Size of seas and size of boat
 

Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

I know there's no firm answer to this, water is unsafe period, and you can
be enjoying the trqnquility of 1 foot swells and have Mr. Whale decide to
knock on your keel to say hello

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of what
size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and more
concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected with?

Thanks,
John


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Size of seas and size of boat
 

"John Reimer" wrote in message
...
Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

I know there's no firm answer to this, water is unsafe period, and you can
be enjoying the trqnquility of 1 foot swells and have Mr. Whale decide to
knock on your keel to say hello

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of what
size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and more
concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected with?

Thanks,
John

If breaking waves are equal in height to the beam of your boat, you are in
danger of capsize. From wave heights at half your beam to full beam, you are
likely to be uncomfortable, and handling your boat will be increasingly
difficult and strenuous. As for vigilance, whatever wave height strikes you
as uncomfortable and unsafe below that point is correct for you. But wave
*shape* and interval has more to do with it, in my opinion, than just
height. Pacific rollers of 6-8 feet can be quite safe and comfortable, while
Green Bay short sharp waves of 5-6 feet are just plain dangerous.

If the conditions seem unsafe to you, they are unsafe for you.

Size of seas and size of boat
 

KLC Lewis wrote:
"John Reimer" wrote in message
...
Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

I know there's no firm answer to this, water is unsafe period, and you can
be enjoying the trqnquility of 1 foot swells and have Mr. Whale decide to
knock on your keel to say hello

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of what
size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and more
concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected with?

Thanks,
John

If breaking waves are equal in height to the beam of your boat, you are in
danger of capsize. From wave heights at half your beam to full beam, you are
likely to be uncomfortable, and handling your boat will be increasingly
difficult and strenuous. As for vigilance, whatever wave height strikes you
as uncomfortable and unsafe below that point is correct for you. But wave
*shape* and interval has more to do with it, in my opinion, than just
height. Pacific rollers of 6-8 feet can be quite safe and comfortable, while
Green Bay short sharp waves of 5-6 feet are just plain dangerous.

I think this is a bit deceptive. "Waves" are almost never encountered in
the open ocean except in shallows. "Swells" are what the sea is filled
with and other than comfort, there is no minimum size of boat making
swells safer. It's the construction and design of the boat that matters,
not size.

Stephen

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 07:37:46 -0700, "John Reimer"
wrote:

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of what
size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and more
concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected with?

Since one of the biggest dangers to any boat is rollover/capsize,
there has been some research with hard numbers in that area. The
consensus seems to be that a breaking wave that has a height of 1/2
the beam (width) of the boat is capable of rolling it.

After that everything gets very subjective. Some boats have published
ratings describing their intended usage, ie, protected water only
(small bays and rivers), inshore (typically waves less than 3 feet),
coastal, off shore, etc. A lot depends on construction and type, not
overall size.

Comfort is even more highly subjective, depending on expectations of
the people involved and the boat. For small planing boats, under 25
to 30 feet, operating at speed, anything over 1 or 2 feet is going to
get uncomfortable very quickly except for very gradual ocean swells.

Size of seas and size of boat
 

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
KLC Lewis wrote:
"John Reimer" wrote in message
...
Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

I know there's no firm answer to this, water is unsafe period, and you
can be enjoying the trqnquility of 1 foot swells and have Mr. Whale
decide to knock on your keel to say hello

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of
what size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and
more concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected
with?

Thanks,
John

If breaking waves are equal in height to the beam of your boat, you are
in danger of capsize. From wave heights at half your beam to full beam,
you are likely to be uncomfortable, and handling your boat will be
increasingly difficult and strenuous. As for vigilance, whatever wave
height strikes you as uncomfortable and unsafe below that point is
correct for you. But wave *shape* and interval has more to do with it, in
my opinion, than just height. Pacific rollers of 6-8 feet can be quite
safe and comfortable, while Green Bay short sharp waves of 5-6 feet are
just plain dangerous.

I think this is a bit deceptive. "Waves" are almost never encountered in
the open ocean except in shallows. "Swells" are what the sea is filled
with and other than comfort, there is no minimum size of boat making
swells safer. It's the construction and design of the boat that matters,
not size.

Stephen

But you are concentrating on the open ocean, while most sailing is done in
coastal waters and lakes. And even on the ocean, you have a combination of
waves and swells. At river mouths, you also have conflicting waves caused by
river current meeting ocean swell and waves. Even in Green Bay, such as is
the case at the Memominee River Channel, the chop caused by the river
flowing out into waves from any eastern-component wind can make for very
messy -- even very dangerous -- conditions.

Size of seas and size of boat
 

John Reimer wrote:
Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

I know there's no firm answer to this, water is unsafe period, and you can
be enjoying the trqnquility of 1 foot swells and have Mr. Whale decide to
knock on your keel to say hello

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of what
size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and more
concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected with?

Thanks,
John


----------

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For a valid email take out the _beer bottles_ before replying but leave the
number. :)

----------

If you forget about your dreams you die.
Live for them, & they will live for you.


A 1000+ foot carrier is safe in any ocean

Size of seas and size of boat
 

....
I think this is a bit deceptive. "Waves" are almost never encountered in
the open ocean except in shallows. "Swells" are what the sea is filled
with ...

That is not correct. While the oceans, unlike smaller bodies of
water, have swells they are also well populated with seas. Those seas
will be breaking in anything over force 8 and in lesser states when
the currents are running against the wind. And, there is also plenty
of current even far offshore.

-- Tom.

Size of seas and size of boat
 

Gogarty wrote:


----------

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For a valid email take out the _beer bottles_ before replying but leave the
number. :)

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If you forget about your dreams you die.
Live for them, & they will live for you.



A 1000+ foot carrier is safe in any ocean


Not when it encounters the occasional rogue 1,000 foot breaking wave.



I'd be more concerned about a rogue 15 foot Exocet...

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:50:02 -0400, krj
wrote:


A 1000+ foot carrier is safe in any ocean

Not in the South China Sea during a typhoon, it's not - also other
seas.

Peter

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 07:37:46 -0700, "John Reimer"
wrote:

Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

I know there's no firm answer to this, water is unsafe period, and you can
be enjoying the trqnquility of 1 foot swells and have Mr. Whale decide to
knock on your keel to say hello

But is there a general traditional guideline or at least in terms of what
size seas vs boat size that starts making YOU uncomfortable and more
concerned beyond the vigilance water should always be respected with?

I am uncomfortable trying to use a tape measure when surfing sideways.

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 08:34:05 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:


I think this is a bit deceptive. "Waves" are almost never encountered in
the open ocean except in shallows. "Swells" are what the sea is filled
with and other than comfort, there is no minimum size of boat making
swells safer. It's the construction and design of the boat that matters,
not size.

Stephen

Sorry Stephen, I must disagree. The bumpy surface of the sea at sea is
a combination of waves caused by the ciurrent wind may continue after
wind has ceased and swell which is evidence of waves and weather from
a distance.

In shallows waves increase in height until they break. That is why
coming into shallows such an anchorage or harbour (especially against
the tide) can be dangerous or uncomfortable.

Agreed that it is the construction and design of the boat that matters
but a not to be discounted factor is the seamanship of the crew. Often
in sailing a course with high seas running and some breaking behind
one, it is better to bear off so that the waves hit on the quarter.
Any breaking surge rolls under the boat - you might surf a bit but if
your sails are more forward, you will not be pushed around to beam on
and a broach. For my boat in conditions where the wind is up and the
seas are building, I drop the main altogether and use the genoa. You
may have to tack either side of the course but there will be little
danger of broaching anmd being rolled. I say "little" because it is
the three big ones in a row that are the problem. The first one pushes
your stern about and you may lose a bit of forward momentum. That's
when it is possible for its friend to throw you around some more.

Size of the boat is not as important as seamanship (obtained by making
mistakes and experience), design and strength of construction in that
order I believe.

I'm not an expert on sailing but this is my experience.
cheers
Peter

Size of seas and size of boat
 

Thanks for the great replies everybody, and KRJ, great idea, but my budget
is LESS than a billion dollars, unfortunately. :(

But that does bring up an interesting question, what's the biggest ship
that's been sent to the bottom by seas? Not icebergs, U-boats, or
collisions, but by good ol' Mother Nature, other than turning the Cape and
meeting up with the rocks, just out on the open blue water. Will have to
look into that...

John

"krj" wrote in message
news:g9TPh.19274$B7.6739@bigfe9...

A 1000+ foot carrier is safe in any ocean

Size of seas and size of boat
 

John Wrote:
"But that does bring up an interesting question, what's the biggest ship
that's been sent to the bottom by seas? Not icebergs, U-boats, or
collisions, but by good ol' Mother Nature, other than turning the Cape
and meeting up with the rocks, just out on the open blue water. Will
have to look into that..."

Sometime during WWII the US Navy ran into a fierce typhoon in the
Pacific that sunk a lot of their ships. Don't know the specifics on
which types though.

Red

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Apr 1, 7:37 am, "John Reimer"
wrote:
Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?


To quote Donald Rumsfeld, "... You go to sea with the boat you have,
not the boat you want...."

So get your ass out there and stop fllip flopping.
Bob

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Apr 2, 12:17 am, "Bob" wrote:
On Apr 1, 7:37 am, "John Reimer"
wrote:

Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

To quote Donald Rumsfeld, "... You go to sea with the boat you have,
not the boat you want...."

So get your ass out there and stop fllip flopping.
Bob

This is a loaded question. A lot depends on how seaworthy the boat is,
and how skilled the captian is. A good captian can get away with a
lot, a good captian on a seaworthy boat can get away with a lot more
(within reason). Their are plenty of larger boats that are just not
very seaworthy, and plenty of small boats that are very seaworthy for
their size.

John

Size of seas and size of boat
 

In article ,
"John Reimer" wrote:

Thanks for the great replies everybody, and KRJ, great idea, but my budget
is LESS than a billion dollars, unfortunately. :(

But that does bring up an interesting question, what's the biggest ship
that's been sent to the bottom by seas? Not icebergs, U-boats, or
collisions, but by good ol' Mother Nature, other than turning the Cape and
meeting up with the rocks, just out on the open blue water. Will have to
look into that...


'Derbyshire' ?

Molesworth

Size of seas and size of boat
 

But that does bring up an interesting question, what's the biggest ship
that's been sent to the bottom by seas? Not icebergs, U-boats, or
collisions, but by good ol' Mother Nature, other than turning the Cape and
meeting up with the rocks, just out on the open blue water. Will have to
look into that...

This typhoon and it's effect is interesting, but no ships as big as
"Derbyshire".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halsey%27s_Typhoon

Size of seas and size of boat
 

It is not the size of the boat but the skill of the sailor.

Cap'n Ric

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On 2007-04-01 10:37:46 -0400, "John Reimer"
said:

Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

Not really, if you're only considering wave size. I've been in 6-8'
waves over 8' swells and it was a fun romp. I've also encountered 3'
waves that convinced me to slink back into the anchorage, tail between
my legs.

What are the other conditions, depth of water, winds? Are you sailing,
motoring, hove to, on a sea anchor or anchored to the bottom?

I expect you're thinking about a storm at sea. While any storm makes me
uncomfortable --I hate to spill drinks-- and I do everything in my
power to stay away from them, I'd wouldn't be unduly alarmed to find
myself in one if I were well away from any shore, was on a series
drogue sea anchor, and had time to strip the exterior and unship our
rudder and put it below.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Size of seas and size of boat
 

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2007040223482216807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2007-04-01 10:37:46 -0400, "John Reimer"
said:

Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

[...] I expect you're thinking about a storm at sea. While any storm makes
me uncomfortable --I hate to spill drinks-- and I do everything in my
power to stay away from them, I'd wouldn't be unduly alarmed to find
myself in one if I were well away from any shore, was on a series drogue
sea anchor, and had time to strip the exterior and unship our rudder and
put it below.

Unship your rudder?

-Paul

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On 2007-04-04 12:13:02 -0400, "Paul" said:

[...] I expect you're thinking about a storm at sea. While any storm makes
me uncomfortable --I hate to spill drinks-- and I do everything in my
power to stay away from them, I'd wouldn't be unduly alarmed to find
myself in one if I were well away from any shore, was on a series drogue
sea anchor, and had time to strip the exterior and unship our rudder and
put it below.

Unship your rudder?

I wondered if anyone would notice that.

One of the advantages of our transom-hung rudder is that I can take it
off and eliminate damage caused by drifting backwards in high sease. I
also can, and do, inspect the fittings regularly. There is a good pic
of our rudder on Xan's exterior pics page.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Apr 1, 7:37 am, "John Reimer"
wrote:
Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?


Just got my May issue of National Fisherman. Go to page 16 and read
BOAT OF THE MONTH.

There is a 20' x 8' x 3' Pacific City "Oregon Dory". The guy built it
in 1975 and has fished salmon, halibut and tuna since. Now that may
not seem to interesting til ya think this is launched on the beach
then bust through the surf, and then maybe spend a night or two out
cause the surf is too bad to come in. Oh, not sure if you know about
ALbacore tuna.................... they typically range from 50-100+
miles off shore. Some years they get in closer.

NOw this is done in a flat bottom open dory considered by most "modern
yachatsmen" as a good "row boat." But in Oregon this boat fishes in
conditions twice what overwhelmed Skip and Lydia.
So how big a boat do you need?!?!?
Bob




Now can you read betwen the lines here? How big a boat do you need?
Bob

Size of seas and size of boat
 

On Apr 9, 10:08 am, "Bob" wrote:
On Apr 1, 7:37 am, "John Reimer"
wrote:

Is there a general rule of thumb on what size of seas become inherently
unsafe for a particular size of boat?

Just got my May issue of National Fisherman. Go to page 16 and read
BOAT OF THE MONTH.

There is a 20' x 8' x 3' Pacific City "Oregon Dory". The guy built it
in 1975 and has fished salmon, halibut and tuna since. Now that may
not seem to interesting til ya think this is launched on the beach
then bust through the surf, and then maybe spend a night or two out
cause the surf is too bad to come in. Oh, not sure if you know about
ALbacore tuna.................... they typically range from 50-100+
miles off shore. Some years they get in closer.

NOw this is done in a flat bottom open dory considered by most "modern
yachatsmen" as a good "row boat." But in Oregon this boat fishes in
conditions twice what overwhelmed Skip and Lydia.
So how big a boat do you need?!?!?
Bob

Now can you read betwen the lines here? How big a boat do you need?
Bob

well we here just dont pay much attention to yall down south and east
of us.
no one ever said we couldnt go tuna fishing in a dory so a case of
beer and a sack lunch and off we go.