* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:19:40 +0000, biz
wrote:
My worst scenario is getting a loan to pay for the boat, being unable
to fund the ongoing repairs and maintenance and landing up with
nowhere to live. Quite a lot riding on the risk, you might think!!

I seriously doubt you will be able to find either a loan, or insurance
for a wooden boat. Especially one that needs work. If you can't do it
"out of pocket" from existing funds, then I'd say you need a new plan
with a different boat.

I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed rate
6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings actually, but I
don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But then I'll need quite
a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and any hull-work that needs
doing while it's on the hard.


So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

I can handle the thought of annual haul-out and re-painting,

You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat.
They won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is cheap.
I don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they
certainly wouldn't to replace planks.

but what
keeps me awake at night is possible re-planking running into thousands
that will effectively write it off, and with it my home. I'll be
saddled with still paying off the loan while having to pay rent
somewhere, plus I may have to pay thousands to dispose of the boat!

In fact I don't expect I'd get that far from the results of the survey.

With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you
consider a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the
basic hull survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up
medium size problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without
worrying that you're throwing good money after bad.

Jeff wrote:
* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed
rate 6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings
actually, but I don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But
then I'll need quite a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and any
hull-work that needs doing while it's on the hard.

So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

Heh - I have found an insurer that's quoted me 400-500 quid. Got a
couple more leads to try too.

You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat. They
won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is cheap. I
don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they certainly
wouldn't to replace planks.

It's currently owned by the owner of the marina. He's hauled it himself
in the past couple of months to paint the underside.

With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you consider
a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the basic hull
survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up medium size
problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without worrying that
you're throwing good money after bad.

Yes, the economics of this are interesting. There's a magazine article
I haven't read but have seen referred to that tots up the cost including
initial outlay and ongoing maintenance and compares GRP to wood.
Comes out about even. Then it's a question of whether you're interested
in actually doing the work, year on year.

I can't get a mortgage on a wood boat, and so have limited my budget to
GBP10k (not including survey 1.5k, 1st year's insurance 0.5k and
immediate work 2k). I could get a mortgage on a glass or steel boat
(even then I can only get a 75% mortgage, so unless I get a loan to make
up the rest this only extends my budget to around 12k).

Another thing that keeps me awake at night is if wooden boats are hard
to sell.

* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:53 PM:
Jeff wrote:
* biz wrote, On 3/6/2007 4:14 PM:
I've got an unsecured loan from my bank at quite a reasonable fixed
rate 6.9%. I've got about 60% of the asking price in savings
actually, but I don't want to leave myself with no ready cash. But
then I'll need quite a bit to pay for the survey and haul-out, and
any hull-work that needs doing while it's on the hard.

So you're going to buy a boat you can't insure with money you don't
have? That makes sense.

Heh - I have found an insurer that's quoted me 400-500 quid. Got a
couple more leads to try too.

You should compare that to a comparably sized glass boat to see what
the premium is. Perhaps they are more forgiving on your side of the
pond; perhaps the wooden boat there are newer than here in the States.


You're assuming you can find a yard that would haul a wooden boat.
They won't at my yard, or most of the urban yard where space is
cheap. I don't even think they would haul to scrape the bottom, they
certainly wouldn't to replace planks.

It's currently owned by the owner of the marina. He's hauled it himself
in the past couple of months to paint the underside.

Uh, its easy for the yard owner to make an exception for himself. You
should ask around at nearby marinas to see if there is any issue in
your area.



With vintage glass boats being relatively cheap, why would you
consider a wooden boat? At least with a glass boat, if it passes the
basic hull survey, then it has a predictable value and you can fix up
medium size problems like a soft deck or old rigging or engine without
worrying that you're throwing good money after bad.

Yes, the economics of this are interesting. There's a magazine article
I haven't read but have seen referred to that tots up the cost including
initial outlay and ongoing maintenance and compares GRP to wood. Comes
out about even. Then it's a question of whether you're interested in
actually doing the work, year on year.

I have friends that have lived aboard, and followed a migratory
lifestyle for the last 27 years. They do a huge amount of maintenance
work on their boat, partly because they like to by mainly because they
can't afford to pay any one else. Their current boat is a 41 foot
glass boat, which they bought pretty cheap but has probably gone up in
value with all the work that's gone into it. I doubt very much
whether they could have done this with a wooden boat. In fact, their
first larger boat was wood, and they spent more time working on it
than sailing - when they decided to live aboard they sold it and moved
to glass.


I can't get a mortgage on a wood boat, and so have limited my budget to
GBP10k (not including survey 1.5k, 1st year's insurance 0.5k and
immediate work 2k). I could get a mortgage on a glass or steel boat
(even then I can only get a 75% mortgage, so unless I get a loan to make
up the rest this only extends my budget to around 12k).

500 pounds for insurance on a 10K hull? That's 5%. Does that include
hull insurance or just liability?


Another thing that keeps me awake at night is if wooden boats are hard
to sell.

Certainly your market is reduced.

Jeff wrote:


Their current boat is a 41 foot glass
boat, which they bought pretty cheap but has probably gone up in value
with all the work that's gone into it.

That'll be the day.

* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:
Jeff wrote:


Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

There are several comparables on Soundings and Yachtworld, asking
prices ranging from $42K to $86K. They paid well under the low end of
that, thought they probably had that much in before they moved
onboard. The boat is in very good condition now, and they could
certainly ask near the high end. These are folks who raise cash by
doing boat work, mainly canvas, varnish, and mechanicals while
traveling. Their previous boat went for about 20% more then they paid
for it after they lived on it for 15 years.

My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit, but I had no desire to own two boats at once! I won't be so
lucky on my current boat, since I bought her new

On Mar 6, 6:11 pm, Jeff wrote:
* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:

Jeff wrote:
Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

Agreed!

Any hidden, I mean not considered, costs?

My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit,

Lets see, just looking at inflation at 3% per year...... x 8 years =
24%
Looks like you lost 22% of your original "investment" just in
inflation. Now add ANY yard bill and that Christmas gift for the boat.
And your time is billed at $65/hour? Oh, I forgot, youre time is
worthless cause working on a boat is a labor of love........... Trust
me I would much rather be drinking a beer, sailing, or boning the guys
girlfriend two sllips down than adding more toxic chemicals to my
body.

Love is blind.......... and so are boat owners. espeically the ones
with a dream.

* Bob wrote, On 3/7/2007 1:44 AM:
On Mar 6, 6:11 pm, Jeff wrote:
* Paul Cassel wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:36 PM:

Jeff wrote:
Their current boat is a 41 foot glass boat, which they bought pretty
cheap but has probably gone up in value with all the work that's gone
into it.

That'll be the day.

Agreed!

There are lots of cases of boats given a lot of TLC going up in value.
Its not likely to happen with me, but it does with a few. What's
not clear is whether you actually "earn" at a reasonable rate while
working on your own boat.


Any hidden, I mean not considered, costs?

Sure plenty, but that wasn't really the point.


My last boat I sold for about 2% less than I paid for it 8 years
earlier. Had I been willing to hold out, I probably could have made a
profit,

Lets see, just looking at inflation at 3% per year...... x 8 years =
24%

Again, not the point. The point is that with virtually no hull work,
and a little bit of engine work I was able to continue using the boat,
and then sell it for good money.

Looks like you lost 22% of your original "investment" just in
inflation. Now add ANY yard bill and that Christmas gift for the boat.
And your time is billed at $65/hour? Oh, I forgot, youre time is
worthless cause working on a boat is a labor of love........... Trust
me I would much rather be drinking a beer, sailing, or boning the guys
girlfriend two sllips down than adding more toxic chemicals to my
body.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to own a cruising boat unless I do the
bulk of the work. It was a bit different before I retired, but its
been six years since anyone else has done any work on her. This
Spring I'll have someone do the SailDrive seals because my yard won't
let me do that, and in the Fall I'll have a rigger pull the mast, but
that should do it for a few more years.

However, doing the bottom on my boat is a few hours of prep and a few
hours of nasty work. And I can skip a year every now and then. Even
If I had to pay, it wouldn't be that much money. Dealing with the
bottom of a wooden boat would be a lot more expensive, and woe be to
the poor soul that tries to skimp.


Love is blind.......... and so are boat owners. espeically the ones
with a dream.

There's no doubt that there are a lot of hidden costs that make a boat
a bad investment, compared to real estate. The point, however, is
that with a glass boat a minimal amount of care will keep the boat
viable and it becomes reasonable to spend money on improvements, etc.
With a wooden boat, a year or two of neglect, even unintentional,
could mean the total loss of the investment. Live on a glass boat for
ten years and you could probably stay on it for another ten or you can
get some money out of it. Live on a wooden boat and you might find
yourself with nothing.

I have to agree with Jeff. You must have a LOT of time or a VERY LOT of
money to own a wooden boat. Also you do not want to have to spend all of
your time fixing your boat, you want to spend the majority of your time
sailing her.

Ansley Sawyer
SV Pacem