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Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat. Here is my scenario: My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters (pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids, and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed). The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us. Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced, albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety, rules of the water and such. I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better. I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice. Elizabeth |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
Elizabeth, your experience is not at all uncommon. But you have a desire to
learn, and that will carry you through with a proper instructor. You mentioned that your local classes are taught in small boats -- you can and will learn a LOT about sailing in dinghies. You are responsible for everything on the small boats, and have to learn how to steer, trim sails, hoist and dowse sails and trim the boat -- sometimes all at the same time. Learning how to sail dinghies will give you a boatload of confidence in handling larger keel boats. Mostly, though, you need to find an instructor who is competent to teach. Clearly your husband doesn't fit the bill. You might look into the National Women's Sailing Association at www.womensailing.org Karin wrote in message ups.com... I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a 24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat. Here is my scenario: My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters (pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids, and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed). The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us. Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced, albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety, rules of the water and such. I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better. I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice. Elizabeth |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
wrote in message
ups.com... I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a 24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat. Here is my scenario: My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters (pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids, and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed). This is not atypical in family dynamics. I teach sailing (SF area) and I would never attempt to teach someone in my immediate family or even in my immediate circle of friends. Even though I don't yell (a bad idea unless you're trying to be heard), there's too much interpersonal history to overcome. Sailing, especially learning to sail, should be fun and low-stress. This is nearly impossible when being taught by a spouse or close friend. I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as experienced as you claim, then he should know better. The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us. Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced, albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety, rules of the water and such. Books aren't going to do it. You need to take sailing lessons from someone, typically in a school setting. I'm not familiar with your area, but if possible, find a school that specializes in teaching women *by* women. If that's not possible, then make sure the instructor doesn't do what your husband did. There should be no yelling. Instruction should be clear, calm, and thorough. All questions (there are no dumb ones, just dumb answers) should be answered. If for example, a student asks me a question I can't answer, I respond with "I don't know, but I'll find out and get back to you." And, I do! Docking and leaving the dock is one of the more difficult aspects of "sailing." Your instructor should spend an adequate amount of time going over engine and docking techniques, including docking under sail alone (in case the engine dies when you're coming in). I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better. Don't worry... you won't be, but you do need basic instruction, confidence building (which many women, young and old, seem to lack from time to time), and time on the water, the latter of which is the ultimate teacher. I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice. Elizabeth Books are great, but ultimately sailing is what counts. In a cult-classic film call "Captain Ron," the protagonist says, "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen out there," and that's absolutely true. Take a look at some of USSailing's books, e.g., Basic Keelboat, or one of ASA's books, e.g., Sailing Fundamentals. We use both of them in our programs out here. They give good, basic explanations of most everything you need to know about, but again, the most important thing is to find a good instructor (and if you find a lousy one, dump him or her) and get out on the water. I hope this helps.... Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
This is an all too common story. I'm afraid that I must tell you that what
is going on here has absolutely NOTHING to do with boats or seamanship. You and your daughters could become prime candidates for America's Cup crew positions and things would not improve much. Don't distract yourself from the real issues here by trying to become sailors that meet your husband's standards. This is a 26 foot boat. Your husband should be able to get it in and out of the slip and do everything required to take it anywhere it has any business going with no one else on board. I do it all the time on my 32 footer and others do it with larger boats. Generally, when "captains" are yelling, it is because they don't feel in control. I'm quite sure your husband doesn't feel nearly as competent as you describe him. Even if he does, then the boat has become a venue where he feels it is legitimate for him to berate and belittle you and your daughters. The fact that he is taking such great advantage of that illusion is something that smoother line handling is not going to fix. Boats tend to become stages that magnify and bring to the surface the underlying dynamics. Believe me, I know that from recent experience. You need to get a handle, as a family, why he would treat you and your daughters like this in any situation. This is NOT happening because you are a little inexperienced and clutzy at handling docklines. To the very minimal extent that seamanship has anything to do with this, you are also focusing on the wrong end of the problem. Your husband should go out and sail alone, a lot, until he is so smooth and comfortable handling the boat without help that he can integrate teaching you into the process. A week long intensive course should make you and your daughters sufficiently competent to cruise in this boat if you exercise good judgement and respect the limitations of your experience. You would, at least, be more competent than 85% of the other people out there in 26 foot sailboats. By all means, go out and learn everything you can and become a completely competent sailor. Have your daughters do it with you. Just keep it in your mind that you are doing it for yourselves as one of the most worthwhile and bonding things you could do with the girls and that it has NOTHING to do with changing your husband's behavior. Then go out and go sailing without him. -- Roger Long |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
Elizabeth, Sorry to hear about your "learning" experience so far, and good for you for having the determination to keep going. I would suggest taking the small boat instruction available near you. Small boats handle like big ones, but respond quicker. And since they are 1 person boats, you (and your daughters) learn how to be the captain for real. Once you can sail a small boat the bigger boat will be easy. Docking isn't as hard as it looks, if you take it slow and easy. Learn the basic rules of the road. Don't worry about the complicated ones. If you can take a week long course, do it. Me and my girlfriend did a week a Jworld when I started taking her sailing, it was a very thorough course (http://www.jworldschool.com/). Sail the small boats, then keep at it. Todd |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
There is a yacht charter in Chicago's Bellmont Harbor that also teaches,
possibly in larger boats than your local school Michigan City Sailboat Charter (I think I have the name correct) also give classes in boats up to 39 ft, last time I was there. "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... Elizabeth, your experience is not at all uncommon. But you have a desire to learn, and that will carry you through with a proper instructor. You mentioned that your local classes are taught in small boats -- you can and will learn a LOT about sailing in dinghies. You are responsible for everything on the small boats, and have to learn how to steer, trim sails, hoist and dowse sails and trim the boat -- sometimes all at the same time. Learning how to sail dinghies will give you a boatload of confidence in handling larger keel boats. Mostly, though, you need to find an instructor who is competent to teach. Clearly your husband doesn't fit the bill. You might look into the National Women's Sailing Association at www.womensailing.org Karin wrote in message ups.com... I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a 24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat. Here is my scenario: My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters (pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids, and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed). The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us. Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced, albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety, rules of the water and such. I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better. I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice. Elizabeth |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
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Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
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Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: .... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as experienced as you claim, then he should know better. .... Jonathan This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their competence. In training horses, I know that patience trumps almost any other virtue. It may possibly be similar with instructors? :-) Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
I have nothing to do with this organization. But, they list 4 places in
Illinois and 6 place in Wisconsin that offer lessons. http://www.american-sailing.com/find...ng_school.html |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
... On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: .... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as experienced as you claim, then he should know better. ... Jonathan This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their competence. In training horses, I know that patience trumps almost any other virtue. It may possibly be similar with instructors? :-) Brian Whatcott Altus OK For sure... those who yell or bully usually don't know as much as they claim to know. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
I'm "Tom" and I'm a recovering yeller. I've been soft spoken for 2
decades, six weeks, 3 days, two hours and... Or something like that. Anyway, speaking from experience I can attest that getting your husband to stop shouting will make everyone including him much, much happier. I don't know what will work for him but I remember what worked for me. I moved from the mainland where I had been involved in some serious small boat racing to Hawaii where the racing and crewing were very much more casual than I was used to and I became very frustrated and started yelling at folks without even realizing it. A couple of weeks into the season one of the long term crew took me aside and said "listen, I know you're a good sailor and I'm not but I get yelled at at work and I will not come out sailing if you're going to yell at me, too." I was appalled at my behavior which I really had been incompletely aware of (I thought I was just giving instructions) and I truly have been soft spoken since then. Perhaps your husband isn't aware of just how offensive his behavior is. I'd suggest being very direct about telling him. Leaning to sail is a long term project. A sailing school can give you a nice start on it, but unless you have an unusual aptitude for sailing it will be years before you are competent and it takes a lifetime to get good. Nevertheless, it is easy for learning sailors and more experienced sailors to have a good time together while out sailing. I've sailed very extensively around the Pacific with my girl friend who was a total non-sailor when we stated and is still working the left side of the leaning curve. She is a fantastic partner and knows how to stand watch. I don't ask for anything more. I often take non-sailors out sailing (I just took a couple out this afternoon, in fact) and since they keep on asking to come back I'm guessing they enjoy it. The trick is that the person in charge has to be able to work the boat himself and then allow or perhaps encourage his guests to do the jobs they are competent to do. Requests made to the guests are just that. They should be made in a speaking voice and followed by a question mark. eg. "would you like to hold the tiller while I set the mainsail?" A "no" shouldn't phase the skipper. Or at least that's how it works on my boats and I've enjoyed the results. -- Tom. |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
On 2007-08-01 13:19:23 -0400, "Roger Long" said:
By all means, go out and learn everything you can and become a completely competent sailor. Have your daughters do it with you. Just keep it in your mind that you are doing it for yourselves as one of the most worthwhile and bonding things you could do with the girls and that it has NOTHING to do with changing your husband's behavior. Then go out and go sailing without him. That is great advice. I suspect you and your daughters will have a far better time sailing without your spouse than with him! Ruby |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
Wanted to restate bits of Rogers Long's advice, to highlight my belief he nailed this one right on the head. ======= PART 1 ======= On Aug 1, 1:19 pm, "Roger Long" wrote: This is a 26 foot boat. Your husband should be able to get it in and out of the slip and do everything required to take it anywhere it has any business going with no one else on board. I do it all the time on my 32 footer and others do it with larger boats. Generally, when "captains" are yelling, it is because they don't feel in control. I'm quite sure your husband doesn't feel nearly as competent as you describe him. Even if he does, then the boat has become a venue where he feels it is legitimate for him to berate and belittle you and your daughters. The fact that he is taking such great advantage of that illusion is something that smoother line handling is not going to fix. Your husband should go out and sail alone, a lot, until he is so smooth and comfortable handling the boat without help that he can integrate teaching you into the process. Absolutely Roger !!! - The whole problem here is with him, and Sailing alone is just the right medicine. If he feels he cannot, get him the instructor first, not you!! Perhaps you can talk him into custom instruction for the skill of "single handing" the boat. If he thinks of this as a "new" skill he dosn't have, perhaps the thought that his experience somehow exempts him from the need for a teacher won't occur. Once he can confidently sail this boat alone, he can as roger wrote, "integrate you and your daughters into the process" For me, it only took a single 4 hour on the water lesson from an instructor to learn how to singlehand a 23 foot Sonar that had all the necessary cleats in place to sail the boat that way. There are some single handed sailing web sites that also give useful advise on how to sail alone too. ======= PART 2 ======= A week long intensive course should make you and your daughters sufficiently competent to cruise in this boat if you exercise good judgement and respect the limitations of your experience. You would, at least, be more competent than 85% of the other people out there in 26 foot sailboats. I would add to this, once you take the class, without delay get you and your daughters into a situation where you are taking the boat out yourselves once a week, and even better, get into an informal racing group. An informal racing group , beer can racing we call it, are welcoming to new crew all the time, most can laugh at mistakes rather then feel put crew in the position of feeling they lost a critical race, and really helps cement the class instruction to the inside of your scull. You might also end up with different captain each week, or take turns being the captain yourself. The big benefit of racing, and the purpose it gives to good rather then just ok sail handling, is that you will find yourself anticipating what has to happen next before it does. Once your at that level, you will find it more enjoyable to be with your husband. Imagine if you know what he might ask you to do next, and what around you might prevent you from doing it correct that you should fix ahead of time, becomes much easier to be a crew member. My best crew members figure out what I forgot to ask them to do, and either drop suggestions or just mention that they are doing it. As a captain ... it's much more fun when your crew is covering for your ommisions of commands. It feels less like your giving commands and more like your all working together to get the boat moving. Best Wishes for succesful Family Sailing ! |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
On 2007-08-01 12:19:16 -0400, said:
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a 24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat. Here is my scenario: snip of pretty standard "Captain Bligh") "Dad" teaching the wife and kids is often a debacle. HE knows what he meant to say, but doesn't know how to get you to know. Dinghy instructions would be *quite* valuable to you individually. I'd rather take a dinghy sailor as crew than someone with the same amount of time in a keel boat. Knowing how to steer the boat and keep the sails pulling is best learned on a small boat, and the skills transfer easily. As far as getting competent at getting in and out of the slip, absolutely nothing beats doing it. See if a dockmate can accompany you without Dad a time or two. Spend the time learning how to go forwards, backwards, sidewards, stopping by something soft in all those directions. Heck, motor over to some place to go swimming and relaxing between drills. Toss the anchor and raise and lower the sails a bunch of times. Make your mistakes with a disinterested person, not necessarily a formal instructor (though many will give you lessons on your own boat). I have sorta the opposite problem: Pat's more competent than most bareboaters and I love it when she takes the helm, but compares her skills to my 30 years of racing and cruising and "forgets" how much she knows. To make sure she keeps her skills up, I have to "pass out" every once in a while to force her to take the tiller to get us home. Best thing for her (and perhaps you) would be to spend a week or so at the boat with a "crazy" girlfriend to egg her on to taking the boat out while I'm at work. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Need direction - sailing/boat handling instruction
On 2007-08-01 21:33:40 -0400, Brian Whatcott said:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: .... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as experienced as you claim, then he should know better. ... Jonathan This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their competence. I agree with this and the one I can't find now about he should be able to comfortably single-hand the boat if he's competent. We essentially single-hand Xan (below) most of time, the off-helm person is on stand-by in case things go south. Thought: Why not have "Girls" and "Guys" days? Another thought to make docking easier: Tie or splice loops into the dock lines right where they need to be. The dock crew merely drops the line on the cleats, no adjusting. One of those lines should be a spring line from the "inside" outer piling that the helm can drop on a winch. That keeps the bow off of the dock and by turning the tiller or outboard in slow forward gear, the bow can be swung from side to side to ease the dock crew's job. When that one line is on, the boat's safely in the slip. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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