On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:27:00 -0500, Larry wrote:

The Taser works on the same technology as the defibrillator machine,
pulsed current through muscle tissue. Its output is measured on watt-
seconds, as is the defib.

No it doesn't. No it isn't.

My Tesla coil is high voltage at low current, somewhere around 800KV on a
dry day at 1-2 microamps. It causes no muscle spasms, only slight RF
burns if the arc touches your skin. Feels like a pin prick from the
burning, not the current. In order to cause muscle spasms in humans, you
need 20-40 milliamps, a good shock from a defective 115VAC appliance
comes to mind. To cause muscle lockups, like the Taser produces, you
need around 60-80 ma. Death occurs at from 100-200ma, depending on the
victim's physical condition no cop is licensed to diagnose.

A Tesla coil is totally different. It puts out RF. AC skin effect
keeps the current on the surface of the skin. It WILL burn you, as you
said above about "slight RF burns". A Taser doesn't cause muscle
spasms for shock, it "masks" the normal electrical signals in all
living things and superimposes other signals.

Some specs from spec sheets:

Taser:

1. Output characteristics:
Wave form: Complex shaped pulse
Pulse rate: 19 PPS
Pulse duration: 100 microseconds
The trigger activates a 5-second cycle. The cycle can be
stopped by placing the safety lever in the “S” position.
Peak open circuit arcing voltage: 50,000 V
Peak loaded voltage: 1,200 V
Current: 2.1 mA average
Energy per pulse: Nominal at main capacitors: 0.36 joules
Delivered into load: 0.07 joules
Power rating: Nominal at main capacitors: 7 watts
Delivered into load: 1.3 watts



AED Defibrillator:

The Data-PakTM battery will operate the Samaritan® AED for over 12
hours of continuous ECG monitoring or 120 shocks at 200 Joules.


Note the current and loaded voltage. Yes it's 50,000V open air, but
drops to 1,200 V under load. The load is the human.

Also note the energy delivered into that human is 0.07 Joules and the
defib is 200 Joules - 2,857 times as much power! That is two thousand
eight hundred fifty seven. Guess the EMT's also go around killing
people, huh?


Does your cop training REALLY tell you to Tase us at traffic stops if our
"Papers Please" response to the storm troopers is insufficient, our taxes
not properly paid? The lady on the cop video had not attacked the
officers in any manner. She was sitting in her driver's seat, terrified,
and refusing to exit her vehicle for fear of being beaten up, like CNN
shows on TV quite often. Being alone and indefensible against a male
attack by a cop so mad he's screaming at her, one can only imagine her
state of fear at this screaming madman.

I think NOT....This isn't Nazi-occupied France.

...Yet.

Larry

No, our training makes it quite clear when and how much force to use.
The cop wasn't mad at all, he was using proper procedure under the
circumstances - someone threatening him and in a very excited and
agitated state. Same as an EMT, nurse or doctor would have. Okay, not
as loudly, but different circumstances. Maybe you should see if you
can find the _COMPLETE_, unedited version of the video.

Rick

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:53:41 GMT, "NE Sailboat" said:

I'm more interested in where the junky Anna Nicole will be burried.

Sorta goes along with believing in Hollywood's version of the world. I can
think of few things less important than where Anna Nicole will be buried.

Like the cast of thousands who might be the father of the baby... :-)


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:39:31 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
said:

There are also various "Legal Aide Societies" around which do a lot of
pro-bono work, using para-legals to assist in filing cases where the
plaintiff cannot afford big guns (or, for that matter, pop guns).

Spare us.

Excellent rebuttal, counselor.

"Rick Morel" wrote in message
...

No, our training makes it quite clear when and how much force to use.
The cop wasn't mad at all, he was using proper procedure under the
circumstances - someone threatening him and in a very excited and
agitated state. Same as an EMT, nurse or doctor would have. Okay, not
as loudly, but different circumstances. Maybe you should see if you
can find the _COMPLETE_, unedited version of the video.

Rick

Funny how we are always told about these "complete, unedited versions" of
the videos, but hardly ever see them.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:46:45 -0600, Rick Morel
wrote:

1. Output characteristics:
Wave form: Complex shaped pulse
Pulse rate: 19 PPS
Pulse duration: 100 microseconds
The trigger activates a 5-second cycle. The cycle can be
stopped by placing the safety lever in the “S” position.
Peak open circuit arcing voltage: 50,000 V
Peak loaded voltage: 1,200 V
Current: 2.1 mA average

Rick, there's a problem with your statistics centered around 2.1 mA
**average**.

I assume they mean the average over 1 second or greater since that
would be typical.

You've got a pulsed output at 19 pulses per second, 100 microseconds
per pulse, giving a total "on" duration of 1.9 milliseconds per
second, or roughly 1/500th of a second. That implies a peak current
of close to 1 amp in each pulse. 1 amp continuously will cause death
very quickly which is why they are pulsing it.

None of this has anything to do with boats or cruising of course.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:54:10 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:46:45 -0600, Rick Morel
wrote:

1. Output characteristics:
Wave form: Complex shaped pulse
Pulse rate: 19 PPS
Pulse duration: 100 microseconds
The trigger activates a 5-second cycle. The cycle can be
stopped by placing the safety lever in the “S” position.
Peak open circuit arcing voltage: 50,000 V
Peak loaded voltage: 1,200 V
Current: 2.1 mA average

Rick, there's a problem with your statistics centered around 2.1 mA
**average**.

I assume they mean the average over 1 second or greater since that
would be typical.

You've got a pulsed output at 19 pulses per second, 100 microseconds
per pulse, giving a total "on" duration of 1.9 milliseconds per
second, or roughly 1/500th of a second. That implies a peak current
of close to 1 amp in each pulse. 1 amp continuously will cause death
very quickly which is why they are pulsing it.

Well, the specs are direct from the manufacturer. As I recall from the
class "average" in that spec refers to the average under load, which
of course varies depending on the persons conductivity and where
he/she was hit by the barbs.

BTW 1 Joule = 1 Watt Second (how convenient!). So that .07 Joules is
..07 Watt Seconds with is .058 MA or 58 Micro Amps in a second, which
if delivered in 1.9 milliseconds per second would be 29.16 MA. Using
that logic. Of course the waveform is not a constant amplitude square
wave. I'm trying to remember, but it did have a specific waveform and
does vary.

None of this has anything to do with boats or cruising of course.

No, but it's almost as much fun as dragging a little old 80 year old
lady out of a car, throwing her onto the dirty concrete, popping her a
few times with the baton, spray her with OC pepper spray, then
Tasering her, all the while the unit cam is running so we can play it
back at the station over and over.

OF COURSE I'M KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Rick

"Rick Morel" wrote in message
...

Well, the specs are direct from the manufacturer. As I recall from the
class "average" in that spec refers to the average under load, which
of course varies depending on the persons conductivity and where
he/she was hit by the barbs.

BTW 1 Joule = 1 Watt Second (how convenient!). So that .07 Joules is
.07 Watt Seconds with is .058 MA or 58 Micro Amps in a second, which
if delivered in 1.9 milliseconds per second would be 29.16 MA. Using
that logic. Of course the waveform is not a constant amplitude square
wave. I'm trying to remember, but it did have a specific waveform and
does vary.

None of this has anything to do with boats or cruising of course.

No, but it's almost as much fun as dragging a little old 80 year old
lady out of a car, throwing her onto the dirty concrete, popping her a
few times with the baton, spray her with OC pepper spray, then
Tasering her, all the while the unit cam is running so we can play it
back at the station over and over.

OF COURSE I'M KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Rick

Rick, one of the things that concerns me is from your previous post in which
you said that, during Tazer training, some of the cops made comments such as
"When are you going to turn it on?" while others were left screaming.
Doesn't this indicate that the impact of being Tazed is wholly subjective,
and that what might be a mild tickle to one person might be sheer agony to
another? Seems to me that by calling the Tazer a "safe" way to enforce
compliance from us mere Citizens, it is inevitable that some of us will, in
fact, be "tortured," and someone, sooner or later, is going to be killed.
But if it prevents a cop from getting bruised, I guess that's a small price
to pay.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:34:39 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

Funny how we are always told about these "complete, unedited versions" of
the videos, but hardly ever see them.

Says a lot about our news media, doesn't it?

Well, join the force! You'll get to see them along with legal lessons,
use of force, getting taken down and handcuffed, controlled with a
wrist lock (Owwwww, Ai-yi-yiiiii!) and maybe choke hold, hit with a
baton (with padding and a good chance of the instructer doing it for
real to one or two to show the effects), sprayed with pepper spray and
tear gas and tasered. Oh yeah and get loads of pain from the pressure
point part of the class.

Otherwise, maybe you could file a suit for the TV station to release
all footage to you. Don't think it would work though.

Rick

"Rick Morel" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:34:39 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

Funny how we are always told about these "complete, unedited versions" of
the videos, but hardly ever see them.

Says a lot about our news media, doesn't it?

Well, join the force! You'll get to see them along with legal lessons,
use of force, getting taken down and handcuffed, controlled with a
wrist lock (Owwwww, Ai-yi-yiiiii!) and maybe choke hold, hit with a
baton (with padding and a good chance of the instructer doing it for
real to one or two to show the effects), sprayed with pepper spray and
tear gas and tasered. Oh yeah and get loads of pain from the pressure
point part of the class.

Otherwise, maybe you could file a suit for the TV station to release
all footage to you. Don't think it would work though.

Rick

Not trying to fight with you, but don't you think "if you want to see them,
join the cops" is a rather lousy response? Kinda smells of "secret
evidence," if you ask me.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:29:34 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

Rick, one of the things that concerns me is from your previous post in which
you said that, during Tazer training, some of the cops made comments such as
"When are you going to turn it on?" while others were left screaming.
Doesn't this indicate that the impact of being Tazed is wholly subjective,
and that what might be a mild tickle to one person might be sheer agony to
another? Seems to me that by calling the Tazer a "safe" way to enforce
compliance from us mere Citizens, it is inevitable that some of us will, in
fact, be "tortured," and someone, sooner or later, is going to be killed.
But if it prevents a cop from getting bruised, I guess that's a small price
to pay.

Well, pain is one of the concepts behind controlling the subject. In
fact there's a whole class on "pain compliance". In surveys of
officers going through the training every one of them, even the Tased
screaming ones (remember the screaming and flopping is a result of the
electrical stimulation, not from pain or concious effort), stated if
given a choice they would choose being Tased over OC spray. Man, Taser
me 10 times in a row instead of OC in the eyes!!! Now that is some BAD
stuff, but even with OC a very few are totally unaffected and some are
really hurting and suffer physical "burn" injury. OC is OleoCapasin
(SP?), or pepper in a solution. Some sprays are OC and CS (tear gas).
Let me see if I remember right. The hottest Jalpino pepper (I KNOW SP
is wrong) is 5,000 S Units; OTC spray for civilians is 500,000 SU and
law enforcement is up to 5,000,000 SU. (The latter two might be 50,000
and 500,000???) Anyway it's strong stuff.

Getting hit with a baton hurts pretty much too. Hurts some more than
others. BTW, batons are used only on specific strike pressure points
to disable, not to injure. A fist in the gut will disable some in
agonizing pain, while others will laugh it off. And everything in
between. Pain itself is wholly subjective. Thing is pain is a
byproduct of the Taser and it's designed to minimize that pain as much
as possible. We all wish there was a spray you could use from up to 30
feet or so that would instantly "knock out" someone painlessly for at
least 10 seconds. Maybe one day....

I've got to protest the term "tortured". Torture is deliberatly
inflicting extreme pain for gain, ie to get information, or for the
torturer's pleasure or for punishment. Torture is illegal in the US
and most places.

As above pain is a tool, however it's administered. A tool that is
only used when necessary and then only as much pain as required. The
Taser in most cases is the least painful. Recovery is instant after
the power goes off, unlike spray which requires decontaminating. It's
not used on "mere citizens", it's used on people who are presenting a
danger to the officer, others or themselves. Cops, just like everyone
else, don't like "getting bruised". Also getting broken, stabbed,
concussed, blunt trama'ed or killed. Our goal is to go home at the end
of shift.

Tasers have saved lives. Of the subject. In cases where an officer, in
multiple officer situations, had a Taser and the subject threatened
and/or acted upon deadly force. ie the subject had a knife or a
baseball bat or an axe. No Taser = gun and use of deadly force.

I'm not saying Tasers are perfect or ideal. They're good tools in the
proper situation, just as are all the tools of the trade. You'd no
more use a Taser on a falling down drunk than you'd use a storm jib on
a 5-knot day.

Gotta' go for a bit. I've got to hit work in the middle of the night
and do a bunch of overtime.

Rick