On Aug 13, 9:07 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
One of the most essential aspects of helping is, BEING ABLE TO TAKE A HINT!,
for crying out loud. It seems quite unfair that I'm going to be branded as
an asshole by this fellow and his dockmates just because he couldn't let it
go after three polite brush offs. At that level of communication, how is he
going to be able to help me dock?

And, he tried to stop the boat by pushing hard on the top of the lifeline
stanchion because he thought it should stop a couple feet earlier in the
slip than I did. Someday after I have time to pull major parts of the
interior out, the stanchion bases will be strong enough for this abuse but
I'm not there yet.

--
Roger Long

I have to agree with others Roger, you hurt the fellows feelings and
he's going to make sure everyone on the dock knows how you dis'ed
him.

The proper thing to do is train your crew to instruct dock helpers
and warn them of things they can do wrong. Send the guy to the stern..
or better yet to the other side to catch the last line your tossing.
Then offer the guy a cold beer and send him on his way. IMO it's
better to have a person on the dock offering help then to not have one
when you really need one. Had he snapped off your weak lifeline
stanchions it might have been a blessing in disquise. Rather have him
rip it off it at the dock, than some big clumsey teen doing it at sea
as he goes over the side.

Joe

"Joe" wrote

I have to agree with others Roger.

Well, good thing it isn't a vote. You're all all wet on this one.

Offering to help is wonderful. Forcing it on someone after a polite decline
is obnoxious and unhelpful. Being ****ed off that an offer of help is
declined is juvenile.

The stanchions are not going to rip off but avoiding unnecessary straining
and abuse is imporant to being sure they will hold up when you need them.
Even if they did break, fixing them after they have saved someones life is
one thing; after some gibboni has exercised his ignorance and juvenile
insistance on them is another. They are strong enough to keep a falling
person aboard.

Surely you jest about training young crew to deal with adults who barge into
the process. This isn't a large sail training vessel (something with which
I have a fair amount of experience). It's just me with a couple of sons who
really aren't into it all that much and don't want to be "trained". It was
a rare moment that they wanted to be part of operating a boat they know I
single hand frequently and this fellow's social ineptness squandered the
opportunity.

I can live with a fellow whose feelings are this easily hurt thinking I'm a
jerk.

--
Roger Long

On Aug 13, 10:38 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote



I have to agree with others Roger.

Well, good thing it isn't a vote. You're all all wet on this one.

Offering to help is wonderful. Forcing it on someone after a polite decline
is obnoxious and unhelpful.

Yes it is, but why compound the problem with a bad attitude. Perhaps
he mistakenly thought you were about to scratch your gel coat and
wanted to be your hero.

Being ****ed off that an offer of help is
declined is juvenile.

Depends on your tone in declining Roger.

The stanchions are not going to rip off but avoiding unnecessary straining
and abuse is imporant to being sure they will hold up when you need them.
Even if they did break, fixing them after they have saved someones life is
one thing; after some gibboni has exercised his ignorance and juvenile
insistance on them is another. They are strong enough to keep a falling
person aboard.

If you say so Roger.
Most equipment I have aboard that starts with the word "life" has to
be the best maintained equipment aboard my vessel. If I have any
question as to its sea-worthyness I stop everything else and focus on
getting that right. Half assed is not good enough.


Surely you jest about training young crew to deal with adults who barge into
the process.

I'm not joking. You're the Captain and should instruct your crew on
everything you might encounter while docking. I always have a meeting
with new crew and tell each one what I expect them to do when we dock.
Maybe with a better understanding of what to expect your teen boys
might be more into it. If the dockflys get to thick on landing, you
need to make some nice heavy monkey's fist and teach the kids how to
clear the docks with em. You could knock the BFF off the dock and
still be his friend.


This isn't a large sail training vessel (something with which
I have a fair amount of experience). It's just me with a couple of sons who
really aren't into it all that much and don't want to be "trained".

Well I guess a tour in the Navy is out for them. Too bad.

If someones not willing to learn, (not trained like a monkey) I do
not want them aboard.

It was
a rare moment that they wanted to be part of operating a boat they know I
single hand frequently and this fellow's social ineptness squandered the
opportunity.

Sounds like it's going to be rarer then ever now.

I can live with a fellow whose feelings are this easily hurt thinking I'm a
jerk.


Roger that!

Here is a poem for you Roger.

Read it to your boys.

[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!


--Rudyard Kipling

Joe


--
Roger Long

"Joe" wrote the following stuff that I replied to
while waiting for a call back from Ms. Manners

Yes it is, but why compound the problem with a bad attitude. Perhaps
he mistakenly thought you were about to scratch your gel coat and
wanted to be your hero.

Depends on your tone in declining Roger.

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to deal with you except in a newsgroup where I
can decide when I feel like a ****ing contest

Why would you jump to the bad attitude conclusions? There must have been
dozens of times this summer that I've called out the same thing and the
would be helper has smiled, waved, and gone gratefully back to their beer.
It was the other fellow who was behaving differently this time.

Many on the dock now know I like the satisfaction and practice of doing it
myself. It's part of the enjoyment of single handing. A couple have even
said, "It's fun to watch you do that so smoothly." There was also the windy
day when gratefully accepted the help that prevented me from having to rig a
set of lines to hold the boat off the dock during departure.

Most equipment I have aboard that starts with the word "life" has to
be the best maintained equipment aboard my vessel. If I have any
question as to its sea-worthyness I stop everything else and focus on
getting that right. Half assed is not good enough.

And Larry , who also jumped to the conclusion that the lifelines (wires
replaced this year) must be junk because I don't want people heaving on
them:

Another broad conclusion leap. The stanchions are bolted through 3/4 inch
of fiberglass with aluminum backing plates. One is slightly bent so I know
they'll give before they come out of the deck. Part of maintaining any
safety critical structure with the tough engineering geometry of a lifeline
stanchion is not subjecting it unnecessary strains. I'd like to put larger
backing blocks under them someday, not because I have any worry about their
failing to keep a person aboard, but because I won't have to worry about
dockside helpers and other such things. This is being typed by a designer
of boats, sailboat rigs (up to a 170 foot full rigged ship), and other
marine structures so I slightly resent the implication that I'm sailing
around willing to scatter children and friends randomly across the waters of
the world because I don't understand my stanchion base


I'm not joking. You're the Captain and should instruct your crew on
everything you might encounter while docking. I always have a meeting
with new crew and tell each one what I expect (blah blah)

Do you have kids? If I subjected them to a lecture like that before every
short daysail, they would sail with me even less than the do now. Your
comments make sense for a large vessel starting a cruise. The fact is, I
don't need ANY help or participation in handling this boat. Any
participation in things like docking and sail handling is strictly for the
guests enjoyment.

Fun sparring with you but I've got to do something more productive.

Hmm, Ms. Manners never called back. I'll have to send her an email.

--
Roger Long

On Aug 13, 4:14 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote the following stuff that I replied to
while waiting for a call back from Ms. Manners

Yes it is, but why compound the problem with a bad attitude. Perhaps
he mistakenly thought you were about to scratch your gel coat and
wanted to be your hero.

Depends on your tone in declining Roger.

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to deal with you except in a newsgroup where I
can decide when I feel like a ****ing contest

I'm sorry you see it as a ****ing contest Roger.


Why would you jump to the bad attitude conclusions? There must have been
dozens of times this summer that I've called out the same thing and the
would be helper has smiled, waved, and gone gratefully back to their beer.
It was the other fellow who was behaving differently this time.

Yes, but his intentions were good, and he left with a grudge.



Many on the dock now know I like the satisfaction and practice of doing it
(blah blah blah).

Well seems like one BFF did not know it.


Most equipment I have aboard that starts with the word "life" has to
be the best maintained equipment aboard my vessel. If I have any
question as to its sea-worthyness I stop everything else and focus on
getting that right. Half assed is not good enough.

And Larry , who also jumped to the conclusion that the lifelines (wires
replaced this year) must be junk because I don't want people heaving on
them:

Geeze Roger I could care less if people lean, heave or even jump off
the life rails, after all they have the strengthto keep a man from
being washed over if he's thrown into them. I expect that type of
abuse...but I do have a steel hull and SS hand rails.


Another broad conclusion leap. The stanchions are bolted through 3/4 inch
of fiberglass with aluminum backing plates. One is slightly bent so I know
they'll give before they come out of the deck. Part of maintaining any
safety critical structure with the tough engineering geometry of a lifeline
stanchion is not subjecting it unnecessary strains.

You could wrap it in pillows too...Then surely it will last as long
as designed...huh?



I'd like to put larger
backing blocks under them someday, not because I have any worry about their
failing to keep a person aboard, but because I won't have to worry about
dockside helpers and other such things. This is being typed by a designer
of boats, sailboat rigs (up to a 170 foot full rigged ship), and other
marine structures so I slightly resent the implication that I'm sailing
around willing to scatter children and friends randomly across the waters of
the world because I don't understand my stanchion base

Resent it all you want Roger. This is being typed by a USMM who got
his 1600 ton freight and towing masters any oceans at 24 years old. I
have well over 700,000 miles at sea with crews of 2 to 14.

And 170 fter is barely a ship..more of a boat IMO..hel my first boat
over 300 tons was a 220 fter. As a captain who has in times worked for
companies that run crap till it falls apart... I've learned that the
best way to address a weakness is go ahead and destroy it so it has to
be fixed right. If the company or some people have thier way they
would put it off forever....or until someone gets killed or hurt real
bad. I've even dropped a dime to the USCG to report myself.


BTW you are the one who cast doubt into the ability of your lifeline
stancions by having so much grief from a dockflys attempted
assistance. I guess your a lucky fellow..if I had a boat with weak
stancions I'm sure my lovely wife, or some kids would surely find the
fastest way to push them past thier limits.



I'm not joking. You're the Captain and should instruct your crew on
everything you might encounter while docking. I always have a meeting
with new crew and tell each one what I expect (blah blah)

Do you have kids? If I subjected them to a lecture like that before every
short daysail, they would sail with me even less than the do now.

Lecture? Sheeze...... That's a poem Roger . You could read it to them
anytime, better yet just print them a copy. With your engineering
focused mind I'm sure the meaning would be lost in your translation.

That's the problem with you engineer's you have no understanding of
anything you can not put into an equation. If it's not and math
problem, it's a lecture.

I was hoping you would take a hint from the part that says:
" If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too, "

Seems the dock fly who had to butt into your perfect docking
exibition doubted your ability...but you did not make allowances for
his doubting too.

As far as training crew I'd say something like " I'd like you to put
that line on the cleat at the front of the slip stbd side and leave 5
ft of slack and tie it off. Then Ill back down and he can drop his
line on the cleat at the stern as we float in using the boats
wheelwalk to stop and align us pefectly..whtch all the drunks awe in
amazement at our ability to land in style...oh and BTW..If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him.

Your
comments make sense for a large vessel starting a cruise. The fact is, I
don't need ANY help or participation in handling this boat.

It makes since on any boat any size boat to discuss what you expect
people to do when you dock or leave...even if it's sit there and do
not move.

I do not need ANY help docking my boat Roger... single handed and
she's a 42 fter. When I come in alone and people see me they all run
to help..and I do not get upset if they get in the way, **** I almost
expect it. And when I have guest aboard I try to find something for
all of them to do.

Any
participation in things like docking and sail handling is strictly for the
guests enjoyment.

Exactly..and if they know how they can help and be crew they enjoy it
more.


Fun sparring with you but I've got to do something more productive.

Your sparring is quite weak Roger, and I feel I'm fencing in vain,that
you may be set in your ways.

Hmm, Ms. Manners never called back. I'll have to send her an email.

Charlies wife?

Joe

--
Roger Long

...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:
...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Todd Smith

Yes, you have a steel boat. I'm a metal boat designer and I would love to
have one exactly because you can have stanchions and gear as rugged as you
describe. Money makes it a choice between no boat and fiberglass for me
though. Fiberglass is plenty strong enough to be seaworthy but, even if I
do put larger backing blocks under my stanchions someday, I still won't want
people pushing on them routinely.

--
Roger Long

Joe wrote in news:1187015440.449612.100140
@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

Had he snapped off your weak lifeline
stanchions it might have been a blessing in disquise. Rather have him
rip it off it at the dock, than some big clumsey teen doing it at sea
as he goes over the side.


I was thinking the same thing. Move those lifelines way up on the list of
things to get fixed, FIRST.

Retrieving dead kids while trying to think of what you're going to say to a
grieving mother is a great excuse to get them fixed NOW, not later.