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Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
http://www.nbc-2.com/Video/Xtras.sht...eoId=769701845
35 ft cat in route from Isla Mujeres to FL, 175 miles SW of Tampa http://tinyurl.com/2vnm6o |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
Wayne.B wrote in
: 35 ft cat He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING MONOHULL....(c; Larry -- |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote:
He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING MONOHULL....(c; Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet although there is a lot of denial about that. :-) |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
I took a look at the video .. it wasn't even rough water. The skipper is
standing on the underside of the boat. = "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... http://www.nbc-2.com/Video/Xtras.sht...eoId=769701845 35 ft cat in route from Isla Mujeres to FL, 175 miles SW of Tampa http://tinyurl.com/2vnm6o |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Wayne.B wrote, On 4/15/2007 5:25 PM:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote: He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING MONOHULL....(c; Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet although there is a lot of denial about that. :-) I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom? This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit. As for self righting, there are many, many stories of monohulls being dismasted, often with structural damage. This was certainly not the only rescue of the season |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 15, 6:34 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote:
I took a look at the video .. it wasn't even rough water. The skipper is standing on the underside of the boat. Sheeeeze NE sailboat. Ever hear of a willawall? Microbursts? Here in the Gulf we get freight train fronts that will lay you down on your side in a heat beat, and be completly over in 10 min. I'd never have a cat bigger than one I could self right. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On 15 Apr 2007 19:20:17 -0700, "Joe" wrote:
I'd never have a cat bigger than one I could self right. Based on my own limited experience, that sounds about right. I used to have a small Hobie and capsized it several times. Unless you could anticipate the gust coming before it actually hit, it would be over before you could head up or ease the mainsheet. These folks in the Gulf last week at least had the advantage of warm water. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
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Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 15, 7:20�pm, "Joe" wrote:
On Apr 15, 6:34 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote: I took a look at the video .. it wasn't even rough water. *The skipper is standing on the underside of the boat. Sheeeeze NE sailboat. Ever hear of a willawall? Microbursts? Joe Where do you hail from, Joe? Out west we call a sudden onset storm a "williwaw", not a willawall. Words have a way of being used differently around the country. "Willawall" isn't such a bad variation- running into one can be like hitting a wall and I wonder if that's behind your local usage? |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
I'm not happy about people getting into trouble, but it does seem like
vindication for all the opposition I got when I originally brought up this subject months ago. Sherwin D. "Wayne.B" wrote: http://www.nbc-2.com/Video/Xtras.sht...eoId=769701845 35 ft cat in route from Isla Mujeres to FL, 175 miles SW of Tampa http://tinyurl.com/2vnm6o |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 15, 8:10 pm, sherwindu wrote:
I'm not happy about people getting into trouble, but it does seem like vindication for all the opposition I got when I originally brought up this subject months ago. I don't recall that thread. Was it here in RBC? Were people arguing that multihulls don't or can't capsize? I have extensive offshore experience in my catamaran and in many monohulls and am reasonably well tuned into the multihull cruising community and I think that multihulls can be excellent and relatively safe offshore boats. However, there is no doubt that they can be flipped and are not self- righting. -- Tom. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 15, 11:30 pm, "Chuck Gould" wrote:
On Apr 15, 7:20?pm, "Joe" wrote: On Apr 15, 6:34 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote: I took a look at the video .. it wasn't even rough water. ?The skipper is standing on the underside of the boat. Sheeeeze NE sailboat. Ever hear of a willawall? Microbursts? Joe Where do you hail from, Joe? Out west we call a sudden onset storm a "williwaw", not a willawall. Words have a way of being used differently around the country. "Willawall" isn't such a bad variation- running into one can be like hitting a wall and I wonder if that's behind your local usage? I'm just north of Galveston, sail the Gulf of Mexico mostly. Williwaw is a term I've heard from an engineer from Michigan who wroked for me on the supply boats, not a term used here much. I figured it might be a term someone from the NE would understand. Here in the gulf we call them fronts, microburst's and t storms. We were pounded hard last June by a micro storm. http://sports.webshots.com/photo/276...63212926qxyWne Here is looking back at it: http://sports.webshots.com/photo/269...63212926gtlLgt It put the rail underwater, and blew the hatch off the top of my wheelhouse: http://sports.webshots.com/photo/269...63212926AtNrvq Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Jeff" wrote in message ... * Wayne.B wrote, On 4/15/2007 5:25 PM: On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote: He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING MONOHULL....(c; Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet although there is a lot of denial about that. :-) I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom? This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit. I've been telling you for years about how unstable and dangerous cats are for ocean cruising by you refuse to get your head out of your ass and listen to me. You have this ignorant pre-concieved notion that multis are safe and they are not. One hears capsize after capsize if one listens. You don't listen because you don't want to hear. You don't want to believe you have made a stupid choice of boats. You don't want to believe you put yourself and your whole family in danger by your ignorant choice. Here I am tryint to save your live and the lives of your loved ones and your persist in your stupid head in the sand stance. Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 4/16/2007 10:35 AM:
"Jeff" wrote in message .... I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom? This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit. I've been telling you for years about how unstable and dangerous cats are for ocean cruising by you refuse to get your head out of your ass and listen to me. You have this ignorant pre-concieved notion that multis are safe and they are not. One hears capsize after capsize if one listens. You don't listen because you don't want to hear. Actually I've rather obsessively searched for catamaran capsizes for many years. There have been some, but very few. As I've posted a number of times, there have been almost none that are cruising boats over 35 feet, actually being cruised, not delivered. In point of fact, none of the recent incidents fit these criteria. You don't want to believe you have made a stupid choice of boats. That's a ridiculous statement, given that I rarely am more then a few hours away from safe refuge. I've never made any claim that my boat is suitable for an North Atlantic crossing, although sisterships have done it. You don't want to believe you put yourself and your whole family in danger by your ignorant choice. Here I am tryint to save your live and the lives of your loved ones and your persist in your stupid head in the sand stance. Pretty pathetic, Neal. You're just showing your ignorance. You've never actually pointed out a capsize in conditions remotely resembling those that I take my family out in. You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf ofMexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:46:08 -0700, Joe wrote:
I'm just north of Galveston, sail the Gulf of Mexico mostly. Williwaw is a term I've heard from an engineer from Michigan who wroked for me on the supply boats, not a term used here much. I figured it might be a term someone from the NE would understand. Here in the gulf we call them fronts, microburst's and t storms. Different phenomenon. A true williwaw is associated with mountains. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:
Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable, and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to avert a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds, and typically with no harm done. Other than my small Hobie I've never been on a cat when that sort of thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it would go over just about every time. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 16, 11:55 am, thunder wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:46:08 -0700, Joe wrote: I'm just north of Galveston, sail the Gulf of Mexico mostly. Williwaw is a term I've heard from an engineer from Michigan who wroked for me on the supply boats, not a term used here much. I figured it might be a term someone from the NE would understand. Here in the gulf we call them fronts, microburst's and t storms. Different phenomenon. A true williwaw is associated with mountains. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind Got ya, thanks. Also found this Location: Strait of Magellan and Aleutian Islands Williwaw is the name for a sudden violent, cold, katabatic gust of wind descending from a mountainous coast of high latitudes to the sea and are most common n the Strait of Magellan or the Aleutian Islands. The term williwaw is of Native American origin which refers to a strong erratic gust of wind and the effects of a williwaw gust are a constant danger for any vessel trying to sail around Cape Horn: Then there are those famous katabatic winds or "williwaws," which can wreak havoc in short order. If you feel sudden rises in temperature - beware. This is an air parcel coming down from the mountains and is in compression. In its most violent manifestation ( a williwaw) it can dump over high land spilling out onto the water at well over 120 knots whipping up the water into a white frenzy. They are also known as the Alskan winds. However, similar gusts with many local names do occur at many high latitude coasts from Siberia to Patagonia. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Wayne.B wrote, On 4/16/2007 1:09 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote: Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable, and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to avert a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds, and typically with no harm done. Other than my small Hobie I've never been on a cat when that sort of thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it would go over just about every time. My final decision to buy my cat was on a gusty day on the Chesapeake - winds were 15-20, gusting up bit past that. We were beating at about 50 degrees true, slowing catching a Hunter. A gust hit us and the Hunter went rail down, stalling out, but we just accelerated and went by. Then the salesman told me to bear off a bit more, and the speed shot up to 10 knots and I was hooked! There is no doubt that in more extreme situations a catamaran can be at risk. My boat (and several others I know of) are designed such that full sail can generate enough force to tip her over in 45 knots. Of course, carrying full sail in 45 knots is normally a no-no, so the key is to anticipate such situations and not get caught. Personally, I deliberately undersized my sails - stackpack on main, high cut 120 jib instead of the standard 130. I reef early and often, and don't hesitate to run the engine if it seems more prudent. Others take the opposite approach, using a tall rig with a large headsail to optimize performance in lighter air, but my thinking is that this only moves the need for powering a couple of knots of wind lower, and complicates things when it blows up. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:
You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. If so, that puts a different light on it. The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35' I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and weather circumstance of the incident. Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the boat capsized. This site is interesting for those seeking info on catamarans. http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm --Vic ps. If Wilbur is right I might switch my boat-buying plans from the Gemini 105 to the Mac 26M. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Jeff" wrote in message ... * Wayne.B wrote, On 4/16/2007 1:09 PM: On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote: Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable, and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to avert a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds, and typically with no harm done. Other than my small Hobie I've never been on a cat when that sort of thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it would go over just about every time. My final decision to buy my cat was on a gusty day on the Chesapeake - winds were 15-20, gusting up bit past that. We were beating at about 50 degrees true, slowing catching a Hunter. A gust hit us and the Hunter went rail down, stalling out, but we just accelerated and went by. Then the salesman told me to bear off a bit more, and the speed shot up to 10 knots and I was hooked! There is no doubt that in more extreme situations a catamaran can be at risk. My boat (and several others I know of) are designed such that full sail can generate enough force to tip her over in 45 knots. Of course, carrying full sail in 45 knots is normally a no-no, so the key is to anticipate such situations and not get caught. Personally, I deliberately undersized my sails - stackpack on main, high cut 120 jib instead of the standard 130. I reef early and often, and don't hesitate to run the engine if it seems more prudent. Others take the opposite approach, using a tall rig with a large headsail to optimize performance in lighter air, but my thinking is that this only moves the need for powering a couple of knots of wind lower, and complicates things when it blows up. More lame excuses than Carter's got pills! 1) undersized sails to reduce the danger of capsize tells me you realize you sail an unsafe boat. Using the engine more is a necessity with undersized sails unless you enjoy sitting and wallowing in the slop. 2) a boat that capsizes and stays upside-down in a mere 45 knot blow in flat water is probably going to capsize in a thirty knot blow in a six foot sea. You just don't have the benefit of a heavy keel that self-rights a boat if it capsizes and, more importantly, keeps it from capsizing in the first place. 3) You were impressed by a turn of speed, which turn of speed comes at the expense of safety. In my opinion, that's a logical choice only if you single hand and don't value your life or have relatives who depend on you being alive. Any sane, responsible, family man would forego the speed for safety. You selfish lust for a few more knots of speed which is probably no longer in evidence because of how you overloaded your boat might well cause the demise of you and your loved ones. Simply unconscionable, Jeff. Time to grow up and accept your responsibilities. Sell that death trap NOW and buy something safe. May I suggest a nice heavy displacement, safe rugged Westsail 32? One of those survived almost unscathed the Perfect Storm even when left abandoned and washed up on shore days later. Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Jeff" wrote in message ... * Wayne.B wrote, On 4/15/2007 5:25 PM: On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote: He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING MONOHULL....(c; Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet although there is a lot of denial about that. :-) I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom? This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit. As for self righting, there are many, many stories of monohulls being dismasted, often with structural damage. This was certainly not the only rescue of the season You again show you ignorant bias. You seem to think catamaran capsizes and monohull capsizes should happen in equal proportions. And if you hear of more monohull capsizes that bodes well for multihulls. But, you forget that out on the oceans where capsizes mostly occur there are probably 100 monohulls voyaging for every multi-hull voyaging. So, I've heard of a half-dozen multi-hull capsizing in the past year so it would follow, that if there was equal danger of monohulls capsizing, there would have to be 600 tales of monohulls capsizing. See how silly your rationalizing becomes when looked at realistically? Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 16, 2:48 pm, "Joe" wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe I take it back, there are trip preventers, but they are so small I did not notice them in the pictures. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Joe" wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile of crap should be taken out and shot. Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile of crap should be taken out and shot. Wilbur Hubbard I guess you don't get out of the swamp and out to offshore oil rigs. That's the design of the supply boats used around here. http://www.btinternet.com/~derek.mac...vessels01d.htm |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote: You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if proper care was not taken. If so, that puts a different light on it. Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW, "plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat. I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum. The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35' I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and weather circumstance of the incident. Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the boat capsized. Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible. This site is interesting for those seeking info on catamarans. http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm --Vic ps. If Wilbur is right I might switch my boat-buying plans from the Gemini 105 to the Mac 26M. If you're planning Atlantic crossing, neither is appropriate. However, for cruising Maine, the Chesapeake, or the ICW, the Keys, and maybe a hop to the Bahamas, the Gemini would be just fine. You must remember that Neal (aka Wilbur) lives on a 27 foot boat, and while he claims its a "fine blue water passagemaker" he's never actually been out of sight of land for more than a few hours. And frankly since he hasn't shown any new pictures in several years, there's some doubt as to whether it survived last year's storms. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:27 PM:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... .... More lame excuses than Carter's got pills! 1) undersized sails to reduce the danger of capsize tells me you realize you sail an unsafe boat. Using the engine more is a necessity with undersized sails unless you enjoy sitting and wallowing in the slop. No - I wanted the stack pack, and I don't like "deck sweeper" jibs that restricted visibility. I wasn't trying to under size the sails, I just had no reason to oversize them. 2) a boat that capsizes and stays upside-down in a mere 45 knot blow in flat water is probably going to capsize in a thirty knot blow in a six foot sea. You just don't have the benefit of a heavy keel that self-rights a boat if it capsizes and, more importantly, keeps it from capsizing in the first place. Sorry, you don't seem to understand the physics here. In general, it would actually take both a 45 knots gust AND a large wave to capsize a cat. 3) You were impressed by a turn of speed, which turn of speed comes at the expense of safety. In my opinion, that's a logical choice only if you single hand and don't value your life or have relatives who depend on you being alive. Any sane, responsible, family man would forego the speed for safety. You selfish lust for a few more knots of speed which is probably no longer in evidence because of how you overloaded your boat might well cause the demise of you and your loved ones. Simply unconscionable, Jeff. Your comments might be worth some consideration if in fact I was in the habit of making North Atlantic crossings in winter. But you know well that I have never taken my family out on anything longer than a simple overnight crossing, and severe weather does not hit without warning. Time to grow up and accept your responsibilities. You're funny, Neal! You've never taken any responsibility - never married, never had a family, never owned property. You lost your boat so now you hide behind sock puppets. And you lecture about "responsibility." BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Sell that death trap NOW and buy something safe. May I suggest a nice heavy displacement, safe rugged Westsail 32? One of those survived almost unscathed the Perfect Storm even when left abandoned and washed up on shore days later. I have good friends that had a Westsail (and are themselves good friends of the skipper of Satori). They loved the security of the boat. However, the boat was too heavy for them to handle as they got older, and they ended up powering all of the time. And remember, in the infamous "Queen's Birthday" Typhoon several years ago two boats ended up on the bottom - a Westsail that was abandoned (because no one on board could handle the tiller) and another heavy displacement monohull that was lost with all hands. The two multihulls that were abandoned were later salvaged. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile of crap should be taken out and shot. Wilbur Hubbard- - OK Wilbore I'll bite. Below the back deck are two main engine that weighs more than the superstructure, plus 4-6 cement tanks that carry 2000 sacks each, 2-4 liquid mud tanks that carry up to 20,000 gallons, 25,000 gal fuel, 4000, gallons of firefighting foam, ect.ect.ect. The forward structure is built like it is to keep the decks clear for cargo. She is neither top heavy, or forward heavy. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:18:11 GMT, "Don White" said: I guess you don't get out of the swamp and out to offshore oil rigs. Gotta cut Neal a little slack. He's not the brightest bulb on the tree. He blew it there... it's now obvious that all his talk of long distance cruising is no more than bilge water. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:21:28 -0400, Jeff wrote:
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if proper care was not taken. Pitchpoling doesn't require a huge wave according to: http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm " In the ocean with storm conditions you must slow the boat down. If you don’t, the boat will surf faster than the wave system and literally plunge into a wave front, tripping the boat and causing it to flip over-not capsize. In storm waves, a prudent skipper, on cruising cat where safety rather than speed is the priority, will reduce sail and, if necessary, employ a drogue." If so, that puts a different light on it. Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW, "plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat. I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum. I was thinking the boat could have been under too much sail. The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35' I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and weather circumstance of the incident. Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the boat capsized. Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible. Yes. Just don't know. BTW, the cat is a 1995. Mistyped it. http://www.boatinfoworld.com/boat/re...o-colorado.asp The bayacht guy seems to know catamarans well and looks very dimly on fiberglass foredecks, and that may (or may not) have been a factor in this case. --Vic |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 6:07 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:21:28 -0400, Jeff wrote: * Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if proper care was not taken. Pitchpoling doesn't require a huge wave according to: http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm " In the ocean with storm conditions you must slow the boat down. If you don’t, the boat will surf faster than the wave system and literally plunge into a wave front, tripping the boat and causing it to flip over-not capsize. In storm waves, a prudent skipper, on cruising cat where safety rather than speed is the priority, will reduce sail and, if necessary, employ a drogue." I can say from experience that 10 foot waves are generally not enough to create these situations. They are talking about large ocean swells, of the type generated by large storms, with a long fetch. They may have the cause of the capsize in the Pacific NW a few months ago, but likely not the primary cause of this incident. Though I could be wrong. If so, that puts a different light on it. Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW, "plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat. I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum. I was thinking the boat could have been under too much sail. Indeed, that would be my guess. However, unless they had gear failure, it should have been possible to reduce sail. This is why I suspect a more sudden event, perhaps being hit by a squall while no one is at the helm. The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35' I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and weather circumstance of the incident. Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the boat capsized. Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible. Yes. Just don't know. BTW, the cat is a 1995. Mistyped it. http://www.boatinfoworld.com/boat/re...o-colorado.asp The bayacht guy seems to know catamarans well and looks very dimly on fiberglass foredecks, and that may (or may not) have been a factor in this case. I always thought they increased hobby-horsing or pitching. However, there are a number of factors involved, so its not as simple as saying solid deck cats pitch too much. BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls, which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago 35'. Everyone has an agenda. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:50:40 -0400, Jeff wrote:
BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls, which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago 35'. Everyone has an agenda. Yes, it's difficult to cut through agendas. Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside down would be a useful fact. --Vic |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:50:40 -0400, Jeff wrote: BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls, which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago 35'. Everyone has an agenda. Yes, it's difficult to cut through agendas. Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside down would be a useful fact. It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have said. Just google "catamaran rescue". The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans. Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90 degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean voyaging. Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:04 PM:
.... Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside down would be a useful fact. Would it really be useful? Are you looking for a boat to 400 mile passages, with no alternate refuge along the way? I'm not sure how this info would help you decide between a Gemini 105 and a Mac 26M. But I agree, it would be nice to know. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have said. Just google "catamaran rescue". Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40' fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized Uniflite sportfisher. The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans. Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90 degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean voyaging. Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that. Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated. --Vic |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:30:16 -0400, Jeff wrote:
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:04 PM: ... Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside down would be a useful fact. Would it really be useful? Are you looking for a boat to 400 mile passages, with no alternate refuge along the way? I'm not sure how this info would help you decide between a Gemini 105 and a Mac 26M. The Mac 26M was for Neal. But there are real issues to think about when deciding between a mono and multi. Catamarans are expensive. Aside from all other considerations, taking a big financial hit because a boat was totaled instead of knocked down makes a difference. If it's found this capt'n did something stupid that makes a difference. If he had a drogue out and did everything right but flipped that makes a difference. I've seriously considered cats and have so far not shied away from the turtle aspect because I've thought due diligence can prevent that. Squall lines are common and some not so easily detected before they hit, especially at night. If this guy was duly diligent and still flipped, I probably won't consider a cat, and Wilbur is right. If he screwed up, that's a different story. --Vic |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 16, 6:44 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have said. Just google "catamaran rescue". Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40' fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized Uniflite sportfisher. The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans. Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90 degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean voyaging. Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that. Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated. --Vic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I was wondering the same exact thing, a weak link on the sheets. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:44 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have said. Just google "catamaran rescue". Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40' fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized Uniflite sportfisher. It was a very suspicious situation - they claimed the boat was worth $300K, about triple its real value. .... Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that. Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated. My old boat was a Nonsuch. The unstayed mast was flexible, so when a gust hit, the tip flexed off and shed the force. I may be wrong, but I think that some cats are designed with rigging sized to fail before pulling the boat over. (Or maybe that was just a hare-brained scheme I heard here ...) |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:31:49 -0400, Jeff wrote:
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:44 PM: ... Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that. Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated. My old boat was a Nonsuch. The unstayed mast was flexible, so when a gust hit, the tip flexed off and shed the force. I may be wrong, but I think that some cats are designed with rigging sized to fail before pulling the boat over. (Or maybe that was just a hare-brained scheme I heard here ...) You would think that if a urinal can be taught to know when you're ****ing, then a cat can be taught to know when it's flipping. If the sheets are run through a smart gripping device, that device would let loose when a hull leaves the water. Maybe some sort of sensor or float in each hull. The heel idea with a simple mechanical level sensing device might not work because even cats can roll heavily. Anyway, sounds like another maintenance item, and maybe not worth having if it reduces solid seaman-like attention. They say anti-lock brakes just make people tail-gate more. Beats me. --Vic --Vic |
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