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America's Cup sail design
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All seamless string sails do have seams. Molded sail technology relies on flat mylar in a roll form, they broad seam the mylar for the initial shape. Ain't marketing a great? Yeah, I know a sail maker who worked with a major on the last cup and he claimed that they routinely re-cut "molded" sails but their license with North required that they cover any seams with draft stripes. I guess the marketing boys didn't want to confuse the general public... -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
How many times are you going to say this
wrote in message oups.com... ... All seamless string sails do have seams. Molded sail technology relies on flat mylar in a roll form, they broad seam the mylar for the initial shape. Ain't marketing a great? Yeah, I know a sail maker who worked with a major on the last cup and he claimed that they routinely re-cut "molded" sails but their license with North required that they cover any seams with draft stripes. I guess the marketing boys didn't want to confuse the general public... -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
wrote in message oups.com... ... All seamless string sails do have seams. Molded sail technology relies on flat mylar in a roll form, they broad seam the mylar for the initial shape. Ain't marketing a great? Yeah, I know a sail maker who worked with a major on the last cup and he claimed that they routinely re-cut "molded" sails but their license with North required that they cover any seams with draft stripes. I guess the marketing boys didn't want to confuse the general public... -- Tom. Seems to be working. ;-) |
America's Cup sail design
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Seems to be working. ;-) Sorry about that! I'm not even sure it was worth posting once. I think the multi-post was some kind of server issue. -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
wrote in message oups.com... ... Seems to be working. ;-) Sorry about that! I'm not even sure it was worth posting once. I think the multi-post was some kind of server issue. -- Tom. Ya, I saw a lot of multiple-posts in the past few days. Actually, though, I was referring to the marketing hype of North Sails 3DL process. I had no idea. |
America's Cup sail design
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Ya, I saw a lot of multiple-posts in the past few days. Actually, though, I was referring to the marketing hype of North Sails 3DL process. I had no idea. It may not be all marketing. In the nasty fight over the airframe patent North claimed that their sails were different because the yarns were continuous (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5097784). So they might be worried about infringing on http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4593639 when the sails are re-cut. Be that as it may, North makes very, very good sails and I think you are right about the low stretch making the square tops workable. -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
wrote in message oups.com... ... Ya, I saw a lot of multiple-posts in the past few days. Actually, though, I was referring to the marketing hype of North Sails 3DL process. I had no idea. It may not be all marketing. In the nasty fight over the airframe patent North claimed that their sails were different because the yarns were continuous (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5097784). So they might be worried about infringing on http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4593639 when the sails are re-cut. Be that as it may, North makes very, very good sails and I think you are right about the low stretch making the square tops workable. -- Tom. I have North sails on Escapade, but they're dacron cruising sails. Don't know that I would want the mylar ones if they were given to me. |
America's Cup sail design
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... wrote in message oups.com... ... Ya, I saw a lot of multiple-posts in the past few days. Actually, though, I was referring to the marketing hype of North Sails 3DL process. I had no idea. It may not be all marketing. In the nasty fight over the airframe patent North claimed that their sails were different because the yarns were continuous (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5097784). So they might be worried about infringing on http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4593639 when the sails are re-cut. Be that as it may, North makes very, very good sails and I think you are right about the low stretch making the square tops workable. -- Tom. I have North sails on Escapade, but they're dacron cruising sails. Don't know that I would want the mylar ones if they were given to me. Smart thinking. Dacron sails for cruising is the correct choice all things considered. Nothing looks stupider than a cruising boat with expensive, prone to failure, high maintenance racing sails. The people who attempt to show how cool they are by using hi-tech racing sails on a cruising boat are the same people who put those spinning hubcaps on their KIAs. No class. Fewer brains. Wilbur Hubbard |
America's Cup sail design
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I have North sails on Escapade, but they're dacron cruising sails. Don't know that I would want the mylar ones if they were given to me. Dacron is good. Exposed mylar is bad. For seasonal cruising Dacron would be my first choice on most boats. OTOH, I have gotten very good results from cruising laminates with both Pentax and Spectra. As sails get bigger and the loads and sea time on them go up laminates start to make sense. -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
We use a spectra main and will probably go that route for a new jib. Dacron
is fine for most aplications but as you said it begins to make sense too use laminates as the size goes up. Loads get to high for dacron unless you build them bullet proof. Weight becomes and issue then. wrote in message oups.com... ... I have North sails on Escapade, but they're dacron cruising sails. Don't know that I would want the mylar ones if they were given to me. Dacron is good. Exposed mylar is bad. For seasonal cruising Dacron would be my first choice on most boats. OTOH, I have gotten very good results from cruising laminates with both Pentax and Spectra. As sails get bigger and the loads and sea time on them go up laminates start to make sense. -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
On 2007-05-24 18:25:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said: "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... wrote in message oups.com... ... Ya, I saw a lot of multiple-posts in the past few days. Actually, though, I was referring to the marketing hype of North Sails 3DL process. I had no idea. It may not be all marketing. In the nasty fight over the airframe patent North claimed that their sails were different because the yarns were continuous (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5097784). So they might be worried about infringing on http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4593639 when the sails are re-cut. Be that as it may, North makes very, very good sails and I think you are right about the low stretch making the square tops workable. -- Tom. I have North sails on Escapade, but they're dacron cruising sails. Don't know that I would want the mylar ones if they were given to me. Smart thinking. Dacron sails for cruising is the correct choice all things considered. Nothing looks stupider than a cruising boat with expensive, prone to failure, high maintenance racing sails. The people who attempt to show how cool they are by using hi-tech racing sails on a cruising boat are the same people who put those spinning hubcaps on their KIAs. No class. Fewer brains. Xan (below) is a fast cruiser and she has Dacron and nylon from North at the moment, but SHE would love to have a set of 3DL sails onboard. With good sails, we sail quite a bit more, and get further when we do (BTW, I don't believe the newest sails are mylar now, but carbon fiber and other advanced materials.) Recent advancements seem to be getting near to being better and more durable than Dacron for the long haul. If nothing else, having to put sacrificial material on a Dacron foresail significantly hurts sail shape and performance. Last year, we got a new 110 for higher winds and intentionally skipped the foam/rope luff and sacrificial strip. Last week, we finallly got a chance to use that sail in real-world conditions: small craft advisories for most of the week, and the wind was in our face whenever we moved. The sail made a notable, measurable difference. I can easily see that sails of even more advanced materials will drive boats easier and faster. The problem to date has been durability, but it seems they're getting closer to making sail materials even more durable than Dacron. I have a strong suspicion that the next new sail for Xan will not be Dacron. In other words, I think we're in about the same place sailors were when Dacron was introduced. Many didn't think that exotic material had any place onboard. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
America's Cup sail design
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(BTW, I don't believe the newest sails are mylar now, but carbon fiber and other advanced materials.) ... Most of the "new" engineered sail fabrics still include mylar. It serves much the same function as chopped strand mat in hull construction. That is, it provides a nice smooth gluing surface with omni-directional strength. There are some sail fabrics constructed from low stretch fibers in a more or less traditional way (eg. I've got a couple of jibs made from woven spectra fabric) that don't need mylar but they don't use the fibers as well as laminated fabrics do. I think you are right that the load bearing fiber of choice in the AC this time around is carbon (which is what makes the sails black) but they are still using mylar to keep the carbon in place. Laminated cruising sails typically protect the mylar with dacron or spectra taffetas. My experience with sails made with a dacron/mylar/pentax/ dacron sandwich has been very good. I've got a six year old mainsail that has taken me all over the Pacific that is still holding up very well. I've also got two jibs made from the same stuff that are in very good condition. I actually delayed going to headsail roller furling for two years because I couldn't bear to take them out of service while they looked so good... -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
On 2007-06-17 12:14:49 -0400, Jere Lull said:
In other words, I think we're in about the same place sailors were when Dacron was introduced. Many didn't think that exotic material had any place onboard. Wow! Took 5 months for this one to show up! -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
America's Cup sail design
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty
wrote: lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged ship, i.e., three masts with square sails on all three. A very interesting rig, but very retro and also very fast. I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is that they don't go to windward all that well. Casady |
America's Cup sail design
In article , Richard Casady
wrote: I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is that they don't go to windward all that well. Casady ...... and the best way to tack them is to 'wear' them around a 270 ... NO THANK YOU. |
America's Cup sail design
Rich Hampel wrote:
In article , Richard Casady wrote: I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is that they don't go to windward all that well. Casady ..... and the best way to tack them is to 'wear' them around a 270 ... NO THANK YOU. No, that's Wearing - not Tacking. There is a nice Power Point presentation on the Elissa group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elissa1877/files/ |
America's Cup sail design
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:04 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote: On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty wrote: lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged ship, i.e., three masts with square sails on all three. A very interesting rig, but very retro and also very fast. I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is that they don't go to windward all that well. Casady Quite a lot of interesting information at http://www.eraoftheclipperships.com/ regarding these ships and their histories. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
America's Cup sail design
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America's Cup sail design
On 2007-06-17 14:52:52 -0400, " said:
My experience with sails made with a dacron/mylar/pentax/dacron sandwich has been very good. I've got a six year old mainsail that has taken me all over the Pacific that is still holding up very well. I've also got two jibs made from the same stuff that are in very good condition. I actually delayed going to headsail roller furling for two years because I couldn't bear to take them out of service while they looked so good... That sounds about what I was remembering, and about the time period when I was looking. Thanks for the report. It's the first I've heard from someone actually cruising with them. Every other report to date has been more-or-less advertisement or coastal sailors. Couple of questions for you and anyone else with actual long-distance experience? Do they need that sacrificial strip? Any quirks? How heavy are they compared to Dacron? Xan's a "fast cruiser" who *really* likes high quality (aka "racing") sails that can be properly shaped, but I was leery from the reports of the low durability I'd heard a decade or so ago, delamination and mildew between the plies. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
America's Cup sail design
On 2007-12-04 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty said:
But now that I have your attention: the discussion at the time was about the increasngly four-sided shape of the latest America's Cup sails and how it was possible to keep the top of the sail in line with the bottom. I opined then that it looks like we are going back to the square sail. Oh, gawd, that's so *not* a square sail shape! More like an airplane wing on end -- which they pretty much are. There's about no laminar flow on a square sail. Then, lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged ship, i.e., three masts with square sails on all three. A very interesting rig, but very retro and also very fast. Funny, reminds me more of a junk rig. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
America's Cup sail design
On Dec 4, 5:23 pm, Jere Lull wrote:
On 2007-06-17 14:52:52 -0400, " said: Old threads never die? My experience with sails made with a dacron/mylar/pentax/dacron sandwich has been very good. ... .... Couple of questions for you and anyone else with actual long-distance experience? Do they need that sacrificial strip? If you stow them on the rig they should have a cover. If you take them off and stow them below they don't need one. Any quirks? None come to mind. How heavy are they compared to Dacron? Heavier than Dac race sails intended to last one regatta and about the same as top quality offshore cruising sails in Dacron. Offshore cat sails are built of pretty hefty fabric. For seasonal cruising and racing in "Xan" you might get away with lighter sails. Xan's a "fast cruiser" who *really* likes high quality (aka "racing") sails that can be properly shaped, but I was leery from the reports of the low durability I'd heard a decade or so ago, delamination and mildew between the plies. The cruise lam sails are pretty durable and cuban fiber is said to be indestructible. I haven't had any trouble with mildew in the laminate of the sails. I do have mildew under some sticky back anti-chafe patches. I think 3DL may be more prone to that than laminates made under high pressure. -- Tom. |
America's Cup sail design
On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:23:24 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
, but I was leery from the reports of the low durability I'd heard a decade or so ago, delamination and mildew between the plies. The mildew has to eat, of course. One wonders what it finds for nutrients in a place like that. Casady |
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