Reading Skip Gundlach's discussion of fixing "Flying Pig" and having
built 4 boats with epoxy, the issue of primary rather than secondary
bonding is often on my mind. A primary, (chemical) bond is much
stronger than a secondary mechanical bond. There ought to be a way to
promote a chemical bond (polymerization) with the underlying
material. I wonder if treating it with something like epoxy paint
remover first would do this. I need to get back in touch with a
polymer chemist friend of mine about this cuz I think it'd be a good
product if it'd work.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
ups.com...
Reading Skip Gundlach's discussion of fixing "Flying Pig" and having
built 4 boats with epoxy, the issue of primary rather than secondary
bonding is often on my mind. A primary, (chemical) bond is much
stronger than a secondary mechanical bond. There ought to be a way to
promote a chemical bond (polymerization) with the underlying
material. I wonder if treating it with something like epoxy paint
remover first would do this. I need to get back in touch with a
polymer chemist friend of mine about this cuz I think it'd be a good
product if it'd work.


Is it ever possible to get a primary bond between polyester resin and epoxy?
I don't know, but I've been told "no" by so many people over the years that
I tend to act as if I believe it.

KLC Lewis wrote:

Is it ever possible to get a primary bond between polyester resin and
epoxy? I don't know, but I've been told "no" by so many people over
the years that I tend to act as if I believe it.

"They" always told me to use epoxy on old polyester because it would be
stronger than new polyester to old. Maybe not a primary bond but strong. I
remember gazing at my navel over a transducer through hull backing block
that wouldn't have much mechanical connection because the fitting was the
flush type with very little shoulder. I wanted to use 5200 because of the
difficulty in fitting a block tightly and working with epoxy at arm's length
in a small space. According to the published tensile strength numbers, the
6" x 6" block would lift the boat. Now, I wouldn't stand under it if I
tried it but it seemed like plenty of strength for the job to me.

Some perspective on strength may be in order. If "Flying Pig" had been a
classic wooden boat, the total tensile strength of her hull would have been
the area of the frames or about the same as less than 3/8 inch of wood. The
static caulking and swelling pressure would already load up these structural
members significantly. Her bulkheads would have probably landed on a frames
and had two screws in each plank, maybe 80 screws in all and each close to
the end of the plank they held. Boats of this construction have weathered
many storms and circumnavigations. Most of them had some rot somewhere by
the time they were really tested.

It's true that, if FP had been a wooden boat, S&L probably would have been
standing in the water long before the chopper arrived. It would also be
nice if the restored boat was as strong or stonger then when built.
However, there is also the question of how strong it really needs to be.
Stronger is always bettter but, if that was the only consideration, we would
all be sailing steel boats.

If the best tabbing job that can be done without stripping the boat fails
down the road, it's highly unlikely the boat would sink, even in a major
storm. They might have to ease off on the sails and limp a bit but the
worst probable case isn't that dire. The most likely failure mode would be
for the localized high stress areas to start to open up. The big gun
repairs could then be concentrated on those in a year or two.

Remember, this boat was pounding on coral with all these structural members
loose and she still came off watertight.

--
Roger Long

On Feb 14, 1:42 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
KLC Lewis wrote:
Is it ever possible to get a primary bond between polyester resin and
epoxy? I don't know, but I've been told "no" by so many people over
the years that I tend to act as if I believe it.

"They" always told me to use epoxy on old polyester because it would be
stronger than new polyester to old. Maybe not a primary bond but strong. I
remember gazing at my navel over a transducer through hull backing block
that wouldn't have much mechanical connection because the fitting was the
flush type with very little shoulder. I wanted to use 5200 because of the
difficulty in fitting a block tightly and working with epoxy at arm's length
in a small space. According to the published tensile strength numbers, the
6" x 6" block would lift the boat. Now, I wouldn't stand under it if I
tried it but it seemed like plenty of strength for the job to me.

Some perspective on strength may be in order. If "Flying Pig" had been a
classic wooden boat, the total tensile strength of her hull would have been
the area of the frames or about the same as less than 3/8 inch of wood. The
static caulking and swelling pressure would already load up these structural
members significantly. Her bulkheads would have probably landed on a frames
and had two screws in each plank, maybe 80 screws in all and each close to
the end of the plank they held. Boats of this construction have weathered
many storms and circumnavigations. Most of them had some rot somewhere by
the time they were really tested.

It's true that, if FP had been a wooden boat, S&L probably would have been
standing in the water long before the chopper arrived. It would also be
nice if the restored boat was as strong or stonger then when built.
However, there is also the question of how strong it really needs to be.
Stronger is always bettter but, if that was the only consideration, we would
all be sailing steel boats.

If the best tabbing job that can be done without stripping the boat fails
down the road, it's highly unlikely the boat would sink, even in a major
storm. They might have to ease off on the sails and limp a bit but the
worst probable case isn't that dire. The most likely failure mode would be
for the localized high stress areas to start to open up. The big gun
repairs could then be concentrated on those in a year or two.

Remember, this boat was pounding on coral with all these structural members
loose and she still came off watertight.

--
Roger Long

I have to agree with Roger on this. I've seen a number of fiberglass
boats that have taken a pounding, been repaired and sailed/motored
away to be just fine.

I think it's way over reacting to say it will never be as strong so
it's time to junk it or risk dying at sea.

I say, fix the rudder, retab/epoxy it, reinforce where you can and get
on with the trip.

The boat doesn't seem to have any major holes in it for crying out
loud.

I just did a quick search for information on secondary bonds. I don't know
how authoratitive the one site I saw is but it quoted 2000 psi for epoxy on
old polyester. New polyester itself was only quoted at 500. So, 10 square
inches could lift the boat except that the polyester would give up first.
It would have taken 40 square inches, 6.32 inches on a side, to lift her
the way she was built originally. I'm sure it's not that good in practice
but even if it's way, way, off....

--
Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
I just did a quick search for information on secondary bonds. I don't
know how authoratitive the one site I saw is but it quoted 2000 psi for
epoxy on old polyester. New polyester itself was only quoted at 500.
So, 10 square inches could lift the boat except that the polyester would
give up first. It would have taken 40 square inches, 6.32 inches on a
side, to lift her the way she was built originally. I'm sure it's not
that good in practice but even if it's way, way, off....

2000 psi is about the right ballpark for epoxy in shear. My concern
is that the tabbing is probably compromised by the damage. If the
tabbbing just mostly peeled, it might be o.k. If it was my boat I'd
probably take a grinder to the tabbing and re-do it with biaxial and
epoxy.

It took me about a week to redo ALL the tabbing on my last boat, a 30'
mono with a lot of lockers and compartments. It was not that big a job.

Evan Gatehouse

On Feb 14, 4:35 pm, "capt.bill11" wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:42 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:



KLC Lewis wrote:
Is it ever possible to get a primary bond between polyester resin and
epoxy? I don't know, but I've been told "no" by so many people over
the years that I tend to act as if I believe it.

"They" always told me to use epoxy on old polyester because it would be
stronger than new polyester to old. Maybe not a primary bond but strong. I
remember gazing at my navel over a transducer through hull backing block
that wouldn't have much mechanical connection because the fitting was the
flush type with very little shoulder. I wanted to use 5200 because of the
difficulty in fitting a block tightly and working with epoxy at arm's length
in a small space. According to the published tensile strength numbers, the
6" x 6" block would lift the boat. Now, I wouldn't stand under it if I
tried it but it seemed like plenty of strength for the job to me.

Some perspective on strength may be in order. If "Flying Pig" had been a
classic wooden boat, the total tensile strength of her hull would have been
the area of the frames or about the same as less than 3/8 inch of wood. The
static caulking and swelling pressure would already load up these structural
members significantly. Her bulkheads would have probably landed on a frames
and had two screws in each plank, maybe 80 screws in all and each close to
the end of the plank they held. Boats of this construction have weathered
many storms and circumnavigations. Most of them had some rot somewhere by
the time they were really tested.

It's true that, if FP had been a wooden boat, S&L probably would have been
standing in the water long before the chopper arrived. It would also be
nice if the restored boat was as strong or stonger then when built.
However, there is also the question of how strong it really needs to be.
Stronger is always bettter but, if that was the only consideration, we would
all be sailing steel boats.

If the best tabbing job that can be done without stripping the boat fails
down the road, it's highly unlikely the boat would sink, even in a major
storm. They might have to ease off on the sails and limp a bit but the
worst probable case isn't that dire. The most likely failure mode would be
for the localized high stress areas to start to open up. The big gun
repairs could then be concentrated on those in a year or two.

Remember, this boat was pounding on coral with all these structural members
loose and she still came off watertight.

--
Roger Long

I have to agree with Roger on this. I've seen a number of fiberglass
boats that have taken a pounding, been repaired and sailed/motored
away to be just fine.

I think it's way over reacting to say it will never be as strong so
it's time to junk it or risk dying at sea.

I say, fix the rudder, retab/epoxy it, reinforce where you can and get
on with the trip.

The boat doesn't seem to have any major holes in it for crying out
loud.

Preface: for those interested in the gory details, pictures are up in
the gallery at the end of my sig line. Click the first thumbnail...

Conversation with the yard owners has confirmed my suspicions in many
regards. The nicer of them (you'll see a different post on the other
side) is reflected in the prior couple of posts about our stout old
gal, with which they agree. So...

We finally have a plan. This is the letter I just sent to my
adjuster:

From: "Skip Gundlach"
To: "Gibson, Jean" ; ; "My
Gmail post Copy"
Subject: Flying Pig and Keys Boat Works
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:00 PM

Hi, Jean,

We are being raped here. We are moving the boat back to Salt Creek
Marina.
We have talked with several contractors here in the yard (including
one the
yard was going to use for fiberglass work), and there is total
agreement on
our course of action, suggested by them before we brought it up, but
confirming our suspicions as to the way to proceed. Which is:

Some quick-and-dirty repairs to make her watertight and steerable
(well,
improve steering - it steered behind our tow in, but could be better),
and
off we go.

We are headed to Salt Creek Marina, 107 15th Avenue SE, St. Petersburg
FL
33701. We'll re-establish contact from our first internet availability
once
we are off. We'll pay the yard bills and keep the receipts, in the
event
they are of any use. The yard bills here are 6 times what they'll be
in St.
Pete. TowBoatUS already knows about you and has effectively got a
lien on
the vessel for salvage, so that will be handled by insurance funds.
As the
total costs of our repair, even if we contract the repairs 2-3x more
effectively in St. Pete, will exhaust the (insurance) funds available,
we're
no longer going to retain anything for Bob to see or review for
restitution,
so there's no need for his review on any of those.

We'll stay in touch. However, as Captain, I have to take
responsibility for
my vessel, and she is in dire peril (financially) here, so we're
taking
measures to minimize the damage.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On Feb 14, 7:21 pm, "Skip Gundlach" wrote:
On Feb 14, 4:35 pm, "capt.bill11" wrote:



On Feb 14, 1:42 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:

KLC Lewis wrote:
Is it ever possible to get a primary bond between polyester resin and
epoxy? I don't know, but I've been told "no" by so many people over
the years that I tend to act as if I believe it.

"They" always told me to use epoxy on old polyester because it would be
stronger than new polyester to old. Maybe not a primary bond but strong. I
remember gazing at my navel over a transducer through hull backing block
that wouldn't have much mechanical connection because the fitting was the
flush type with very little shoulder. I wanted to use 5200 because of the
difficulty in fitting a block tightly and working with epoxy at arm's length
in a small space. According to the published tensile strength numbers, the
6" x 6" block would lift the boat. Now, I wouldn't stand under it if I
tried it but it seemed like plenty of strength for the job to me.

Some perspective on strength may be in order. If "Flying Pig" had been a
classic wooden boat, the total tensile strength of her hull would have been
the area of the frames or about the same as less than 3/8 inch of wood. The
static caulking and swelling pressure would already load up these structural
members significantly. Her bulkheads would have probably landed on a frames
and had two screws in each plank, maybe 80 screws in all and each close to
the end of the plank they held. Boats of this construction have weathered
many storms and circumnavigations. Most of them had some rot somewhere by
the time they were really tested.

It's true that, if FP had been a wooden boat, S&L probably would have been
standing in the water long before the chopper arrived. It would also be
nice if the restored boat was as strong or stonger then when built.
However, there is also the question of how strong it really needs to be.
Stronger is always bettter but, if that was the only consideration, we would
all be sailing steel boats.

If the best tabbing job that can be done without stripping the boat fails
down the road, it's highly unlikely the boat would sink, even in a major
storm. They might have to ease off on the sails and limp a bit but the
worst probable case isn't that dire. The most likely failure mode would be
for the localized high stress areas to start to open up. The big gun
repairs could then be concentrated on those in a year or two.

Remember, this boat was pounding on coral with all these structural members
loose and she still came off watertight.

--
Roger Long

I have to agree with Roger on this. I've seen a number of fiberglass
boats that have taken a pounding, been repaired and sailed/motored
away to be just fine.

I think it's way over reacting to say it will never be as strong so
it's time to junk it or risk dying at sea.

I say, fix the rudder, retab/epoxy it, reinforce where you can and get
on with the trip.

The boat doesn't seem to have any major holes in it for crying out
loud.

Preface: for those interested in the gory details, pictures are up in
the gallery at the end of my sig line. Click the first thumbnail...

Conversation with the yard owners has confirmed my suspicions in many
regards. The nicer of them (you'll see a different post on the other
side) is reflected in the prior couple of posts about our stout old
gal, with which they agree. So...

We finally have a plan. This is the letter I just sent to my
adjuster:

From: "Skip Gundlach"
To: "Gibson, Jean" ; ; "My
Gmail post Copy"
Subject: Flying Pig and Keys Boat Works
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:00 PM

Hi, Jean,

We are being raped here. We are moving the boat back to Salt Creek
Marina.
We have talked with several contractors here in the yard (including
one the
yard was going to use for fiberglass work), and there is total
agreement on
our course of action, suggested by them before we brought it up, but
confirming our suspicions as to the way to proceed. Which is:

Some quick-and-dirty repairs to make her watertight and steerable
(well,
improve steering - it steered behind our tow in, but could be better),
and
off we go.

We are headed to Salt Creek Marina, 107 15th Avenue SE, St. Petersburg
FL
33701. We'll re-establish contact from our first internet availability
once
we are off. We'll pay the yard bills and keep the receipts, in the
event
they are of any use. The yard bills here are 6 times what they'll be
in St.
Pete. TowBoatUS already knows about you and has effectively got a
lien on
the vessel for salvage, so that will be handled by insurance funds.
As the
total costs of our repair, even if we contract the repairs 2-3x more
effectively in St. Pete, will exhaust the (insurance) funds available,
we're
no longer going to retain anything for Bob to see or review for
restitution,
so there's no need for his review on any of those.

We'll stay in touch. However, as Captain, I have to take
responsibility for
my vessel, and she is in dire peril (financially) here, so we're
taking
measures to minimize the damage.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link:http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries atwww.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us athttp://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglogand/orhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Got any pics of the inside damage? Not for morbid voyeurism but cuz
this has put me into vicarious problem solving mode.

Looking at those pictures of the busted tabbing I see nothing that
couldn't be fixed with 10 days of solid labour, an angle grinder with
a bunch of 24 grit disks and a pile of biaxial tape.

Evan Gatehouse