bit if you screw up, but they're quite harmless.

"We're over on (party boat of the day here).", they'll tell you. "Come
on over after you've finished up." This means, just like getting to the
yacht club to find out your position and score after a race, you'll need
to drop by to get your landing score that's been decided in the half hour
after their retreat. I got a 9.1 out of them.....ONCE. They're a tough
bunch to get a good score out of. Anything over 5.5 is considered
excellent. Scores go up if you land it in a ripping tide.

Oh, if you're gone a while and come back to J Dock and find a couple of
brand new, first class docklines neatly tied to your boat, all coiled up
on the dock, just tell anyone to thank whoever did it. Everyone knows
who gave you two new docklines because he didn't like the chafed ones on
HIS dock, but noone will tell you who it was, anyway. The thanks will
get back to the right person.....

No boats sink with so many people looking after them......24/7/365.

You'll also find notes stuck to your hatch like:
"Your A/C outlet was only dribbling so we cleaned your strainer Friday."
Of course, this assumes you've left it unlocked so any electromechanical
problems can be taken care of when you were gone. Noone locks their
boats, just their liquor locker. Most don't lock that, either. You come
in and notice a quart of vodka is missing. Next weekend you come in and
find 3 quarts of vodka stowed back, creating a surplus in case anyone
else runs out of vodka in a "dock party emergency". I've found things
stowed I didn't even remember ever seeing before! Someone left 4 pints
of Boddington's English Ale in the fridge. Cap'n drinks Newcastle, so I
got hooked on Boddington's. That was 3 years ago! No telling where it
came from. I actually think if you left the boat for 2 months, you'd
come back and find the cabin stuffed with various chips and snacks. "Did
you bring these?", someone will ask me. "Nope. Never seen that kind,
before. Too expensive for me." The whole dock overflows with gourmet
foods from many "sources".

We'll just have to have another oyster roast or crab cookout next
Saturday night to get rid of some of this. (Any excuse for a massive
cookout will do. I bet there's every kind of massive crab cooker ever
invented stowed around there, somewhere.) We'll stop by the seafood
place and pick up 100# of oysters and some crabs Saturday at noon.
Donations cheerfully accepted. We got a dockbox full of gloves and
oyster knives, already.

Larry
--
Take your marina dockhands sailing.....

Does help help?
 

My opinion is that you should have accepted the help but worked around it...
not relying totally on mr friendly.

Now.? It looks like you have enemies. This could be very bad at a marina
where there is lots of drinking going on..{ you mentioned the drinking }

If next time you come down to your boat and the deck is covered in puke?


Or dead fish?



Oh Ohhhhh...


==========
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Our new marina dock is much friendlier than the one last year. It isn't
the people so much as it is that there are people. Last year, we were in
the land of boats that never go out. The boats don't get much more use
where we are now but the people are there nearly every night emptying beer
cans, grilling, and enjoying their bit of waterfront.



Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I can
step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that I can't
bring the stern in.



Tonight, I was coming in with my son and one of his friends standing on
each side of the rail gate. We'd had an exhilarating sail and they were
in the mood to participate and let me talk them through the process.
Actually, there isn't much process at the new slip where current, wind,
and prop walk all align nearly as favorably as they did fiendishly at last
year's slip from hell. I motor in, stop the boat, step off, tie the
lines. Why the neighbors haven't noticed this by now and still insist on
rushing over to crack the gelcoat around my stanchion bases is just one of
life's mysteries.



Anyway, there was one of the BFF's "Big Friendly Fellows", walking quickly
towards our slip. "Thanks,", I called, "We're all set." He stopped and
turned back. I turned my attention back towards the side of the boat. I
like to stop three inches off and it was a little hard to judge with two
large teenagers in the way. When I was about to put the boat in reverse
and looked up, there was the BFF standing right by the bow cleat. I knew
the boys were going to defer to him and flub my instructions so I said
again, "THANKS, We're all set. I want to talk them through it."



The boat stopped but he didn't. He grabbed the bow line as the boys
stepped off. I said again, "THANKS VERY MUCH. WE'VE GOT IT!"



He dropped the bow line in the water and went stalking off. I realized he
was angry. He shouted back over his shoulder as he left, "That's the way
we do things here. We're a friendly bunch and we help each other out."
Well, some days you just can't help being an asshole, (me, I mean). I
guess he won't be helping me again.



By this time of course, the boys, distracted by the exchange, had
completely lost track of the program. I grabbed the last foot of dockline
just before the bow swung into the next boat. Things were happening too
quickly now to get the boys engaged so they just ended up standing around
watching me tie up, again.



I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of the
books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?" Good
question.



(Boy Rosalie, does that story about your fandango when the helper cast off
the line prematurely ever resonate.)



--

Roger Long

Does help help?
 

On Aug 13, 12:57 am, Larry wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote :

Sometimes you just can't not get help.

You don't have to worry about it on our dock. Just come in 30 minutes
after the sun is under the yardarm and they're working on their 3rd or
4th single malt Scotch or Bloody Mary. Oh, they'll stagger off to watch,
and may chortle a bit if you screw up, but they're quite harmless.

"We're over on (party boat of the day here).", they'll tell you. "Come
on over after you've finished up." This means, just like getting to the
yacht club to find out your position and score after a race, you'll need
to drop by to get your landing score that's been decided in the half hour
after their retreat. I got a 9.1 out of them.....ONCE. They're a tough
bunch to get a good score out of. Anything over 5.5 is considered
excellent. Scores go up if you land it in a ripping tide.

Oh, if you're gone a while and come back to J Dock and find a couple of
brand new, first class docklines neatly tied to your boat, all coiled up
on the dock, just tell anyone to thank whoever did it. Everyone knows
who gave you two new docklines because he didn't like the chafed ones on
HIS dock, but noone will tell you who it was, anyway. The thanks will
get back to the right person.....

No boats sink with so many people looking after them......24/7/365.

You'll also find notes stuck to your hatch like:
"Your A/C outlet was only dribbling so we cleaned your strainer Friday."
Of course, this assumes you've left it unlocked so any electromechanical
problems can be taken care of when you were gone. Noone locks their
boats, just their liquor locker. Most don't lock that, either. You come
in and notice a quart of vodka is missing. Next weekend you come in and
find 3 quarts of vodka stowed back, creating a surplus in case anyone
else runs out of vodka in a "dock party emergency". I've found things
stowed I didn't even remember ever seeing before! Someone left 4 pints
of Boddington's English Ale in the fridge. Cap'n drinks Newcastle, so I
got hooked on Boddington's. That was 3 years ago! No telling where it
came from. I actually think if you left the boat for 2 months, you'd
come back and find the cabin stuffed with various chips and snacks. "Did
you bring these?", someone will ask me. "Nope. Never seen that kind,
before. Too expensive for me." The whole dock overflows with gourmet
foods from many "sources".

We'll just have to have another oyster roast or crab cookout next
Saturday night to get rid of some of this. (Any excuse for a massive
cookout will do. I bet there's every kind of massive crab cooker ever
invented stowed around there, somewhere.) We'll stop by the seafood
place and pick up 100# of oysters and some crabs Saturday at noon.
Donations cheerfully accepted. We got a dockbox full of gloves and
oyster knives, already.

Larry
--
Take your marina dockhands sailing.....

Damn Larry...sounds like a nice place..where are you?

But the oysters might be a bit watery and weak this time of year
right?

Joe
Have the worlds best oyster knife... will travel

Does help help?
 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:06:01 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:


I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of the
books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?" Good
question.



(Boy Rosalie, does that story about your fandango when the helper cast off
the line prematurely ever resonate.)

who was it, h. g. wells, that once said 'why do you hate me...i
haven't done anything for you...?'

Does help help?
 

One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A HINT!,
for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be branded as
an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he couldn't let it
go after three polite brush offs. At that level of communication, how is he
going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the lifeline
stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet earlier in the
slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major parts of the
interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for this abuse but
I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

On Aug 13, 9:07 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A HINT!,
for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be branded as
an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he couldn't let it
go after three polite brush offs. At that level of communication, how is he
going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the lifeline
stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet earlier in the
slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major parts of the
interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for this abuse but
I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long

I have to agree with others Roger, you hurt the fellows feelings and
he's going to make sure everyone on the dock knows how you dis'ed
him.

The proper thing to do is train your crew to instruct dock helpers
and warn them of things they can do wrong. Send the guy to the stern..
or better yet to the other side to catch the last line your tossing.
Then offer the guy a cold beer and send him on his way. IMO it's
better to have a person on the dock offering help then to not have one
when you really need one. Had he snapped off your weak lifeline
stanchions it might have been a blessing in disquise. Rather have him
rip it off it at the dock, than some big clumsey teen doing it at sea
as he goes over the side.

Joe

Does help help?
 

"Joe" wrote

I have to agree with others Roger.

Well, good thing it isn't a vote. You're all all wet on this one.

Offering to help is wonderful. Forcing it on someone after a polite decline
is obnoxious and unhelpful. Being ****ed off that an offer of help is
declined is juvenile.

The stanchions are not going to rip off but avoiding unnecessary straining
and abuse is imporant to being sure they will hold up when you need them.
Even if they did break, fixing them after they have saved someones life is
one thing; after some gibboni has exercised his ignorance and juvenile
insistance on them is another. They are strong enough to keep a falling
person aboard.

Surely you jest about training young crew to deal with adults who barge into
the process. This isn't a large sail training vessel (something with which
I have a fair amount of experience). It's just me with a couple of sons who
really aren't into it all that much and don't want to be "trained". It was
a rare moment that they wanted to be part of operating a boat they know I
single hand frequently and this fellow's social ineptness squandered the
opportunity.

I can live with a fellow whose feelings are this easily hurt thinking I'm a
jerk.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

On Aug 13, 10:38 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote



I have to agree with others Roger.

Well, good thing it isn't a vote. You're all all wet on this one.

Offering to help is wonderful. Forcing it on someone after a polite decline
is obnoxious and unhelpful.

Yes it is, but why compound the problem with a bad attitude. Perhaps
he mistakenly thought you were about to scratch your gel coat and
wanted to be your hero.

Being ****ed off that an offer of help is
declined is juvenile.

Depends on your tone in declining Roger.

The stanchions are not going to rip off but avoiding unnecessary straining
and abuse is imporant to being sure they will hold up when you need them.
Even if they did break, fixing them after they have saved someones life is
one thing; after some gibboni has exercised his ignorance and juvenile
insistance on them is another. They are strong enough to keep a falling
person aboard.

If you say so Roger.
Most equipment I have aboard that starts with the word "life" has to
be the best maintained equipment aboard my vessel. If I have any
question as to its sea-worthyness I stop everything else and focus on
getting that right. Half assed is not good enough.


Surely you jest about training young crew to deal with adults who barge into
the process.

I'm not joking. You're the Captain and should instruct your crew on
everything you might encounter while docking. I always have a meeting
with new crew and tell each one what I expect them to do when we dock.
Maybe with a better understanding of what to expect your teen boys
might be more into it. If the dockflys get to thick on landing, you
need to make some nice heavy monkey's fist and teach the kids how to
clear the docks with em. You could knock the BFF off the dock and
still be his friend.


This isn't a large sail training vessel (something with which
I have a fair amount of experience). It's just me with a couple of sons who
really aren't into it all that much and don't want to be "trained".

Well I guess a tour in the Navy is out for them. Too bad.

If someones not willing to learn, (not trained like a monkey) I do
not want them aboard.

It was
a rare moment that they wanted to be part of operating a boat they know I
single hand frequently and this fellow's social ineptness squandered the
opportunity.

Sounds like it's going to be rarer then ever now.

I can live with a fellow whose feelings are this easily hurt thinking I'm a
jerk.


Roger that!

Here is a poem for you Roger.

Read it to your boys.

[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!


--Rudyard Kipling

Joe


--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A
HINT!, for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be
branded as an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he
couldn't let it go after three polite brush offs. At that level of
communication, how is he going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the lifeline
stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet earlier in the
slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major parts of the
interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for this abuse but
I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long



He's one guy, not a crowd. Most people judge for themselves, especially
sailors. If they're sailors, and you conduct yourself properly, he will
remain one voice among many.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Does help help?
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A
HINT!, for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be
branded as an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he
couldn't let it go after three polite brush offs. At that level of
communication, how is he going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the lifeline
stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet earlier in the
slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major parts of the
interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for this abuse
but I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long



He's one guy, not a crowd. Most people judge for themselves, especially
sailors. If they're sailors, and you conduct yourself properly, he will
remain one voice among many.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




And drunks being drunks, chances are he won't remember the incident at all
by now. Or will be utterly embarrassed by it.

Does help help?
 

Joe wrote in news:1187012541.969538.271430@
22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:


Joe
Have the worlds best oyster knife... will travel

Hee hee....our kinda boater...(c;

Charleston City Marina, Charleston, SC.
If you got one of those wimpy AC power connectors, be sure to bring the
big adapters. 200A? No problemo...(c;)
Ask Skip how nice it is...and expensive. Skip was paying $100/day on the
Megadock for his 45'...er, ah....46' boat, a wide, floating concrete dock
the big ships tie up to. We're on the other end a half mile from where
he was tied up. It's a big place. Even the big rest room building
floats, here, clean and nicely air conditioned. The 8 shower rooms are
all separate from the heads, as is the laundry. Tired of walking the
docks? Just flag down a dockhand in a golf cart for a free ride.

The seafood place imports crabs when the local market is closed up, so we
always have good crabs and oysters and shrimp, etc.











These *******s keep calling me so I'm feeding them to the spambots.
--
Sunrise Communications
1374 E. Republic Rd.
Springfield, MO 65804
866-483-1228
417-886-7091
http://www.sunrisecommunicationsinc.com/
877-842-3210
866-842-3278
United Healthcare
http://www.unitedhealthcareonline.com/

Does help help?
 

Joe wrote in news:1187015440.449612.100140
@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

Had he snapped off your weak lifeline
stanchions it might have been a blessing in disquise. Rather have him
rip it off it at the dock, than some big clumsey teen doing it at sea
as he goes over the side.


I was thinking the same thing. Move those lifelines way up on the list of
things to get fixed, FIRST.

Retrieving dead kids while trying to think of what you're going to say to a
grieving mother is a great excuse to get them fixed NOW, not later.

Does help help?
 

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A
HINT!, for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be
branded as an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he
couldn't let it go after three polite brush offs. At that level of
communication, how is he going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the
lifeline stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet
earlier in the slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major
parts of the interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for
this abuse but I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long



He's one guy, not a crowd. Most people judge for themselves, especially
sailors. If they're sailors, and you conduct yourself properly, he will
remain one voice among many.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




And drunks being drunks, chances are he won't remember the incident at all
by now. Or will be utterly embarrassed by it.

I'm astonished by how often this is true... at least the former.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Does help help?
 

Capt. JG wrote:

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

"Roger Long" wrote in message
.. .

One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A
HINT!, for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be
branded as an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he
couldn't let it go after three polite brush offs. At that level of
communication, how is he going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the
lifeline stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet
earlier in the slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major
parts of the interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for
this abuse but I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long



He's one guy, not a crowd. Most people judge for themselves, especially
sailors. If they're sailors, and you conduct yourself properly, he will
remain one voice among many.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




And drunks being drunks, chances are he won't remember the incident at all
by now. Or will be utterly embarrassed by it.


I'm astonished by how often this is true... at least the former.




In ddition, I'm astonished by how often people seem to think a boat
won't float without alcohol...

Does help help?
 

"Joe" wrote the following stuff that I replied to
while waiting for a call back from Ms. Manners

Yes it is, but why compound the problem with a bad attitude. Perhaps
he mistakenly thought you were about to scratch your gel coat and
wanted to be your hero.

Depends on your tone in declining Roger.

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to deal with you except in a newsgroup where I
can decide when I feel like a ****ing contest:)

Why would you jump to the bad attitude conclusions? There must have been
dozens of times this summer that I've called out the same thing and the
would be helper has smiled, waved, and gone gratefully back to their beer.
It was the other fellow who was behaving differently this time.

Many on the dock now know I like the satisfaction and practice of doing it
myself. It's part of the enjoyment of single handing. A couple have even
said, "It's fun to watch you do that so smoothly." There was also the windy
day when gratefully accepted the help that prevented me from having to rig a
set of lines to hold the boat off the dock during departure.

Most equipment I have aboard that starts with the word "life" has to
be the best maintained equipment aboard my vessel. If I have any
question as to its sea-worthyness I stop everything else and focus on
getting that right. Half assed is not good enough.

And Larry , who also jumped to the conclusion that the lifelines (wires
replaced this year) must be junk because I don't want people heaving on
them:

Another broad conclusion leap. The stanchions are bolted through 3/4 inch
of fiberglass with aluminum backing plates. One is slightly bent so I know
they'll give before they come out of the deck. Part of maintaining any
safety critical structure with the tough engineering geometry of a lifeline
stanchion is not subjecting it unnecessary strains. I'd like to put larger
backing blocks under them someday, not because I have any worry about their
failing to keep a person aboard, but because I won't have to worry about
dockside helpers and other such things. This is being typed by a designer
of boats, sailboat rigs (up to a 170 foot full rigged ship), and other
marine structures so I slightly resent the implication that I'm sailing
around willing to scatter children and friends randomly across the waters of
the world because I don't understand my stanchion base:)


I'm not joking. You're the Captain and should instruct your crew on
everything you might encounter while docking. I always have a meeting
with new crew and tell each one what I expect (blah blah)

Do you have kids? If I subjected them to a lecture like that before every
short daysail, they would sail with me even less than the do now. Your
comments make sense for a large vessel starting a cruise. The fact is, I
don't need ANY help or participation in handling this boat. Any
participation in things like docking and sail handling is strictly for the
guests enjoyment.

Fun sparring with you but I've got to do something more productive.

Hmm, Ms. Manners never called back. I'll have to send her an email.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

He's one guy, not a crowd. Most people judge for themselves, especially
sailors. If they're sailors, and you conduct yourself properly, he will
remain one voice among many.


I agree with this. In a marina I once stayed in, this liveaboard who
knew EVERYONE in the marina was bad mouthing this one new sailor who
pulled in on his dock. He was one of those liveaboards who was
always around. A beer in one hand and a Marlboro in the
other,,,,always. Anyway most of the sailors knew it for what it was.
I met the guy, turned out to be a super friendly, down to earth guy
not the arrogant asshole that the toad said he was. People judge for
themselves. Of course the power boat crowd believed him but they don't
matter. I don't talk to the powerboat crowd anyway.

Does help help?
 

Roger Long wrote:

I like to stop three inches off and ...
RODLOL - Rolling on Dock Laughing out LOUD

personally I like to stop 2 and 9/16ths off...any more and I'm afraid I'll look like a putz in front
of the cognoscenti...and as Fernando said "It's much better to look good than to feel good".

Does help help?
 

"the_bmac" wrote

personally I like to stop 2 and 9/16ths off...

Are you sure that's wise? That extra 7/16 ths is a vital safety margin and
could be the difference between an impressive landing and a long scratch in
the gel coat. The gel coat is only about 1/16 inch thick, you know.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

Salem police said a case of "boat rage" over the weekend prompted them to
file attempted murder charges against a Danvers, Mass., man who officers
arrested Sunday.

Ronald J. Phillips, 53, of 57 River St., Danvers, was arraigned on a host of
charges in Salem District Court on Monday.
Witnesses said Phillips' pontoon boat twice rammed a black motorboat at the
approach to the ramp of the former Kernwood Marina on the Danvers River and
men on board both crafts got into a fight.

"When he spotted Mr. Silva, the witness accounts are that he screamed, 'I'm
going to kill you.' And at that point, rammed his pontoon boat at Mr.
Silva's (boat)," said Assistant Harbormaster Steve Levesque.

"And then he rammed him, and then he drove the boat up over him," witness
Brenda Watson said. "I thought he was going to kill the guy."

A man in the motorboat, identified as Manny Silva, 45, of 13 Clifton Ave.,
Salem, suffered bite marks and his boat was damaged.

After the scuffle, officials said, Phillips left, taking his pontoon boat
down the Danvers River. He was apprehended by the Beverly harbormaster and
his pontoon boat was taken back to McCabe Marina.

"I am really shocked at this. It is completely blown out of proportion. My
husband and Manny Silva have been friends from many years," Katharine
Phillips said.

In addition to a charge of attempted murder, Phillips was arraigned on two
counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon -- a pontoon boat.

"This is ridiculous to hold him without bail based on the facts you heard
and his record -- when he can clarify the record and they don't have the
intent to show attempted murder," said defense attorney John Morris.

Phillips also faced charges of malicious destruction of property valued at
more than $250; simple assault and battery; operating a motorboat
negligently on a public waterway and failing to report a boat accident to
law enforcement officers.

====

From what I hear, Mr Phillips was mad because Mr Silva wanted to help him
with his mooring/dock lines...

=========





"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Our new marina dock is much friendlier than the one last year. It isn't
the people so much as it is that there are people. Last year, we were in
the land of boats that never go out. The boats don't get much more use
where we are now but the people are there nearly every night emptying beer
cans, grilling, and enjoying their bit of waterfront.



Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I can
step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that I can't
bring the stern in.



Tonight, I was coming in with my son and one of his friends standing on
each side of the rail gate. We'd had an exhilarating sail and they were
in the mood to participate and let me talk them through the process.
Actually, there isn't much process at the new slip where current, wind,
and prop walk all align nearly as favorably as they did fiendishly at last
year's slip from hell. I motor in, stop the boat, step off, tie the
lines. Why the neighbors haven't noticed this by now and still insist on
rushing over to crack the gelcoat around my stanchion bases is just one of
life's mysteries.



Anyway, there was one of the BFF's "Big Friendly Fellows", walking quickly
towards our slip. "Thanks,", I called, "We're all set." He stopped and
turned back. I turned my attention back towards the side of the boat. I
like to stop three inches off and it was a little hard to judge with two
large teenagers in the way. When I was about to put the boat in reverse
and looked up, there was the BFF standing right by the bow cleat. I knew
the boys were going to defer to him and flub my instructions so I said
again, "THANKS, We're all set. I want to talk them through it."



The boat stopped but he didn't. He grabbed the bow line as the boys
stepped off. I said again, "THANKS VERY MUCH. WE'VE GOT IT!"



He dropped the bow line in the water and went stalking off. I realized he
was angry. He shouted back over his shoulder as he left, "That's the way
we do things here. We're a friendly bunch and we help each other out."
Well, some days you just can't help being an asshole, (me, I mean). I
guess he won't be helping me again.



By this time of course, the boys, distracted by the exchange, had
completely lost track of the program. I grabbed the last foot of dockline
just before the bow swung into the next boat. Things were happening too
quickly now to get the boys engaged so they just ended up standing around
watching me tie up, again.



I was a drug counselor in a former lifetime and still remember one of the
books that was in the center. The title was, "Does Help, Help?" Good
question.



(Boy Rosalie, does that story about your fandango when the helper cast off
the line prematurely ever resonate.)



--

Roger Long

Does help help?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...

"the_bmac" wrote

personally I like to stop 2 and 9/16ths off...

Are you sure that's wise? That extra 7/16 ths is a vital safety margin
and could be the difference between an impressive landing and a long
scratch in the gel coat. The gel coat is only about 1/16 inch thick, you
know.

--
Roger Long



I must be lousy at docking. I give myself 3.125 inches off the dock when I
stop with my boat.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Does help help?
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:%17wi.3748$r14.1556@trndny06...
Salem police said a case of "boat rage" over the weekend prompted them to
file attempted murder charges against a Danvers, Mass., man who officers
arrested Sunday.

Ronald J. Phillips, 53, of 57 River St., Danvers, was arraigned on a host
of charges in Salem District Court on Monday.
Witnesses said Phillips' pontoon boat twice rammed a black motorboat at
the approach to the ramp of the former Kernwood Marina on the Danvers
River and men on board both crafts got into a fight.

"When he spotted Mr. Silva, the witness accounts are that he screamed,
'I'm going to kill you.' And at that point, rammed his pontoon boat at Mr.
Silva's (boat)," said Assistant Harbormaster Steve Levesque.

"And then he rammed him, and then he drove the boat up over him," witness
Brenda Watson said. "I thought he was going to kill the guy."

A man in the motorboat, identified as Manny Silva, 45, of 13 Clifton Ave.,
Salem, suffered bite marks and his boat was damaged.

After the scuffle, officials said, Phillips left, taking his pontoon boat
down the Danvers River. He was apprehended by the Beverly harbormaster and
his pontoon boat was taken back to McCabe Marina.

"I am really shocked at this. It is completely blown out of proportion. My
husband and Manny Silva have been friends from many years," Katharine
Phillips said.

In addition to a charge of attempted murder, Phillips was arraigned on two
counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon -- a pontoon boat.

"This is ridiculous to hold him without bail based on the facts you heard
and his record -- when he can clarify the record and they don't have the
intent to show attempted murder," said defense attorney John Morris.

Phillips also faced charges of malicious destruction of property valued at
more than $250; simple assault and battery; operating a motorboat
negligently on a public waterway and failing to report a boat accident to
law enforcement officers.

====

From what I hear, Mr Phillips was mad because Mr Silva wanted to help him
with his mooring/dock lines...

=========


At least he didn't bite the boat.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Does help help?
 

On Aug 13, 4:14 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote the following stuff that I replied to
while waiting for a call back from Ms. Manners

Yes it is, but why compound the problem with a bad attitude. Perhaps
he mistakenly thought you were about to scratch your gel coat and
wanted to be your hero.

Depends on your tone in declining Roger.

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to deal with you except in a newsgroup where I
can decide when I feel like a ****ing contest:)

I'm sorry you see it as a ****ing contest Roger.


Why would you jump to the bad attitude conclusions? There must have been
dozens of times this summer that I've called out the same thing and the
would be helper has smiled, waved, and gone gratefully back to their beer.
It was the other fellow who was behaving differently this time.

Yes, but his intentions were good, and he left with a grudge.



Many on the dock now know I like the satisfaction and practice of doing it
(blah blah blah).

Well seems like one BFF did not know it.


Most equipment I have aboard that starts with the word "life" has to
be the best maintained equipment aboard my vessel. If I have any
question as to its sea-worthyness I stop everything else and focus on
getting that right. Half assed is not good enough.

And Larry , who also jumped to the conclusion that the lifelines (wires
replaced this year) must be junk because I don't want people heaving on
them:

Geeze Roger I could care less if people lean, heave or even jump off
the life rails, after all they have the strengthto keep a man from
being washed over if he's thrown into them. I expect that type of
abuse...but I do have a steel hull and SS hand rails.


Another broad conclusion leap. The stanchions are bolted through 3/4 inch
of fiberglass with aluminum backing plates. One is slightly bent so I know
they'll give before they come out of the deck. Part of maintaining any
safety critical structure with the tough engineering geometry of a lifeline
stanchion is not subjecting it unnecessary strains.

You could wrap it in pillows too...Then surely it will last as long
as designed...huh?



I'd like to put larger
backing blocks under them someday, not because I have any worry about their
failing to keep a person aboard, but because I won't have to worry about
dockside helpers and other such things. This is being typed by a designer
of boats, sailboat rigs (up to a 170 foot full rigged ship), and other
marine structures so I slightly resent the implication that I'm sailing
around willing to scatter children and friends randomly across the waters of
the world because I don't understand my stanchion base:)

Resent it all you want Roger. This is being typed by a USMM who got
his 1600 ton freight and towing masters any oceans at 24 years old. I
have well over 700,000 miles at sea with crews of 2 to 14.

And 170 fter is barely a ship..more of a boat IMO..hel my first boat
over 300 tons was a 220 fter. As a captain who has in times worked for
companies that run crap till it falls apart... I've learned that the
best way to address a weakness is go ahead and destroy it so it has to
be fixed right. If the company or some people have thier way they
would put it off forever....or until someone gets killed or hurt real
bad. I've even dropped a dime to the USCG to report myself.


BTW you are the one who cast doubt into the ability of your lifeline
stancions by having so much grief from a dockflys attempted
assistance. I guess your a lucky fellow..if I had a boat with weak
stancions I'm sure my lovely wife, or some kids would surely find the
fastest way to push them past thier limits.



I'm not joking. You're the Captain and should instruct your crew on
everything you might encounter while docking. I always have a meeting
with new crew and tell each one what I expect (blah blah)

Do you have kids? If I subjected them to a lecture like that before every
short daysail, they would sail with me even less than the do now.

Lecture? Sheeze...... That's a poem Roger . You could read it to them
anytime, better yet just print them a copy. With your engineering
focused mind I'm sure the meaning would be lost in your translation.

That's the problem with you engineer's you have no understanding of
anything you can not put into an equation. If it's not and math
problem, it's a lecture.

I was hoping you would take a hint from the part that says:
" If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too, "

Seems the dock fly who had to butt into your perfect docking
exibition doubted your ability...but you did not make allowances for
his doubting too.

As far as training crew I'd say something like " I'd like you to put
that line on the cleat at the front of the slip stbd side and leave 5
ft of slack and tie it off. Then Ill back down and he can drop his
line on the cleat at the stern as we float in using the boats
wheelwalk to stop and align us pefectly..whtch all the drunks awe in
amazement at our ability to land in style...oh and BTW..If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him.

Your
comments make sense for a large vessel starting a cruise. The fact is, I
don't need ANY help or participation in handling this boat.

It makes since on any boat any size boat to discuss what you expect
people to do when you dock or leave...even if it's sit there and do
not move.

I do not need ANY help docking my boat Roger... single handed and
she's a 42 fter. When I come in alone and people see me they all run
to help..and I do not get upset if they get in the way, **** I almost
expect it. And when I have guest aboard I try to find something for
all of them to do.

Any
participation in things like docking and sail handling is strictly for the
guests enjoyment.

Exactly..and if they know how they can help and be crew they enjoy it
more.


Fun sparring with you but I've got to do something more productive.

Your sparring is quite weak Roger, and I feel I'm fencing in vain,that
you may be set in your ways.

Hmm, Ms. Manners never called back. I'll have to send her an email.

Charlies wife?

Joe

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

Does help help?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:43:25 +0000, Larry wrote:

Charleston City Marina, Charleston, SC.
If you got one of those wimpy AC power connectors, be sure to bring the
big adapters. 200A? No problemo...(c;)

I've been there, absolutely a first class marina. There should be
more like it.

Does help help?
 

On 2007-08-12 21:06:01 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I
can step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that
I can't bring the stern in.

We avoid that by having the dock lines on the dock, properly sized with
a spliced loop: Drop and forget. Main one, of course, is the aft spring
which will keep us off the dock under full power (or a storm's winds).
That one's mine, as when it's made, I can put the bow anywhere I want.
We've been accused of having a bow thruster.

Lets us get in quickly enough that the dockmates can't stumble their
way *to* us in time enough to help ;-)

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Does help help?
 

They found a body floating in the marina early yesterday morning. Maybe
someone else turned down help with their docklines.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

Yes, you have a steel boat. I'm a metal boat designer and I would love to
have one exactly because you can have stanchions and gear as rugged as you
describe. Money makes it a choice between no boat and fiberglass for me
though. Fiberglass is plenty strong enough to be seaworthy but, even if I
do put larger backing blocks under my stanchions someday, I still won't want
people pushing on them routinely.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:
...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Todd Smith

Does help help?
 

wrote

(some common sense)

Finally, some sanity. Thanks, Todd.

I think a trace back through this thread by the uninvolved would show the
common newsgroup dynamic of always jumping to demonstrate the other person
wrong than actual analysis of vessel management issues. Put these things in
other contexts and there wouldn't be much debate.

Say you do accept help from one of the dockside BFF's. You say, "Please put
that spring on the middle cleat." He says, "No, I think you need your
bowline first.", and hauls it in tight mucking up your landing. Helping
means offering to assist and cooperate; not take over. The instruction in
this case (given three times politely) was basically to just stand and
watch. OK, you other guys, tell me where the fine line is.

You offer to help an old lady at the supermarket carry her packages. Maybe
she says, "Yes", gratefully. Maybe she says ,"No thank you dear, I'm quite
capable." You say you insist. Maybe now she relents and is grateful for
the help after having had a chance to assert her independence. Or, after
the third refusal, you reach over and grab her packages. On land, this is
now assault. You could be arrested. On the dock, the "old lady" is not
wrong for expressing surprise that the would be helper is now screaming at
her that she is a bitch? Now make the old lady an attractive girl who
clearly doesn't need the help (boat heading in slowly in calm conditions
with two big strong boys standing at the rail each with a dockline in their
hands) and it gets even weirder. The insistence and yelling, "bitch" part I
mean; not the offering to help.

When a docking does require, or would be easier with, more hands, you can
brief and prepare your crew. It isn't very practical to do that with people
on shore as you are making your landing. You don't know if they have a clue
or how they will react. Ask Rosalie.

Yeah, this has taken much too much time for such a minor event but, as a
writer and observer of human nature, I find these newsgroup exchanges a
fascinating laboratory for attitudes as well as an occasional source of
useful information.

--
Roger Long

Does help help?
 

On Aug 14, 7:51 am, wrote:
On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:

...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

The best outcome would be to approch the BFF after the event and
explain to him that you thank him for his efforts..... but if in the
future you see us on a day like this we would rather do it alone
because.....ect...ect.



Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Sometimes you do not have the option..That part of being a good
captain..expecting hassles and dealing with them before they become an
issue. And the better captain will loose no respect from anyone if he
does it in the proper way.

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Maybe he was a retard...perhaps he made a mistake, and as I said
thought the gel-coat might be damaged. If you become a true master at
handeling your boat, many lubbers will mistake your speed and actions
and want to correct what you know will correct itself. The classic
Capt. Ron landing where you approch the dock at around 30 degrees and
back hard to use wheel walk to float in and stop perfectly is seen as
Captn Ronish (risky) but it's the basic 101 boat handling that most
lubbers will never understand..They might think you are going to hit
the dock and insist on lending a hand.

You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.

Joe



Todd Smith

Does help help?
 

On Aug 14, 5:21 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
They found a body floating in the marina early yesterday morning. Maybe
someone else turned down help with their docklines.

--
Roger Long

Hope it was not the BFF.. After all you were last seen in a conflict
with him. ;0)

Joe

Does help help?
 

On Aug 14, 10:03 am, Joe wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:51 am, wrote:

On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:

...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

The best outcome would be to approch the BFF after the event and
explain to him that you thank him for his efforts..... but if in the
future you see us on a day like this we would rather do it alone
because.....ect...ect.


That would have been the best approach if the BFF had taken the 1st or
maybe 2nd hint and not stormed off.


Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Sometimes you do not have the option..That part of being a good
captain..expecting hassles and dealing with them before they become an
issue. And the better captain will loose no respect from anyone if he
does it in the proper way.

And sometimes dealing with hassles means ****ing people off.

The only way I see heading off this issue would be for Roger to
instruct his sons to leap on to the dock are clear the area with
belaying pins :-) That's a JOKE ! But for my instruction, how would
you head off this situation ?

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Maybe he was a retard...perhaps he made a mistake, and as I said
thought the gel-coat might be damaged. If you become a true master at
handeling your boat, many lubbers will mistake your speed and actions
and want to correct what you know will correct itself. The classic
Capt. Ron landing where you approch the dock at around 30 degrees and
back hard to use wheel walk to float in and stop perfectly is seen as
Captn Ronish (risky) but it's the basic 101 boat handling that most
lubbers will never understand..They might think you are going to hit
the dock and insist on lending a hand.

You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.

I think that the important lesson for the BFF, is that he does not get
to insist.

Todd

Does help help?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
They found a body floating in the marina early yesterday morning. Maybe
someone else turned down help with their docklines.

--
Roger Long



And, you were having lunch with three nuns at the time of death... :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Does help help?
 

Jere Lull wrote:

On 2007-08-12 21:06:01 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I
can step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that
I can't bring the stern in.

We avoid that by having the dock lines on the dock, properly sized with
a spliced loop: Drop and forget. Main one, of course, is the aft spring
which will keep us off the dock under full power (or a storm's winds).
That one's mine, as when it's made, I can put the bow anywhere I want.
We've been accused of having a bow thruster.

Lets us get in quickly enough that the dockmates can't stumble their
way *to* us in time enough to help ;-)

When we are coming into a strange slip, Bob rigs the lines before we
get there. If he knows we are coming into a face dock, he may only
rig them on one side, but most times he does both sides just in case.

[I'm always amazed when I see a boat approach the dock and suddenly
discover that they are going to need lines to tie up with and the
ensuing scramble to find the lines is also amusing. I've even seen a
shrimp boat (that had run out of fuel being pushed into the fuel dock
at Palmer Johnson in Thunderbolt by another shrimp boat) whose hand on
the deck threw the line to the dockmaster without attaching it to his
boat first. He threw the whole line.]

He attaches the lines to the cleats and puts them through the hawse
holes or the fairleads to the outside of the boat and then brings them
up and over the lifelines. That way I can throw a spring line to
someone on the dock, and it will be solidly attached to the boat.

However in our home slip, all the dock lines stay on the dock. There
is no need to throw a line to anyone. We leave them hung on hangers
on the pilings when we leave the slip (fixed dock), or lying on the
dock and I pick them up with the boat hook when we come back in. The
most anyone could do is to throw me a line to catch. He has sewn
chafe guards on the lines where they go through the hawse holes, so I
can then pull them in to the proper length and attach the lines to the
cleats.

We do have to stop the boat way back in the slip so that Bob can get
to the rear dock lines.

In my mind, Bob has too many dock lines, but I'm not going to argue
with him about it because his system works, and if it doesn't, he has
no one to blame but himself.

We have a finger pier on one side (three pilings - one at the end of
the finger pier, one in the middle and one at the end of the slip) and
a full length dock on the other side with a piling at the end and the
middle. He has 4 rear lines (2 spring crossed in the back), and 4
midship spring lines (2 each side), and 4 lines from the bow (2 each
side), and a couple of others in the middle that aren't spring lines.
I think I counted 14 dock lines when we were at the boat last week.

http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasle...fterisabel.jpg

This was a picture of the boat at low tide after hurricane Isabel in
2003. The water is still up about 18 inches (knee level) over the
dock. You can just about see the white edges of the dock through the
water and you can't see the finger pier at all. We had taken the
bimini down, but not the sails. The boat that was next to us had been
hauled. I waded out to the boat to see if everything was OK and took
this picture.

Does help help?
 

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:44:13 -0400, Rosalie B.
wrote:

Jere Lull wrote:

On 2007-08-12 21:06:01 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I
can step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that
I can't bring the stern in.
boat last week.

http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasle...fterisabel.jpg

This was a picture of the boat at low tide after hurricane Isabel in
2003. The water is still up about 18 inches (knee level) over the
dock. You can just about see the white edges of the dock through the
water and you can't see the finger pier at all. We had taken the
bimini down, but not the sails. The boat that was next to us had been
hauled. I waded out to the boat to see if everything was OK and took
this picture.


Nice looking boat. How do you like the behind the mast furling system?
I built a similar system on my boat several years ago and wouldn;t be
without it now. I've got all lines rigged to the cockpit with a
smallish two speed winch to help pull on things when needed.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Does help help?
 

On Aug 14, 9:29 am, wrote:


The only way I see heading off this issue would be for Roger to
instruct his sons to leap on to the dock are clear the area with
belaying pins :-)

I already suggested a well made monkey's fist.

That's a JOKE ! But for my instruction, how would
you head off this situation ?

If in a slip I'd yell to the BFF ..Hey buddie, run around to the
other side please...then ignore him till you tossed the last line to
him. Or a dock I'd yell to the person on the bow to tell him to put it
on the proper cleat...No big deal...if he started pushing on my weak
lifeline stancions i'd yell " Hey do not push on my weak lifeline
stancions" " Thank You". If I had water or beer soda ect.. I'd offer
him one and then explain to him that I prefer no assistance in future
and explain why.

Now if I felt he may be injured or a crew member may be injured then
I'd be stern enough in telling him to keep the f*%k out of the way
that he would have no doubts.


Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Maybe he was a retard...perhaps he made a mistake, and as I said
thought the gel-coat might be damaged. If you become a true master at
handeling your boat, many lubbers will mistake your speed and actions
and want to correct what you know will correct itself. The classic
Capt. Ron landing where you approch the dock at around 30 degrees and
back hard to use wheel walk to float in and stop perfectly is seen as
Captn Ronish (risky) but it's the basic 101 boat handling that most
lubbers will never understand..They might think you are going to hit
the dock and insist on lending a hand.

You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.

I think that the important lesson for the BFF, is that he does not get
to insist.

I agree 100%.....but that's not the way things work most days, so you
just have to go with the flow. And when you a dealing with help
docking it can be a blessing when the BFF is there to help in truly
adverse conditions...why burn bridges?

Joe

Todd- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -