A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the
strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age
would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it
for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that.

I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any
of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and
in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which
have exposed us to boats we'd not known about.

In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual
YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various
reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding
the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also
had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s
quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today.

That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like,
are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising,
rather than falling.

That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat
(presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30
year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and
equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time
before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real
time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case,
selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's
going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat
type.

What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will
it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later?

L8R

Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to
be received!

Skip Gundlach wrote:

In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual
YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various
reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding
the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also
had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s
quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today.


Skip,

If you are using YachtWorld as your "boat catalog", and if you
have a broker that is working for *you* not the seller, you can
ask your broker to obtain a list of the *actual* selling prices
for a sampling of a particular type of boat. (YachtWorld member
brokers are supposed to report this information.) Compare this
with the asking prices and throw out the extremes (boats that
sold for their full asking price and boats that sold for a small
fraction of their asking price) and you should be able to get a
good idea of what your target boat is actually selling for.

Of course there's no hard-fast rule. Ultimately a boat is worth
what a buyer is willing to pay for it. This may or may not be
close to what the seller is willing to part with it for. My
father used to say that if both the buyer and the seller feel
that they were ripped off, then it was probably a pretty good deal.

BTW, if you win the lottery there's a boat on page 34 of the new
(Oct 03) issue of "Sailing" that might meet your needs. ;-)

Cindy

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the
strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age
would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it
for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that.

I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any
of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and
in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which
have exposed us to boats we'd not known about.

In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual
YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various
reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding
the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also
had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s
quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today.

That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like,
are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising,
rather than falling.

I think this is the result of two different effects. One is that inflation
has some effect on prices, so that even a boat that was not moving up or
down in price will appear to be selling for more now than it did 5 years
ago.

The other thing in operation is the reputation and desirability of various
boats. A boat with a good reputation for being well constructed will hold
its value better than a boat with the reputation of being flimsily made.
And some boats are rarer and therefore some people find those boats more
desirable than normal market pressures would account for.


That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat
(presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30
year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and
equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time
before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real
time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case,
selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's
going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat
type.

What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will
it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later?

L8R

Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to
be received!


grandma Rosalie

I'm sure you've done a lot more research on this than I have, but my brief
look at prices over the last 2 years says they are down a fair amount.

Paul
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
nk.net...
A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was
the
strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age
would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it
for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that.

I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite.
Any
of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and
in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which
have exposed us to boats we'd not known about.

In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the
usual
YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various
reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding
the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they
also
had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s
quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today.

That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the
like,
are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising,
rather than falling.

That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat
(presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the
20-30
year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and
equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time
before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real
time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular
case,
selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that
it's
going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat
type.

What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon,
will
it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later?

L8R

Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet
to
be received!

I think that simple demographics dictate that boat prices *must* go
down. The majority of potential boat buyers...esp. distance
cruisers...are getting older fast, and while they may have the money,
they don't have the time or energy in many cases.

My wife was born in 1974 during the depths of the "baby bust". Despite
having a somewhat stale degree, she has been told that if she decides
to become a high-school science teacher at the age of 30, she will
have a job for life....because all the boomers are retiring, but few
are buying boats.

In many cases, it takes two incomes to live as well as our parents did
(I'm 42), and to own an urban house and a boat and a car and a
cottage...well, the boat goes first, unless you are dedicated to
upping anchor and becoming a live-aboard for years.

Few are.

This is bad news for the industry (which is locked into producing dock
jewelry anyway) and good news for the few people shopping for a
middle-aged, uncomplicated, bulletproof design.

Hang around Florida and scan the obits. in Ft. Lauderdale, etc. Grim
as it sounds, you'll soon find a widow motivated to sell quick. The
kids won't want to sail when it means their kids will miss Suzuki
Method, soccer practice, or the latest gangsta rap MP3.

R.


On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:50:27 GMT, "Paul L"
wrote:

I'm sure you've done a lot more research on this than I have, but my brief
look at prices over the last 2 years says they are down a fair amount.

Paul
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ink.net...
A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was
the
strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age
would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it
for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that.

I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite.
Any
of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and
in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which
have exposed us to boats we'd not known about.

In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the
usual
YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various
reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding
the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they
also
had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s
quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today.

That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the
like,
are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising,
rather than falling.

That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat
(presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the
20-30
year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and
equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time
before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real
time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular
case,
selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that
it's
going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat
type.

What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon,
will
it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later?

L8R

Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet
to
be received!

wrote:
I think that simple demographics dictate that boat prices *must* go
down. The majority of potential boat buyers...esp. distance
cruisers...are getting older fast, and while they may have the money,
they don't have the time or energy in many cases.

Great logic, but unfortunately it doesn't work. More than 2/3 of the
boats sold today are used boats...a reflection of a market that's
becoming saturated. However, instead of driving down the prices of new
boats, this actually drives prices up...because boat builders have fixed
expenses...and the more units they can build and sell, the more units
their fixed expenses can be amortised over, driving prices down...but
the fewer units they can sell, the more they have to sell 'em for just
to stay in business.

So the net result: instead of prices going down, fewer choices at higher
prices...and a market that just keeps on becoming more and more
saturated...until there may not be ANY market for new boats at all.

My last boat was 16 yrs old when I bought her....21 when I sold her (at
a small profit, btw). She was most assuredly a "project" boat--nothing
on her worked...but she was sound. I paid $25k for her...spend another
$20k replacing/upgrading everything on her...evening adding a bunch of
things--like an icemaker. Total investment for a boat that, except for
the hull, WAS a new boat that had every "bell and whistle" any 'floating
condo' buyer could want: $45k. Comparable new: $175-$195k. So why would
anyone buy new when they have it all for 1/4 the price?

I'm not the only person to figure that out...which is why more than 2/3
of all boats sold today are used boats...and why the prices of new boats
can only keep going up to keep the boat builders in business.

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

Peggie Hall wrote:

...more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats...

Peggie,
Is this an actual number or a guess on your part? If real, I'm amazed
that the number isn't much higher. At least for larger boats, of all
the people I've known who own sailboats, there's only one that I know of
that actually bought a new boat - perhaps that's why the yacht club I
used to belong to was sometimes self-described as the "poor white trash
of yacht clubs" ;-}

Had we restricted ourselves to buying a new boat for what we paid for
our used Tayana, we would have been limited to an unequiped Catalina 27
(or similar boat). Buying used was a complete no brainer. I honestly
don't know who buys new boats, but it sure isn't us.

btw, thanks for being such a great resource. You fill an information
need here and elsewhere on the net like no one else.
--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448

B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

I know two people who bought new boats in the last 5 years. One of them
is a female physician. Good income, possibly limited "fix-it" skills,
limited time. She bought a mid 30's Tartan. The other, a bankruptcy
attorney, has bought two new boats in the last 5 years. The first was a
23-24 ft Beneteau, the second, a Catalina 36. Same profile, limited
"fix-it" skills, high income, etc. He spoke of a "good trade in" value
for the first boat. I shudder to think of the depreciation of the
Catalina until it's value stabilizes. FWIW

Jonathan

Daniel E. Best wrote:
Peggie Hall wrote:

...more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats...


Peggie,
Is this an actual number or a guess on your part? If real, I'm amazed
that the number isn't much higher. At least for larger boats, of all
the people I've known who own sailboats, there's only one that I know of
that actually bought a new boat - perhaps that's why the yacht club I
used to belong to was sometimes self-described as the "poor white trash
of yacht clubs" ;-}

Had we restricted ourselves to buying a new boat for what we paid for
our used Tayana, we would have been limited to an unequiped Catalina 27
(or similar boat). Buying used was a complete no brainer. I honestly
don't know who buys new boats, but it sure isn't us.

btw, thanks for being such a great resource. You fill an information
need here and elsewhere on the net like no one else.

Daniel E. Best wrote:
Peggie Hall wrote:

...more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats...


Peggie,
Is this an actual number or a guess on your part? If real, I'm amazed
that the number isn't much higher.

It's real...the last numbers I saw were 67%. They're a few years old, so
the current number could be even higher.

At least for larger boats, of all
the people I've known who own sailboats, there's only one that I know of
that actually bought a new boat - perhaps that's why the yacht club I
used to belong to was sometimes self-described as the "poor white trash
of yacht clubs" ;-}

If yours was, mine was too. My dock at my YC had 16 slips...all the
boats on it were 30-42', not a one newer than 15 years old, the oldest
was a 1970...all beautifully restored and updated. We had one empty
slip, which was taken by a new member with a brand new 36' aft cabin
cruiser...who couldn't quite manage to hide his disdain for our old
"dowager queens"...till he finally figured out that all of us were
equally unimpressed by the fact that he was the only person on the dock
making boat payments...we'd all paid cash--about what his down payment
was--and put what we would have paid a bank into restoration...and our
boats had all the "bells and whistles" his did.

But I guess somebody has to buy new boats...otherwise, there wouldn't be
any old ones TO restore.

btw, thanks for being such a great resource. You fill an information
need here and elsewhere on the net like no one else.

Thanks for the kind words!

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

I like your analysis on new boats. Makes sense that they will increase in
price, beyond inflation, as demand/volume goes down. There doesn't seem to
be any great 'productivity' gains being applied to building new boats that
would drive the prices down like desktop PCs. Proucdtion has already been
moved overseas. So what does this really mean for the used boat market? Less
new boats coming on the market, prices go up, less overall demand, prices go
down. ???
Paul
www.jcruiser.org
"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I think that simple demographics dictate that boat prices *must* go
down. The majority of potential boat buyers...esp. distance
cruisers...are getting older fast, and while they may have the money,
they don't have the time or energy in many cases.

Great logic, but unfortunately it doesn't work. More than 2/3 of the
boats sold today are used boats...a reflection of a market that's
becoming saturated. However, instead of driving down the prices of new
boats, this actually drives prices up...because boat builders have fixed
expenses...and the more units they can build and sell, the more units
their fixed expenses can be amortised over, driving prices down...but
the fewer units they can sell, the more they have to sell 'em for just
to stay in business.

So the net result: instead of prices going down, fewer choices at higher
prices...and a market that just keeps on becoming more and more
saturated...until there may not be ANY market for new boats at all.

My last boat was 16 yrs old when I bought her....21 when I sold her (at
a small profit, btw). She was most assuredly a "project" boat--nothing
on her worked...but she was sound. I paid $25k for her...spend another
$20k replacing/upgrading everything on her...evening adding a bunch of
things--like an icemaker. Total investment for a boat that, except for
the hull, WAS a new boat that had every "bell and whistle" any 'floating
condo' buyer could want: $45k. Comparable new: $175-$195k. So why would
anyone buy new when they have it all for 1/4 the price?

I'm not the only person to figure that out...which is why more than 2/3
of all boats sold today are used boats...and why the prices of new boats
can only keep going up to keep the boat builders in business.

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html