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Can anyone ID this knot?
This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic
sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. |
Can anyone ID this knot?
"BarelyAwake" wrote in message ... This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. Is this a trick question? Sure looks like a bowline to me. Karin |
Can anyone ID this knot?
BarelyAwake wrote:
This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. Its a bowline, but not in the standard form. I'm too lazy to fetch my copy of Ashley to find the name of this variant. |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Oops, I think I suffered a major brain cramp. I guess it is a bowline. I
should probably hold off on the magic mushrooms till after dinner! Thanks for responding. "KLC Lewis" wrote in message ... "BarelyAwake" wrote in message ... This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. Is this a trick question? Sure looks like a bowline to me. Karin |
Can anyone ID this knot?
"BarelyAwake" wrote in message ... Oops, I think I suffered a major brain cramp. I guess it is a bowline. I should probably hold off on the magic mushrooms till after dinner! Thanks for responding. That's okay. Just upload some of those puppies my way and we'll forget all about it. :-D |
Can anyone ID this knot?
BarelyAwake schreef:
This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. ... still tied up inside the boom. the bowline what might be different for you: this one is tied with the bitter end sticking out of the bend some say this is the 'dutch bowline' and indeed, in dutch instructions, this form sometimes shows up http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paalsteek in english texts it is mentioned as the wrong bowline although there are instructions for this form where it is the only bowline: http://www.dougpile.com/mac19/p3.html knot wrong, Ben |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Jeff wrote:
BarelyAwake wrote: This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. Its a bowline, but not in the standard form. I'm too lazy to fetch my copy of Ashley to find the name of this variant. OK, its the Dutch Bowline or Cowboy Bowline. I was always taught it was flawed, but I guess Dutch cowboys think differently. http://www.realknots.com/knots/sloops.htm |
Can anyone ID this knot?
As for the hitch inside the boom http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg
I'll be the first one. I am sure that if I am wrong I will be corrected by some of the old timers. I cannot see too deep inside the boom. With what I am able to see at the end of the boom this knot resembles a "Bowline on a bight". Some time I use it when a rope is too long and I do not want to cut it but rather shortening it See the following link and tell me what you think? http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline... tedknots.com "BarelyAwake" wrote in message ... This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. |
Can anyone ID this knot?
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:36:28 -0500, Jeff wrote:
BarelyAwake wrote: This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. Its a bowline, but not in the standard form. I'm too lazy to fetch my copy of Ashley to find the name of this variant. Don't know if there is a particular name for it - I'd just call it a "bad" bowline, with the tail outside the main loop, rather than inside where it belongs. (The rabbit went around the tree the wrong way.) -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Peter Bennett wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:36:28 -0500, Jeff wrote: BarelyAwake wrote: This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. Its a bowline, but not in the standard form. I'm too lazy to fetch my copy of Ashley to find the name of this variant. Don't know if there is a particular name for it - I'd just call it a "bad" bowline, with the tail outside the main loop, rather than inside where it belongs. (The rabbit went around the tree the wrong way.) Stupid Rabbit! Elmer probably nailed that one! G |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Its a bowline, but not in the standard form. I'm too lazy to fetch my
copy of Ashley to find the name of this variant. Don't know if there is a particular name for it - I'd just call it a "bad" bowline, with the tail outside the main loop, rather than inside where it belongs. (The rabbit went around the tree the wrong way.) Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole. But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside) is the correct one :) e.g.: In the 19th century for the German navy the correct bowline was tail outside, while for the german mercantile marine the correct bowline was tail inside. -- http://www.skipperguide.com |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Peter wrote:
Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole. But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside) is the correct one :) So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms? How to make a qualified decision which style to use? -Heikki |
Can anyone ID this knot?
In Heikki writes:
Peter wrote: Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole. But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside) is the correct one :) So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms? How to make a qualified decision which style to use? I do not believe that there is any serious difference, but if you asked the German military of merchant navy some 60 years ago, the other would say, that the other is useless and should never be used and the other would have the explanation reversed. :-) The strongest opinions relate to things that do not make any difference. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Can anyone ID this knot?
I agree that it is a Dutch bowline. I tied one and compared it to the
original and they match. The way the line is run is as follows. The outhaul enters the boom, goes through a block (which is attached to a cable shackeled to the sail), then the end of the line is tied to the padeye in the boom. It results in 2:1 purchase on the outhaul. It looks like the bowline has held well for a long time, but with the bad press that the bowline gets for loosening when the load is removed, I wonder if I might be better off using a buntline hitch instead. I don't want to have to take the boom apart again because the knot came untied. As a mtter of fact, I am even thinking about putting an exit plate on the boom and tying the line to a padeye on the outside. I just can't understand why they built the boom with and inaccessible line. wrote in message ... As for the hitch inside the boom http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg I'll be the first one. I am sure that if I am wrong I will be corrected by some of the old timers. I cannot see too deep inside the boom. With what I am able to see at the end of the boom this knot resembles a "Bowline on a bight". Some time I use it when a rope is too long and I do not want to cut it but rather shortening it See the following link and tell me what you think? http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline... tedknots.com "BarelyAwake" wrote in message ... This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't recognize this one. Can someone identify it? The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the hitch, still tied up inside the boom. http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg TIA for any assistance. |
Can anyone ID this knot?
BarelyAwake wrote:
I agree that it is a Dutch bowline. I tied one and compared it to the original and they match. The way the line is run is as follows. The outhaul enters the boom, goes through a block (which is attached to a cable shackeled to the sail), then the end of the line is tied to the padeye in the boom. It results in 2:1 purchase on the outhaul. It looks like the bowline has held well for a long time, but with the bad press that the bowline gets for loosening when the load is removed, I wonder if I might be better off using a buntline hitch instead. I don't want to have to take the boom apart again because the knot came untied. As a mtter of fact, I am even thinking about putting an exit plate on the boom and tying the line to a padeye on the outside. I just can't understand why they built the boom with and inaccessible line. I use a buntline hitch almost everywhere for lines like the outhaul, reef lines, lazyjacks, etc. I learned it as the stuns'l tackbend and have had very good experiences with it. The one problem is that it can be difficult to untie, although if you have full access it can be teased apart. However, in this case, it looks like the hitch would slide into the boom an would be impossible to untie. The bowline, however, will be easy to pick apart when the time comes. Although a bowline can be "flopped open" in an application like a jib sheet, I have trouble seeing how that could happen in this case where the outhaul spends almost its entire life under constant load. Moreover, the consequences of that failure are pretty minimal. FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often discussed few people can offer a recent example. I use bowlines on my jib sheets because a buntline would be too big and would present a danger. It looks like this is a proper setup; I wouldn't change it at all. From the looks of it, the line hasn't suffered at all. |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Its a 'reverse' bowline
Very weak and can 'trip' In article , BarelyAwake wrote: http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg |
Can anyone ID this knot?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:31:21 +0100, Heikki wrote:
Peter wrote: Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole. But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside) is the correct one :) So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms? How to make a qualified decision which style to use? -Heikki When using a bowline to attach jib sheets to the sail, the "tail inside" version is alleged to be less likely to hang up on the shrouds as you tack. There is also a slight possibility that if the "tail outside" version gets stuck on something, the tail may be pulled back and upset the knot. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Can anyone ID this knot?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:31:21 +0100, Heikki wrote:
Peter wrote: Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole. But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside) is the correct one :) So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms? How to make a qualified decision which style to use? Some of the post seem to indicate that it's based on sexual orientation ;-) -Heikki |
Can anyone ID this knot?
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Can anyone ID this knot?
and indeed, in dutch instructions, this form sometimes shows up
And in English instructions, too. From one Dutch knot tyer I read that the two forms are known--in parlance but not in the literature-- as, roughly translated, Naval & Merchant Naval ("Marine"?). e.g.: In the 19th century for the German navy the correct bowline was tail outside, while for the german mercantile marine the correct bowline was tail inside. Peter, where'd you learn this? --sounds much like my source re the Dutch, and as Dutch/German are so close, I think one or the other has it wrong (and I just noticed one mistake re "respectively" in my source, so ...). in english texts it is mentioned as the wrong bowline --- Its a 'reverse' bowline Very weak and can 'trip' There is so much silly stuff re knots! These knots have been tested in kernmantle ropes and found to be of equal strength--though with each there is a range of dressing and orientation that might affect such strength. As for "trip"ing, if anything the common Bowline is more vulnerable to capsizing, as the part of the knot to turn over--i.e., the nipping loop in the standing part--will have begun this by pulling the end in that direction (whereas in the end-outside bowline the corresponding part will bear load). with the bad press that the bowline gets for loosening when the load is removed, I wonder if I might be better off using a buntline hitch instead. --- FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often discussed few people can offer a recent example It would help the understanding were such knot failures (and successes--"behavior", either way) presented as behavior ***of a material so knotted***, and NOT of a *knot* (which means a schema for making some physical entity). In rockclimbing kernmantle nylon ropes--which are considerably firmer/stiffer than the yachting double-braid shown here, a bowline can loosen readily and come untied--from jiggling, or by capsizing upon a fall. Black Diamond Equipment's recent catalogue featured the story of one of their employees who suffered this fate (and is recovering). No amount of success in using bowlines in material-X can influence how things to in material-W. --dl* ==== |
Can anyone ID this knot?
Sorry, I lost the attribution to this
FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often discussed few people can offer a recent example But I saw a bowline failure last weekend! My knife lanyard is tied with a duobled figure-8 knot to the knife, and the other end is left straight. When rigging down our ship, I tied the other end to a loop in my pocket with a bowline. I kept the knife in my jacket pocket (folded) on my right side, and lanyard was tied to an upper pocket on the left. When ever I needed the knife, I could just grab the lanyard and yank it out of the pocket. This produced a load pattern with the line slack most of the time, with some hard pulls in between. After about two hours I suddenly realised that the bowline had come undone. The line was regular white flag line, double-braided, about 3mm thick. I don't know the name of the improved bowline I used for reattaching the lanyard, but that held for the rest of the day. (googling shows a water bowline that looks quite much like what I did) - Heikki |
Can anyone ID this knot?
"Heikki" wrote in message ... But I saw a bowline failure last weekend! My knife lanyard is tied with a duobled figure-8 knot to the knife, and the other end is left straight. When rigging down our ship, I tied the other end to a loop in my with a bowline. I kept the knife in my jacket pocket (folded) on my right side, and lanyard was tied to an upper pocket on the left. When ever I needed the knife, I could just grab the lanyard and yank it out of the pocket. This produced a load pattern with the line slack most of the time, with some hard pulls in between. After about two hours I suddenly realised that the bowline had come undone. The line was regular white flag line, double-braided, about 3mm thick. I suffered that failure regularly too, and stopped using bowlines in light line for attaching knives/marline spikes etc, switching instead to round turn and (3) half hitches. Critical factors were that the flag line was very smooth - even slippery - and relatively stiff for its diameter, so tended not to jam up. Never had a failure in heavy line though, even when the stress cycle was similar (on a secondary bow line made up to a quay in surging conditions). Which all goes to confirm the importance of a particular type of line and stress cycle when assessing which knot to use. There is no 'universal' knot. -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ Compares the cruise areas of Europe |
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