HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Any of you ever use a Wag Bag? How do they work out? Where is the cheapest
place to purchase? What about the Pooh-Powder?

This sounds like a good plan for boats without heads who want to do the
responsible thing.

============



....................................We have no installed head due to our
dislike
of holding tanks, so we have made an enclosure with seat and lid for
a bucket and have come up with solutions that we feel work well.
Offshore, we use the bucket-and-chuck- it system. Near shore or in
enclosed anchorages, we use Wag Bags in the bucket. These fully
biodegradable bags-familiar to dog and cat owners-contain special
powder (called Pooh-Powder) that turns urine into a gel and
deodorizes the waste. The special enzymes in the gel also kill
bacteria and promote the breakdown of waste and bags. After using the
bag (one bag can be used five or six times), we simply seal it into
the separate biodegradable pouch supplied with each kit. Then it can
be deposited in the trash for disposal at landfills. ................ the
waste
product is allowed to break down in compost heaps; within four
months, the compost can be used safely for gardening. They also are
used for emergency waste management, such as during the aftermath of
Hurricane Katrina, when more than a million of the bags were used in
the area around New Orleans. ....................................

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in news:59EAh.5466$2%1.1289
@trndny02:

These fully
biodegradable bags-familiar to dog and cat owners-contain special
powder (called Pooh-Powder) that turns urine into a gel and
deodorizes the waste. The special enzymes in the gel also kill
bacteria and promote the breakdown of waste and bags. After using the
bag (one bag can be used five or six times), we simply seal it into
the separate biodegradable pouch supplied with each kit. Then it can
be deposited in the trash for disposal at landfills.

WAY too much information while I'm eating my breakfast!......(c;

So, instead of crapping over the side, which makes the shrimp and crabs
fat and happy campers on-the-spot, we crap in a bag full of chemicals,
turn bio-degradeable human waste into a chemical soup that's preserved
with formaldehyde (or some other soup so it won't rot in a thousand
years) and bury it in a landfill where it will be remembered for
centuries by historians and archeologists who discover it while
excavating for ancient treasures. Have I got that right?

Why do humans think they're so "special" that their **** isn't simply
consumed by the same scavenging sea life that all the other sea**** is
consumed by IF LEFT ALONE AND NOT TURNED INTO A CHEMICAL WASTE DISASTER?!

Humans taking a crap makes a guilt trip that destroys the planet. Whales
taking a crap that weighs in tons, not ounces, doesn't create a guilt
trip that destroys the planet. How stupid....and unnecessary. **** in
the bucket and dump it overboard to feed the planet....NOT IN PLASTIC
BAGS, PLEASE, biodegradeable or otherwise!

And remember......ALWAYS **** TO LEE! "AIM HIGH - AIR FORCE"

See that big freighter headed out to sea? He doesn't have a holding
tank, either! Don't swim in his wake....hee hee.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
snip..
Humans taking a crap makes a guilt trip that destroys the planet. Whales
taking a crap that weighs in tons, not ounces, doesn't create a guilt
trip that destroys the planet. How stupid....and unnecessary. **** in
the bucket and dump it overboard to feed the planet....NOT IN PLASTIC
BAGS, PLEASE, biodegradeable or otherwise!

snip..


Yeah but.... I doubt there are 6 billion whales out there ****ting into the
ocean.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Larry ,, according the the REI, etc web sites that sell the bags; the bag
will decompose in 5 months. If this is wrong? Tell me.

Truth be told: I **** in a bucket and throw it near the big Hinkley moored
nearby. Hinkley and Stinkley sounds nice together.

But the USCG will fine someone if they come on board and find a head with
direct discharge. So, trying to do the right thing without spending a huge
amount of money ... the whole holding tank idea is so nuts on a small
sailboat. With a large boat, there is room to place the tank, the pump, the
pump out, etc.

I just thought this was a good idea, or at least a plan.

========================================



"Larry" wrote in message
...
"NE Sailboat" wrote in news:59EAh.5466$2%1.1289
@trndny02:

These fully
biodegradable bags-familiar to dog and cat owners-contain special
powder (called Pooh-Powder) that turns urine into a gel and
deodorizes the waste. The special enzymes in the gel also kill
bacteria and promote the breakdown of waste and bags. After using the
bag (one bag can be used five or six times), we simply seal it into
the separate biodegradable pouch supplied with each kit. Then it can
be deposited in the trash for disposal at landfills.

WAY too much information while I'm eating my breakfast!......(c;

So, instead of crapping over the side, which makes the shrimp and crabs
fat and happy campers on-the-spot, we crap in a bag full of chemicals,
turn bio-degradeable human waste into a chemical soup that's preserved
with formaldehyde (or some other soup so it won't rot in a thousand
years) and bury it in a landfill where it will be remembered for
centuries by historians and archeologists who discover it while
excavating for ancient treasures. Have I got that right?

Why do humans think they're so "special" that their **** isn't simply
consumed by the same scavenging sea life that all the other sea**** is
consumed by IF LEFT ALONE AND NOT TURNED INTO A CHEMICAL WASTE DISASTER?!

Humans taking a crap makes a guilt trip that destroys the planet. Whales
taking a crap that weighs in tons, not ounces, doesn't create a guilt
trip that destroys the planet. How stupid....and unnecessary. **** in
the bucket and dump it overboard to feed the planet....NOT IN PLASTIC
BAGS, PLEASE, biodegradeable or otherwise!

And remember......ALWAYS **** TO LEE! "AIM HIGH - AIR FORCE"

See that big freighter headed out to sea? He doesn't have a holding
tank, either! Don't swim in his wake....hee hee.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
snip..
Humans taking a crap makes a guilt trip that destroys the planet. Whales
taking a crap that weighs in tons, not ounces, doesn't create a guilt
trip that destroys the planet. How stupid....and unnecessary. **** in
the bucket and dump it overboard to feed the planet....NOT IN PLASTIC
BAGS, PLEASE, biodegradeable or otherwise!

snip..


Yeah but.... I doubt there are 6 billion whales out there ****ting into
the ocean.


Nor are there six billion people in boats on the sea.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:quFAh.1825$Zp3.385@trndny04...
Larry ,, according the the REI, etc web sites that sell the bags; the bag
will decompose in 5 months. If this is wrong? Tell me.

Truth be told: I **** in a bucket and throw it near the big Hinkley
moored nearby. Hinkley and Stinkley sounds nice together.

But the USCG will fine someone if they come on board and find a head with
direct discharge. So, trying to do the right thing without spending a
huge amount of money ... the whole holding tank idea is so nuts on a
small sailboat. With a large boat, there is room to place the tank, the
pump, the pump out, etc.

I just thought this was a good idea, or at least a plan.

========================================


An MSD with pumpout seems to work for a lo of small boats

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Don ,, no pumpout for me. Not this season, next season, or next season
after that season. No holding tank, and I don't like making holes in my
deck.

Good try though.


Hey,, you don't own a big stinky Hinkley do ya?


===================================
"Don White" wrote in message
...

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:quFAh.1825$Zp3.385@trndny04...
Larry ,, according the the REI, etc web sites that sell the bags; the
bag will decompose in 5 months. If this is wrong? Tell me.

Truth be told: I **** in a bucket and throw it near the big Hinkley
moored nearby. Hinkley and Stinkley sounds nice together.

But the USCG will fine someone if they come on board and find a head with
direct discharge. So, trying to do the right thing without spending a
huge amount of money ... the whole holding tank idea is so nuts on a
small sailboat. With a large boat, there is room to place the tank, the
pump, the pump out, etc.

I just thought this was a good idea, or at least a plan.

========================================


An MSD with pumpout seems to work for a lo of small boats

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:ujHAh.4145$7s2.1151@trndny07...
Don ,, no pumpout for me. Not this season, next season, or next season
after that season. No holding tank, and I don't like making holes in my
deck.

Good try though.


Hey,, you don't own a big stinky Hinkley do ya?




I wish...
I travel light... http://sailquest.com/market/models/spipe.htm

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"Don White" wrote in
:

Yeah but.... I doubt there are 6 billion whales out there ****ting
into the ocean.




Where did you see a figure about 6 billion sailors crapping over the side??
I'd think it nearer 20,000, tops, but only on Saturday.



Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:quFAh.1825$Zp3.385@trndny04:

Larry ,, according the the REI, etc web sites that sell the bags; the
bag will decompose in 5 months. If this is wrong? Tell me.

That BAG decomposes in 5 months, probably true. But, alas, it doesn't
say what effect the decomposing bag has as it RELEASES the toxic chemical
slurry INSIDE the bag, do they? What chemicals are used in the bag?

Truth be told: I **** in a bucket and throw it near the big Hinkley
moored nearby. Hinkley and Stinkley sounds nice together.

Any sailor that tells you he doesn't pee over the side of the dock, in
the dark, when he hopes noone is looking (at least those not potential
mating partners) is a LIAR!

If you see me, don't look....not my type.


But the USCG will fine someone if they come on board and find a head
with direct discharge. So, trying to do the right thing without
spending a huge amount of money ... the whole holding tank idea is
so nuts on a small sailboat. With a large boat, there is room to
place the tank, the pump, the pump out, etc.



You are ALREADY doing the right thing! The regulations about holding
tanks and Y valves is for MOUNTED systems....permanently mounted heads
plumbed into the boat. The regs do NOT cover a Portapotti that is NOT
mounted into the boat in a permanent manner, a "portable device", whether
that's a rusty old bucket, a covered plastic bucket from Dunkin' Donuts
(works great, $1), or a "pretty" Portapottie/Sanipottie. If you have a
stern-mounted 1-holer hangin out over the ocean, that's not covered,
either....like old sailing ships had...(c;

Well, I WAS headed out for dinner at a Chinese buffet I like, but since
getting back on this thread I may have to wait a while until my stomach
stops churning....


Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Here's an old post I saved:
____________________________-
To add a little more confusion to the marine water pollution
arguments, the
journal SCIENCE (29 Mar. 2002) reported on a study which tracked the
biological sources of fecal bacterial in Virginia watersheds. Only 15%
of E.
coli bacteria had a human origin (i.e. septic runoff and boat
discharge). The
remainder came from other animal hosts, the largest contributor being
waterfowl with 32.5% of the total. Similar studies are being carried
out in
California, Washington, and Oregon.

Whats next? Diapers for geese?
________________________

Besides, it's not illegal to pee or crap over the side, it's only
illegal to discharge it after it's been contained. Therefore, get one
of these and be legal:
http://www.bumperdumper.com/bumper2.htm
Just get rid of the plastic bag and let 'er fly!

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:50:31 -0500, Larry wrote:

You are ALREADY doing the right thing! The regulations about holding
tanks and Y valves is for MOUNTED systems....permanently mounted heads
plumbed into the boat. The regs do NOT cover a Portapotti that is NOT
mounted into the boat in a permanent manner, a "portable device", whether
that's a rusty old bucket, a covered plastic bucket from Dunkin' Donuts
(works great, $1), or a "pretty" Portapottie/Sanipottie. If you have a
stern-mounted 1-holer hangin out over the ocean, that's not covered,
either....like old sailing ships had...(c;

Actually they do cover Portapotties and buckets. They are called
"devices". Even the stern mounted 1-holer is a "device". However,
peeing over the side or hanging one's fanny over the side is allowed
under the regs. Might be wiser to immerse the involved body parts in
the water in a crowded marina for obvious reasons. You just can't use
any "device".

Rick

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Larry wrote:
The regulations about holding
tanks and Y valves is for MOUNTED systems....permanently mounted heads
plumbed into the boat. The regs do NOT cover a Portapotti that is NOT
mounted into the boat in a permanent manner, a "portable device", whether
that's a rusty old bucket, a covered plastic bucket from Dunkin' Donuts
(works great, $1), or a "pretty" Portapottie/Sanipottie. If you have a
stern-mounted 1-holer hangin out over the ocean, that's not covered,
either....like old sailing ships had...(c;

Sorry, Larry, but the regs DO cover discharge of sewage from any device,
installed or not.

Sewage is defined in the CFR as "human body wastes and the wastes from
toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste."

Discharge is defined in the CFR as "includes, but is not limited to, any
spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping."

Note that while "marine sanitation device" is defined as "any equipment
for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain,
treat, or discharge sewage, and any process to treat such sewage," there
is no mention of marine sanitation devices in the definition of
"discharge."

So although the CFR does require that any vessel that has an installed
toilet also be equipped with either a holding tank or a CG certified
treatment device, the CFR also makes it illegal to discharge raw sewage
from ANY container--portpotty, bucket, or even a coffee cup, whether
it's installed or not--inside the "3 mile limit." And what isn't covered
in MARINE sanition laws is covered by the laws pertaining to sewage from
all sources including those on land.

However, it is NOT illegal to pee into the water from the lee rail or
hang your butt off the stern...it's only illegal to put waste into any
container and empty the container into the water.

I didn't write the law, I'm just the messenger.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Peggie,

I would suggest that if there is no mention of 'devices' in the
definition of "Discharge", the the term "emitting" could easily be
construed to include direct human discharge whether there is an interim
device used or not. The definition is literally to "send forth" either
matter or energy.

Keith Hughes

Peggie Hall wrote:
Larry wrote:

The regulations about holding tanks and Y valves is for MOUNTED
systems....permanently mounted heads plumbed into the boat. The regs
do NOT cover a Portapotti that is NOT mounted into the boat in a
permanent manner, a "portable device", whether that's a rusty old
bucket, a covered plastic bucket from Dunkin' Donuts (works great,
$1), or a "pretty" Portapottie/Sanipottie. If you have a
stern-mounted 1-holer hangin out over the ocean, that's not covered,
either....like old sailing ships had...(c;


Sorry, Larry, but the regs DO cover discharge of sewage from any device,
installed or not.

Sewage is defined in the CFR as "human body wastes and the wastes from
toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste."

Discharge is defined in the CFR as "includes, but is not limited to, any
spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping."

Note that while "marine sanitation device" is defined as "any equipment
for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain,
treat, or discharge sewage, and any process to treat such sewage," there
is no mention of marine sanitation devices in the definition of
"discharge."

So although the CFR does require that any vessel that has an installed
toilet also be equipped with either a holding tank or a CG certified
treatment device, the CFR also makes it illegal to discharge raw sewage
from ANY container--portpotty, bucket, or even a coffee cup, whether
it's installed or not--inside the "3 mile limit." And what isn't covered
in MARINE sanition laws is covered by the laws pertaining to sewage from
all sources including those on land.

However, it is NOT illegal to pee into the water from the lee rail or
hang your butt off the stern...it's only illegal to put waste into any
container and empty the container into the water.

I didn't write the law, I'm just the messenger.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Keith Hughes wrote:
Peggie,

I would suggest that if there is no mention of 'devices' in the
definition of "Discharge", the the term "emitting" could easily be
construed to include direct human discharge whether there is an interim
device used or not. The definition is literally to "send forth" either
matter or energy.

Theoretically you're correct. However, in actual practice the "emitting"
of waste directly from a body into the water is permitted.

Peggie


Peggie Hall wrote:
Larry wrote:

The regulations about holding tanks and Y valves is for MOUNTED
systems....permanently mounted heads plumbed into the boat. The regs
do NOT cover a Portapotti that is NOT mounted into the boat in a
permanent manner, a "portable device", whether that's a rusty old
bucket, a covered plastic bucket from Dunkin' Donuts (works great,
$1), or a "pretty" Portapottie/Sanipottie. If you have a
stern-mounted 1-holer hangin out over the ocean, that's not covered,
either....like old sailing ships had...(c;


Sorry, Larry, but the regs DO cover discharge of sewage from any
device, installed or not.

Sewage is defined in the CFR as "human body wastes and the wastes from
toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste."

Discharge is defined in the CFR as "includes, but is not limited to,
any spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping."

Note that while "marine sanitation device" is defined as "any
equipment for installation on board a vessel which is designed to
receive, retain, treat, or discharge sewage, and any process to treat
such sewage," there is no mention of marine sanitation devices in the
definition of "discharge."

So although the CFR does require that any vessel that has an installed
toilet also be equipped with either a holding tank or a CG certified
treatment device, the CFR also makes it illegal to discharge raw
sewage from ANY container--portpotty, bucket, or even a coffee cup,
whether it's installed or not--inside the "3 mile limit." And what
isn't covered in MARINE sanition laws is covered by the laws
pertaining to sewage from all sources including those on land.

However, it is NOT illegal to pee into the water from the lee rail or
hang your butt off the stern...it's only illegal to put waste into any
container and empty the container into the water.

I didn't write the law, I'm just the messenger.




--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Interesting. Seems like that would still allow for a lot of "local
discretion" however.

Keith Hughes

Peggie Hall wrote:

Keith Hughes wrote:

Peggie,

I would suggest that if there is no mention of 'devices' in the
definition of "Discharge", the the term "emitting" could easily be
construed to include direct human discharge whether there is an
interim device used or not. The definition is literally to "send
forth" either matter or energy.


Theoretically you're correct. However, in actual practice the "emitting"
of waste directly from a body into the water is permitted.

Peggie

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Theoretically you're correct. However, in actual practice the "emitting"
of waste directly from a body into the water is permitted.

Peggie
================

Peggie ,, the only answer is the "Underwater Pooper".

I made the first model in the cellar. My sales pitch is "Dive Right In".

=========

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
. net...
Keith Hughes wrote:
Peggie,

I would suggest that if there is no mention of 'devices' in the
definition of "Discharge", the the term "emitting" could easily be
construed to include direct human discharge whether there is an interim
device used or not. The definition is literally to "send forth" either
matter or energy.

Theoretically you're correct. However, in actual practice the "emitting"
of waste directly from a body into the water is permitted.

Peggie


Peggie Hall wrote:
Larry wrote:

The regulations about holding tanks and Y valves is for MOUNTED
systems....permanently mounted heads plumbed into the boat. The regs
do NOT cover a Portapotti that is NOT mounted into the boat in a
permanent manner, a "portable device", whether that's a rusty old
bucket, a covered plastic bucket from Dunkin' Donuts (works great, $1),
or a "pretty" Portapottie/Sanipottie. If you have a stern-mounted
1-holer hangin out over the ocean, that's not covered, either....like
old sailing ships had...(c;


Sorry, Larry, but the regs DO cover discharge of sewage from any device,
installed or not.

Sewage is defined in the CFR as "human body wastes and the wastes from
toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste."

Discharge is defined in the CFR as "includes, but is not limited to, any
spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping."

Note that while "marine sanitation device" is defined as "any equipment
for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain,
treat, or discharge sewage, and any process to treat such sewage," there
is no mention of marine sanitation devices in the definition of
"discharge."

So although the CFR does require that any vessel that has an installed
toilet also be equipped with either a holding tank or a CG certified
treatment device, the CFR also makes it illegal to discharge raw sewage
from ANY container--portpotty, bucket, or even a coffee cup, whether
it's installed or not--inside the "3 mile limit." And what isn't covered
in MARINE sanition laws is covered by the laws pertaining to sewage from
all sources including those on land.

However, it is NOT illegal to pee into the water from the lee rail or
hang your butt off the stern...it's only illegal to put waste into any
container and empty the container into the water.

I didn't write the law, I'm just the messenger.




--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Rick Morel wrote in
:

Might be wiser to immerse the involved body parts in
the water in a crowded marina for obvious reasons. You just can't use
any "device".


Is THAT why that lady on the next dock over was screaming obscenities at
me?! She just couldn't leave it alone...kept screaming about the
"environment". Damned greenies.....

Larry

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Peggie Hall wrote in news:v0%Ah.6138$o61.899
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:

However, it is NOT illegal to pee into the water from the lee rail or
hang your butt off the stern...it's only illegal to put waste into any
container and empty the container into the water.



We got that covered, too, in SC. The cop explained it to me. He called it
"Indecent Exposure". I told him it was beer an hour ago, before it became
illegal....(c;

Ok, I'll stop dumping the Portapottie tank over the side, too....darn....

I want my Monomatic back....You only had to dump it once a year....(sigh)
If you hook a Monomatic to a 25 gallon RV holding tank, you only have to
dump it just before you sell it....(c;

Larry
--
"And away goes trouble, down the drain...."

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Peggie Hall wrote in news:fu0Bh.22309$zH1.14173
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:

Theoretically you're correct. However, in actual practice the "emitting"
of waste directly from a body into the water is permitted.



But, not into the public swimming pool at the park....please....

Larry
--
Vista has been out a week.
Is Service Pack 1 ready yet?

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

You need to look at the underlying act, not just the CFR. Look at
Section 312 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (33 U.S.C. 1322),
under marine sanitation devices. It states, in part:

(6) ‘‘sewage’’ means **human body wastes and** emphasis added the
wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain
body wastes except that, with respect to commercial vessels on
the Great Lakes, such term shall include graywater;

From the same section:

(9) ‘‘discharge’’ includes, but is not limited to, any spilling,
leaking, pumping, pouring, **emitting** emphasis added, emptying or
dumping;

It's clear from the underlying act that human wastes, contained in
non-biological containers or not, are "sewage", and cannot legally be
discharged untreated. I'll happily bow to Peggie's greater knowledge
regarding enforcement, but it seems clear that hanging your butt over
the rail in the marina isn't legal.

Keith Hughes


Dave wrote:

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:41:15 -0700, Keith Hughes
said:


Interesting. Seems like that would still allow for a lot of "local
discretion" however.


Not a bit. The regulations say you must secure the device to prevent
discharge. They do not say you must secure your ass to prevent discharge.
You can look it up.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text... .5.27.1.179.3

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Maybe you should learn how to think in a logical manner before jumping
in with snide comments in a heretofore friendly discussion. The legal
obligations relate to discharge of untreated wastes and sewage, yes? The
definitions tell you what constitutes "sewage" and what constitutes
"discharge". Human waste *is* sewage. Which part of that is unclear?

Keith Hughes

Dave wrote:

And you apparently need to learn how to read. Those are definitions.
Definitions do not in and of themselves create legal obligations. I'll stand
by my prior post.



On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:11:33 -0700, Keith Hughes
said:


You need to look at the underlying act, not just the CFR. Look at
Section 312 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (33 U.S.C. 1322),
under marine sanitation devices. It states, in part:

(6) ‘‘sewage’’ means **human body wastes and** emphasis added the
wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain
body wastes except that, with respect to commercial vessels on
the Great Lakes, such term shall include graywater;

From the same section:

(9) ‘‘discharge’’ includes, but is not limited to, any spilling,
leaking, pumping, pouring, **emitting** emphasis added, emptying or
dumping;

It's clear from the underlying act that human wastes, contained in
non-biological containers or not, are "sewage", and cannot legally be
discharged untreated. I'll happily bow to Peggie's greater knowledge
regarding enforcement, but it seems clear that hanging your butt over
the rail in the marina isn't legal.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
...
"local discretion"

Local excretion?

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

On Feb 14, 1:42 pm, Larry wrote:

Where did you see a figure about 6 billion sailors crapping over the side??
I'd think it nearer 20,000, tops, but only on Saturday.

Therein lies the problem. I'm all for no discharge zones (with Pump-A-
Heads available), pilling, ticketing, et.al. A crap or two is almost
not a problem, but look what happened to Avalon Bay. A *lot* of boats
in a non-flushing bay, with all merrily crapping away, is a public
health concern. It's like crapping behind the bushes in public parks.

Same goes for marinas in calm backbays. There might be 200 people in
the marina my boat's in, drinkin' barbecuin' and sunburnin', on a nice
day. If they were all and ****in' and crappin' overboard, it'd
literally stink on a calm day.

Peggie's assesment of the legalities of hangin' it over the side vs. a
"device" isn't the crux of the matter, don't be "discharging" in no
discharge zones. Just because it's unenforceable (BTW, what's done
with the toilet paper?) doesn't mean it's not good manners. One of
public health's greatest victories is our sanitation infrastructure;
let's not backslide.

Three miles out, fire away, and it's just not that big of a deal to
arrange to not crap in zones. There's shoreside facilities a row or
hoof nearby, or it's a transient situation. Not to start another
debate, but I think Lectro-San systems are OK too; it's ground up and
sterilized; better than most treatment plants in Mexico.

The million whales problem is a dodge, swimming around in *human*
waste makes one orders of magnitude more at risk for a serious disease
compared to fish poop (although high concentrations of that is a bit
icky too).

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

"Mark" wrote in news:1171855078.467553.322710
@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

The million whales problem is a dodge, swimming around in *human*
waste makes one orders of magnitude more at risk for a serious disease
compared to fish poop (although high concentrations of that is a bit
icky too).


I don't believe that's quite correct. Human waste isn't any more toxic
than any other animal's waste and is 100% recycled by lower life forms in
water or on land. Human waste is just as sanitary as YOU are! Human
urine, I've read, is totally sanitary, too. During sex, millions drink
it and don't die or get sick...just exhausted..(c; We've been
brainwashed for thousands of years that humans are something special,
different from all the other planet inhabitants. It's simply not true.
STORED human waste BECOMES toxic, spoiled for consumption by the
scavengers. TREATED human waste is the REAL problem, here. We turn
recyclable human waste into a toxic chemical soup full of formaldehyde or
some new exotic replacement for formaldehyde so it doesn't stink or decay
with a half-life of a thousand years. We dump genetically-engineered
bacteria that are so tough they can't be killed into it! THAT is what's
wasting the planet...in the name of money, of course.

I was raised in a tiny town in upstate NY, the first 18 years until I
joined the Navy. Our human waste dumped straight into a cesspool, a huge
pit in the gravel behind our house lined with concrete blocks to keep it
from caving in. Not once was that pit ever pumped out or overflowing.
Life forms in the ground consumed what was in that pit. One of its real
benefits was the HUGE earthworms for fishing, all fat and happy campers,
that were dug up in the garden right around where that pit was located.
Earthworms ARE one of the recyclers. I used to dig 'em up and sell 'em
to my grandfather's fishing buddies by the thousands. For many years,
our part of the little town didn't have town water lines. Everyone had a
drilled well a few hundred feet deep into the aquifer....not far from
everyone's cesspool. THAT water was CLEANER than the runoff water
delivered to the taps in town. That all changed when government
bureaucrats showed up in all the towns in the valley and wasted hundreds
of millions of dollars turning our recyclable waste into treated sewage,
then dumping that in the inlet to Owasco Lake. Today, with all this
treated sewage soup, Owasco Lake went from water we drank, DIRECTLY, over
the side of everyone's fishing boat, to a new cesspool with huge algae
blooms, dead fish kills, all that city crap. They ruined it. No fish
died from all the cesspools behind all the lakefront cottages that had
been under the outhouses 100' from the lake for centuries. Why?

http://www.hws.edu/news/update/showw...webclipid=2742
"Dave VanArsdale remembers spending his summers fishing on Owasco Lake
when the water was so clear he could see the fish and the bottom of the
lake.

Today, VanArsdale, a property owner on Owasco Lake in Fleming for 42
years, can see no more than three feet into the lake now overflowing with
weeds and algae.

Owasco Lake is in the worst condition of the Finger Lakes, said John
Halfman, director of environmental studies at Hobart and William Smith
Colleges, at a meeting planned by state Sen. Michael Nozzolio at Emerson
Park Thursday night."

42 years ago, I was DRINKING Owasco Lake water when everyone had
cesspools and recycled waste. Now they're trying to explain away the
STUPIDITY of turning Moravia, Locke and Groton waste into chemical soup
and dumping it in the lake. These towns have NOT changed population in a
hundred years! They are the ONLY sewage plants dumping into the lake!
Stupid asses....

Sit on a conveniently placed log in the woods. Take a dump. Come back
in a month. It's GONE!...CONSUMED by the recyclers from bacteria to
insects to comedian Ron White's dog. Sure makes some beetles really
happy. Don't store it in a bucket until it spoils. Don't bury it to
hide it from them. Humans have been crapping in the woods for millions
of years (a couple of thousands for you devout Christians). Just like
the lakes should be 3" deep in motor oil from the 2-stroke engines that
have been running all over them for the last 100 years, the woods should
be knee deep in human waste. Neither is true!

Think human waste is special? You need to spend a day in a DAIRY BARN
shoveling what comes out of the COWS! My grandfather raised huge, prize
Holsteins, where that really sweet milk you love comes from. Been there,
done that, got ****ed on a lot....and didn't die!....and ALL of it was
spread over the fields making the hay rich and lush all summer.

Japanese farmers, smarter than us, COLLECT human waste that hasn't
spoiled and spread it over their rice plantations because it's some of
the finest fertilizer on the planet....that DOESN'T pollute groundwater
like what comes out of a Monsanto does. They've been doing it for
thousands of years! (Monsantos are big, ugly monsters.)


Do warn the swimmers downstream, however...(c; Sometimes it floats and
they always scream if they are not warned, teen girls especially. It's
also, probably, best to wait until the diver cleaning the hull is
finished. You can hold it that long.

Larry
--
Vista has been out a week.
Is Service Pack 1 ready yet?

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

On Feb 18, 9:17 pm, "Mark" wrote:


Therein lies the problem. I'm all for no discharge zones (with Pump-A-
Heads available), pilling, ticketing, et.al.

Do you even know what a "no discharge" zone is? Dumping raw sewage
within 3 miles of shore has been illegal for years. These "no
discharge" zones only mean that you can't use a type I or II unit,
which treats waste better than a municipal sewer plant before it
discharges it. What's the logic behind making a no discharge zone?
Instead of using a LectraSan, you have to put it in a holding tank and
pump it to a sewer plant, which won't treat it as well, and will dump
tons of raw sewage into the waterways every time there's a heavy rain.
That's one of the big problems with these "no discharge" zones... very
few people understand them or what they mean, much less the actualy
effects.

HEAD, for boat with no HEAD. Wag Bag question ..
 

Here's a good article on how much water pollution critters generate.
Maybe they should declare open season on geese!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hcmodule