* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:53 PM:
Jeff wrote:
* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed
rate 6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings
actually, but I don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But
then I'll need quite a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and
any hull-work that needs doing while it's on the hard.

So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

Heh - I have found an insurer that's quoted me 400-500 quid. Got a
couple more leads to try too.

You should compare that to a comparably sized glass boat to see what
the premium is. Perhaps they are more forgiving on your side of the
pond; perhaps the wooden boat there are newer than here in the States.


You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat.
They won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is
cheap. I don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they
certainly wouldn't to replace planks.

It's currently owned by the owner of the marina. He's hauled it himself
in the past couple of months to paint the underside.

Uh, its easy for the yard owner to make an exception for himself. You
should ask around at nearby marinas to see if there is any issue in
your area.



With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you
consider a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the
basic hull survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up
medium size problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without
worrying that you're throwing good money after bad.

Yes, the economics of this are interesting. There's a magazine article
I haven't read but have seen referred to that tots up the cost including
initial outlay and ongoing maintenance and compares GRP to wood. Comes
out about even. Then it's a question of whether you're interested in
actually doing the work, year on year.

I have friends that have lived aboard, and followed a migratory
lifestyle for the last 27 years. They do a huge amount of maintenance
work on their boat, partly because they like to by mainly because they
can't afford to pay any one else. Their current boat is a 41 foot
glass boat, which they bought pretty cheap but has probably gone up in
value with all the work that's gone into it. I doubt very much
whether they could have done this with a wooden boat. In fact, their
first larger boat was wood, and they spent more time working on it
than sailing - when they decided to live aboard they sold it and moved
to glass.


I can't get a mortgage on a wood boat, and so have limited my budget to
GBP10k (not including survey 1.5k, 1st year's insurance 0.5k and
immediate work 2k). I could get a mortgage on a glass or steel boat
(even then I can only get a 75% mortgage, so unless I get a loan to make
up the rest this only extends my budget to around 12k).

500 pounds for insurance on a 10K hull? That's 5%. Does that include
hull insurance or just liability?


Another thing that keeps me awake at night is if wooden boats are hard
to sell.

Certainly your market is reduced.

Jeff wrote:


Their current boat is a 41 foot glass
boat, which they bought pretty cheap but has probably gone up in value
with all the work that's gone into it.

That'll be the day.

* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:
Jeff wrote:


Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

There are several comparables on Soundings and Yachtworld, asking
prices ranging from $42K to $86K. They paid well under the low end of
that, thought they probably had that much in before they moved
onboard. The boat is in very good condition now, and they could
certainly ask near the high end. These are folks who raise cash by
doing boat work, mainly canvas, varnish, and mechanicals while
traveling. Their previous boat went for about 20% more then they paid
for it after they lived on it for 15 years.

My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit, but I had no desire to own two boats at once! I won't be so
lucky on my current boat, since I bought her new

On Mar 6, 6:11 pm, Jeff wrote:
* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:

Jeff wrote:
Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

Agreed!

Any hidden, I mean not considered, costs?

My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit,

Lets see, just looking at inflation at 3% per year...... x 8 years =
24%
Looks like you lost 22% of your original "investment" just in
inflation. Now add ANY yard bill and that Christmas gift for the boat.
And your time is billed at $65/hour? Oh, I forgot, youre time is
worthless cause working on a boat is a labor of love........... Trust
me I would much rather be drinking a beer, sailing, or boning the guys
girlfriend two sllips down than adding more toxic chemicals to my
body.

Love is blind.......... and so are boat owners. espeically the ones
with a dream.

* Bob wrote, On 3/7/2007 1:44 AM:
On Mar 6, 6:11 pm, Jeff wrote:
* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:

Jeff wrote:
Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

Agreed!

There are lots of cases of boats given a lot of TLC going up in value.
Its not likely to happen with me, but it does with a few. What's
not clear is whether you actually "earn" at a reasonable rate while
working on your own boat.


Any hidden, I mean not considered, costs?

Sure plenty, but that wasn't really the point.


My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit,

Lets see, just looking at inflation at 3% per year...... x 8 years =
24%

Again, not the point. The point is that with virtually no hull work,
and a little bit of engine work I was able to continue using the boat,
and then sell it for good money.

Looks like you lost 22% of your original "investment" just in
inflation. Now add ANY yard bill and that Christmas gift for the boat.
And your time is billed at $65/hour? Oh, I forgot, youre time is
worthless cause working on a boat is a labor of love........... Trust
me I would much rather be drinking a beer, sailing, or boning the guys
girlfriend two sllips down than adding more toxic chemicals to my
body.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to own a cruising boat unless I do the
bulk of the work. It was a bit different before I retired, but its
been six years since anyone else has done any work on her. This
Spring I'll have someone do the SailDrive seals because my yard won't
let me do that, and in the Fall I'll have a rigger pull the mast, but
that should do it for a few more years.

However, doing the bottom on my boat is a few hours of prep and a few
hours of nasty work. And I can skip a year every now and then. Even
If I had to pay, it wouldn't be that much money. Dealing with the
bottom of a wooden boat would be a lot more expensive, and woe be to
the poor soul that tries to skimp.


Love is blind.......... and so are boat owners. espeically the ones
with a dream.

There's no doubt that there are a lot of hidden costs that make a boat
a bad investment, compared to real estate. The point, however, is
that with a glass boat a minimal amount of care will keep the boat
viable and it becomes reasonable to spend money on improvements, etc.
With a wooden boat, a year or two of neglect, even unintentional,
could mean the total loss of the investment. Live on a glass boat for
ten years and you could probably stay on it for another ten or you can
get some money out of it. Live on a wooden boat and you might find
yourself with nothing.

Jeff, any boat which is neglected will soon start to show it.

There are many very beautiful wooden boats still afloat.

I think the issue here is the HULL. Since that is the part that sits in the
water and takes the most abuse.

If was a very rich person, I would get one of the cold molded yachts built
for me. And I would have wood decks, lots of teack, etc.

But .............. poor as a church mouse so ...... plastic.. lots of
plastic.


"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
* Bob wrote, On 3/7/2007 1:44 AM:
On Mar 6, 6:11 pm, Jeff wrote:
* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:

Jeff wrote:
Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

Agreed!

There are lots of cases of boats given a lot of TLC going up in value. Its
not likely to happen with me, but it does with a few. What's not clear is
whether you actually "earn" at a reasonable rate while working on your own
boat.


Any hidden, I mean not considered, costs?

Sure plenty, but that wasn't really the point.


My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit,

Lets see, just looking at inflation at 3% per year...... x 8 years =
24%

Again, not the point. The point is that with virtually no hull work, and
a little bit of engine work I was able to continue using the boat, and
then sell it for good money.

Looks like you lost 22% of your original "investment" just in
inflation. Now add ANY yard bill and that Christmas gift for the boat.
And your time is billed at $65/hour? Oh, I forgot, youre time is
worthless cause working on a boat is a labor of love........... Trust
me I would much rather be drinking a beer, sailing, or boning the guys
girlfriend two sllips down than adding more toxic chemicals to my
body.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to own a cruising boat unless I do the bulk
of the work. It was a bit different before I retired, but its been six
years since anyone else has done any work on her. This Spring I'll have
someone do the SailDrive seals because my yard won't let me do that, and
in the Fall I'll have a rigger pull the mast, but that should do it for a
few more years.

However, doing the bottom on my boat is a few hours of prep and a few
hours of nasty work. And I can skip a year every now and then. Even If I
had to pay, it wouldn't be that much money. Dealing with the bottom of a
wooden boat would be a lot more expensive, and woe be to the poor soul
that tries to skimp.


Love is blind.......... and so are boat owners. espeically the ones
with a dream.

There's no doubt that there are a lot of hidden costs that make a boat a
bad investment, compared to real estate. The point, however, is that with
a glass boat a minimal amount of care will keep the boat viable and it
becomes reasonable to spend money on improvements, etc. With a wooden
boat, a year or two of neglect, even unintentional, could mean the total
loss of the investment. Live on a glass boat for ten years and you could
probably stay on it for another ten or you can get some money out of it.
Live on a wooden boat and you might find yourself with nothing.