Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and harder to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright. A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Gordon wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

CG has suspended search for the 3 missing crewmen.
Craft was a 44 footer coming from Frisco to Puget Sound. Last log
input stated they had lowered the sails and streamed 2 anchors. EPIRB
was found locked up where it couldn't deploy.
Gordon

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and harder
to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable
state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright. A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside
down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.




Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:00:53 -0800, Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

More he

http://news.google.com/?ned=us&ncl=1112035558&hl=en

Matt O.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and harder
to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable
state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright. A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside
down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.



Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

sherwindu wrote:
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

You're using the Titanic as an example of why monohulls are safer than
multis? That's a pretty convincing argument.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and
harder
to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable
state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright.
A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside
down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.



Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.



Well, that's what actually didn't happen. The cat didn't sink did it? Or,
are the pictures faked?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
sherwindu wrote:
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

You're using the Titanic as an example of why monohulls are safer than
multis? That's a pretty convincing argument.


I'm convinced, but not about that. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message ...
"sherwindu" wrote in message ...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and harder to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright. A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.




Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Yep, don't leave the boat until the boat leaves you. I would feel safer in a multihull.

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Harbin Osteen" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and
harder to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable
state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright.
A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside
down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.




Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Yep, don't leave the boat until the boat leaves you. I would feel safer in
a multihull.

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?


Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.
However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke. Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

I've thought about this a lot, especially since a number of my friends
thought it might have been my cat - we are planning to sail from
Trinidad to Mexico this spring.

I realize that in the past I've felt very safe in the cockpit of my
catamaran, enough not to require my crew or myself to use a harness. I
realize this is probably not as precautious an attitude as I'd thought,
at least not at night or during anything other than great weather.

While we always have jack lines rigged up for going outside the
coamings, I think a line running abeam just below the bimini hard top
might not be a bad idea at all.

Your hypothesis of what might have happened, and your advice about
staying inside, hove to, etc. seem spot on to me. Also, an SSB or HAM
radio, or maybe a satellite phone would have been an excellent option.

I was once in a very bad storm off Magdelina Bay, the worst I've ever
seen. I radioed a friend, gave him my coordinates and checked back in
every hour. Nothing bad happened, but knowing there was someone on land
watching for me helped the crew's (and my) piece of mind immensely. Had
we had problems, at least someone would have known our position and last
status.

Cheers,

Robb

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.
However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke. Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

AMPowers wrote:


I realize that in the past I've felt very safe in the cockpit of my
catamaran, enough not to require my crew or myself to use a harness.

Maybe okay if weatther is flat and have a designated LO on deck.


Your hypothesis of what might have happened, and your advice about
staying inside, hove to, etc. seem spot on to me.

The last log was 60 miles off Cape Blanco, Or at 3 AM. My wife spent
her early years there because her granny lived on Cape Blanco Road. My
brother in law is heading to Port Orford ( just south of Cape B) for a
friends service. A 45' commercial craber was trying to get in. Yes, 45'
is pretty samll to crab in the winte around here. Most are atleast 60'
+ full on steel draggers that gear up for crab instead. Bar was
breaking and the boat rolled with a deck load of dungie pots: 4 lost.
Lets see, one week with two boats lost and 7 dead.

And ya wonder why its called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.

10 miles is too close for those conditions. Too shallow. Seas break.
boats flip. At cape blance, as with other capes adn headlands ya
always got a shallow that sticks miles out plus the wind gets pilled up
at the head lands and increases teh velocity. Somthing about a ventury
effect.

Bad advice to get close. Mybe if youre a 180' OSV and can just run the
bow up in the mud.
Over here, with 90 knot winds pushing your boat on an inceasingly
shallow area combined with rocks... you are screwed. Run out as fast as
possble. Belive me its easy to run your boat in too clsoe and not even
know it til its too late.

I was once in a very bad storm off Magdelina Bay, the worst I've ever
seen.

If you are here writing about it, most likely it was not that bad.


Cheers,

Robb

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.

Jeff wrote:

sherwindu wrote:
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

You're using the Titanic as an example of why monohulls are safer than
multis? That's a pretty convincing argument.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the
concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never
sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will
go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging
to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your
first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a
grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't
have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.


The logical choice is to pick the most survivable situation and to recognize
when a situation is becoming untenable. I suggest that you've never been in
a washing machine-style situation, where everything (as a best case) is
going round and round and everything is flying. It's not a place you would
want to stay for very long. Need a dramatic account? Read Fastnet Force 10.
The mono will capsize, then right itself, perhaps a number of times, and if
you're very lucky, you won't be killed or injured by the flying debris. If
you're unlucky, water will enter and the boat will right itself on the
bottom.

On the other hand, if a multi capsizes, it will likely stay capsized
providing a stable and likely livable place to await rescue.

No where have I seen anyone suggest that triggering an EPIRB is a first
action or even third option, but neither is it necessary to wait until the
situation is unsalvagable to trigger it. When you say, "they didn't have
much choice," you imply that they had a choice at all. It's more likely
that they were swept overboard before being able to get to it or below.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high
gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a
harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



A harness isn't necessarily dependent upon having a rig that standing,
although you have a good possibility of being killed by a falling rig, one
that's sweeping the boat as it goes.

Are you saying one crew was inside? That hasn't been published as far as I
know. Still, having it in a closed locker with the situation clearly
deteriorating wouldn't be right either. It should be handy. I do agree that
being in communication is a very, very good idea... if possible of course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

I have been a catamaran sailor for years and have come this conclusion:
a major different between monohulls and catamarans is the most sable
position for a catamaran is upside down on the surface, the most sable
position for a monohull is right side up on the bottom. I'll take
the cat.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

sherwindu wrote:
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

There is a bit of a difference - an analysis after the fact, plus the
obvious empirical evidence, shows that the claims of "unsinkable" for
the Titanic were unfounded. Although not common, there is plenty of
evidence that flipped cats don't sink. And there is plenty of
evidence that cats have survived structural damage that would sink a
monohull in minutes.


I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging to
continue sailing.

You're making a huge assumption that the boat is still floating.

We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your first thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't have much
of a choice.

Actually, anyone who had stayed below quite probably would be still be
alive, whereas anyone who was on deck would have had a serious problem
even on a monohull.




Sherwin D.

Jeff wrote:

sherwindu wrote:
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

You're using the Titanic as an example of why monohulls are safer than
multis? That's a pretty convincing argument.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message ...
"Bob" wrote in message ups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



A harness isn't necessarily dependent upon having a rig that standing, although you have a good possibility of being killed by a
falling rig, one that's sweeping the boat as it goes.

Are you saying one crew was inside? That hasn't been published as far as I know. Still, having it in a closed locker with the
situation clearly deteriorating wouldn't be right either. It should be handy. I do agree that being in communication is a very,
very good idea... if possible of course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


I don't get it either about the erb being secured in a locker. If I thought
things were getting bad, I would be holding that erb with my teeth if I had too.

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message ...
"sherwindu" wrote in message ...
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.


The logical choice is to pick the most survivable situation and to recognize when a situation is becoming untenable. I suggest
that you've never been in a washing machine-style situation, where everything (as a best case) is going round and round and
everything is flying. It's not a place you would want to stay for very long. Need a dramatic account? Read Fastnet Force 10. The
mono will capsize, then right itself, perhaps a number of times, and if you're very lucky, you won't be killed or injured by the
flying debris. If you're unlucky, water will enter and the boat will right itself on the bottom.

On the other hand, if a multi capsizes, it will likely stay capsized providing a stable and likely livable place to await rescue.

No where have I seen anyone suggest that triggering an EPIRB is a first action or even third option, but neither is it necessary
to wait until the situation is unsalvagable to trigger it. When you say, "they didn't have much choice," you imply that they had
a choice at all. It's more likely that they were swept overboard before being able to get to it or below.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


Is it not correct to have the EPIRB already on deck in a
self releasing holder? That is if it is not a personal EPIRB.

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Harbin Osteen wrote:

Is it not correct to have the EPIRB already on deck in a
self releasing holder? That is if it is not a personal EPIRB.


Not necessarily for a catamaran - The presumption is that if the boat
flips, and anyone is left on board, they would be able to take it out
of the locker and activate it. Having it on deck increases the chance
it would be damaged, lost, or inaccessible when needed.

The fact that it was found in a locker implies that the entire crew
was on deck when it flipped. Certainly (we can hope, at least) anyone
down below would have activated it even if they were trying to escape
or rescue the others. Since this was a professional delivery team we
have to assumed they all knew where the gear was, and had discussed
various emergency scenarios.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

more info:
http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicL...#anchor1085433

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

119 days in capsized trimaran Rose Noelle.

After four months adrift in the South Pacific in 1989, the survivors were in such relatively good health that at first their story
was disbelieved. Though upside down and half-submerged, their boat was well made. Its captain, John Glennie, a shrewd old salt, and
his three companions--including Nalepka, an Outward Bound guide and the sole American--had originally set out from New Zealand for
Tonga, and after capsizing they made living quarters in a compartment in the hull the size of a double bed with 18 inches of head-
room.

Here is a link to some audio:
http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?pid=3277

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Harbin Osteen wrote:

Is it not correct to have the EPIRB already on deck in a
self releasing holder? That is if it is not a personal EPIRB.


Not necessarily for a catamaran - The presumption is that if the boat
flips, and anyone is left on board, they would be able to take it out of
the locker and activate it. Having it on deck increases the chance it
would be damaged, lost, or inaccessible when needed.

The fact that it was found in a locker implies that the entire crew was on
deck when it flipped. Certainly (we can hope, at least) anyone down below
would have activated it even if they were trying to escape or rescue the
others. Since this was a professional delivery team we have to assumed
they all knew where the gear was, and had discussed various emergency
scenarios.


Hmmm... I would think it should not be on deck, but rather it should be
readily accessible from the cockpit... same with monohulls... near the
companionway. Why would I want it in a distant locker?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
more info:
http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicL...#anchor1085433


Whew.. missed that article... one crew alive after the capsize. I wonder why
that person was above deck (err... below, whatever) in such weather. The
inside must surely have been safer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Harbin Osteen" wrote in message
...
119 days in capsized trimaran Rose Noelle.

After four months adrift in the South Pacific in 1989, the survivors were
in such relatively good health that at first their story was disbelieved.
Though upside down and half-submerged, their boat was well made. Its
captain, John Glennie, a shrewd old salt, and his three
companions--including Nalepka, an Outward Bound guide and the sole
American--had originally set out from New Zealand for Tonga, and after
capsizing they made living quarters in a compartment in the hull the size
of a double bed with 18 inches of head- room.

Here is a link to some audio:
http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?pid=3277

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?


Thanks for the link.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Harbin Osteen" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of
the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high
gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a
harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's
no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



A harness isn't necessarily dependent upon having a rig that standing,
although you have a good possibility of being killed by a falling rig,
one that's sweeping the boat as it goes.

Are you saying one crew was inside? That hasn't been published as far as
I know. Still, having it in a closed locker with the situation clearly
deteriorating wouldn't be right either. It should be handy. I do agree
that being in communication is a very, very good idea... if possible of
course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


I don't get it either about the erb being secured in a locker. If I
thought
things were getting bad, I would be holding that erb with my teeth if I
had too.

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?


Yep... I'd have it on me at that point...


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 06:48:39 -0800, Harbin Osteen wrote:

I don't get it either about the erb being secured in a locker. If I
thought things were getting bad, I would be holding that erb with my
teeth if I had too.

They might not have thought things were that bad, until suddenly they were
capsized.

Matt O.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message
g...
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 06:48:39 -0800, Harbin Osteen wrote:

I don't get it either about the erb being secured in a locker. If I
thought things were getting bad, I would be holding that erb with my
teeth if I had too.

They might not have thought things were that bad, until suddenly they were
capsized.

Matt O.


Maybe, but I kind of doubt it... it was pretty extreme conditions... well, I
guess we may never know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

A modern blue water trimaran might well have livable space while inverted,
but I'm not confident of finding any inside my cat should she flip, as awash
as she would be.
Still, it would be better awash than deep and getting deeper.


"Harbin Osteen" wrote in message
...
119 days in capsized trimaran Rose Noelle.

After four months adrift in the South Pacific in 1989, the survivors were
in such relatively good health that at first their story was disbelieved.
Though upside down and half-submerged, their boat was well made. Its
captain, John Glennie, a shrewd old salt, and his three
companions--including Nalepka, an Outward Bound guide and the sole
American--had originally set out from New Zealand for Tonga, and after
capsizing they made living quarters in a compartment in the hull the size
of a double bed with 18 inches of head- room.

Here is a link to some audio:
http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?pid=3277

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

The following is the actual NOAA weather forecast for the storm. I
clipped this the night of the strom to email to some friends.

- - - - - - - - -

COASTAL WATERS FORECAST
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE PORTLAND OREGON
903 PM PST THU DEC 14 2006

COASTAL WATERS FROM CAPE SHOALWATER WASHINGTON TO FLORENCE OREGON
AND WESTWARD 60 NM

STORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 4 AM PST FRIDAY

TONIGHT
S WIND 45 TO 55 KT WITH GUSTS TO 70 KT... VEERING TO
SW 45 TO 50 KT WITH GUSTS TO 60 KT AFTER MIDNIGHT. COMBINED
SEAS 38 FT DOMINANT PERIOD 12 SECONDS. SHOWERS AND SCATTERED
TSTMS.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
..OFFSHORE WATERS FORECAST 830 PM PST THU DEC 14 2006

WASHINGTON AND OREGON WATERS FROM 60 NM TO 250 NM OFFSHORE.
CAPE FLATTERY TO CAPE LOOKOUT

HURRICANE FORCE WIND WARNING

OVERNIGHT
W TO NW WINDS 45 TO 55 KT...EXCEPT TO 65 KT OVER
THE W PORTION EARLY. SEAS 14 TO 21 FT BUILDING TO 24 TO 35
FT...HIGHEST SE. SCATTERED SHOWERS...BECOMING ISOLATED LATE.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Of the 35 or so comments thus far, no one has questioned why this boat
was in the strom to begin with. Even if the boat did not have SSB or a
SAT phone to check in with someone, it would have had to have a VHF
radio and they clearly would have heard the constant NOAA Weather
forecasts stating that HURRICANE FORCE WINDS were expected, with 38
foot seas.

This is not a case of them being caught in a strom 3000 miles out to
sea. They were hugging the coast and could have ducked into any number
of ports. All I can think of is that they thought they could tough it
out, which I would think is a bad assumption given that you have no
exerience with how that boat handles, or, they waited too long to head
for cover and by then the coast guard had closed the entrances to the
harbors because the waves were already breaking on the bars. Thus
leaving them stuck out in the open.

Last fall I traveled down that same stretch, and it only took about a
10 foot swell to close all of the bar entrances, to non-comercial
vessels under 50 feet in length.

-Mark
"Calpurnia"
www.goreads.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

And I answer you that I have done extensive ocean cruising with my 22 foot
sailboat, including a winter passage through the Windward Passage from Jamaica
to
Florida. It was no picnic, so I know what rough weather sailing is. You can
add to
that sailing my boat from Greece to Israel and back fighting the strong Meltimi
winds. I think I have seen enough bad weather.

It does depend on your point of view. I like to work myself out of trouble, and
not
depend on some electronic signal to send the cavalry over the next hill to
rescue me.
I think with 35 years of cruising experience, I have seen quite a few bad
storms. I
never capsized, but I am not a racer who pushes their boat to the maximum. When

the weather gets bad, I shorten sail, sometimes heave-to, and/or put out a sea
anchor. Problem is that many sailors think their multihulls cannot flip over,
and that's
when they get into trouble.

Sherwin D.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the
concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never
sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will
go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging
to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your
first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a
grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't
have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.

The logical choice is to pick the most survivable situation and to recognize
when a situation is becoming untenable. I suggest that you've never been in
a washing machine-style situation, where everything (as a best case) is
going round and round and everything is flying. It's not a place you would
want to stay for very long. Need a dramatic account? Read Fastnet Force 10.
The mono will capsize, then right itself, perhaps a number of times, and if
you're very lucky, you won't be killed or injured by the flying debris. If
you're unlucky, water will enter and the boat will right itself on the
bottom.

On the other hand, if a multi capsizes, it will likely stay capsized
providing a stable and likely livable place to await rescue.

No where have I seen anyone suggest that triggering an EPIRB is a first
action or even third option, but neither is it necessary to wait until the
situation is unsalvagable to trigger it. When you say, "they didn't have
much choice," you imply that they had a choice at all. It's more likely
that they were swept overboard before being able to get to it or below.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

It's a well established fact that most roll overs of a monohull do not result in
the boat
sinking. I would rather take my chances with a roll over than be helplessly
trapped
upside down.

Makes me also wonder, what did we do before we had EPIRBS? I guess earlier
sailors were better prepared to take care of themselves.

Sherwin D.

" wrote:

I have been a catamaran sailor for years and have come this conclusion:
a major different between monohulls and catamarans is the most sable
position for a catamaran is upside down on the surface, the most sable
position for a monohull is right side up on the bottom. I'll take
the cat.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

Sounds like great fun.

Harbin Osteen wrote:

119 days in capsized trimaran Rose Noelle.

After four months adrift in the South Pacific in 1989, the survivors were in such relatively good health that at first their story
was disbelieved. Though upside down and half-submerged, their boat was well made. Its captain, John Glennie, a shrewd old salt, and
his three companions--including Nalepka, an Outward Bound guide and the sole American--had originally set out from New Zealand for
Tonga, and after capsizing they made living quarters in a compartment in the hull the size of a double bed with 18 inches of head-
room.

Here is a link to some audio:
http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?pid=3277

--

SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

This is not a case of them being caught in a strom 3000 miles out to
sea. They were hugging the coast and could have ducked into any number
of ports. All I can think of is that they thought they could tough it
out, which I would think is a bad assumption given that you have no
exerience with how that boat handles, or, they waited too long to head
for cover and by then the coast guard had closed the entrances to the
harbors because the waves were already breaking on the bars. Thus
leaving them stuck out in the open.

Last fall I traveled down that same stretch, and it only took about a
10 foot swell to close all of the bar entrances, to non-comercial
vessels under 50 feet in length.

-Mark
Mark R. wrote:
The following is the actual NOAA weather forecast for the storm. I
clipped this the night of the strom to email to some friends.

WASHINGTON AND OREGON WATERS FROM 60 NM TO 250 NM OFFSHORE.
CAPE FLATTERY TO CAPE LOOKOUT

HURRICANE FORCE WIND WARNING

Of the 35 or so comments thus far, no one has questioned why this boat
was in the strom to begin with.

Its not polite to critize the dead. There are parents, sisters,
lovedones listening and so to those sitting at Davy Jones' table.


Even if the boat did not have SSB or a
SAT phone to check in with someone, it would have had to have a VHF
radio and they clearly would have heard the constant NOAA Weather
forecasts stating that HURRICANE FORCE WINDS were expected, with 38
foot seas.

Yes, and if you read the Ocean Prediction Center weather maps there is
a little boax that says those estimates are ONLY the upper 1/3 mean
wave higth. In other words, there's gonna be a lot more and a lot
bigger than the predicted wave size.

NOw add to that weather advisory... 1) greater wave size because of
shallow areas around headlands (cape balanco) and 2) increased wind
speed at the headlands. 1+2= Bodies not recovered.


Last fall I traveled down that same stretch, and it only took about a
10 foot swell to close all of the bar entrances, to non-comercial
vessels under 50 feet in length.

Well that depends. Astoria, Newport, Coos Bay are the "good bars" Then
ya have the little ones that are never dredged any more because all the
Dredge money goes to the Texas and southern ports. Gee I wonder why?
Sure no need to dredge all those "blue state" channels found in WA OR
CA.

A few months ago some body here posted a troll. It went somethin like
this:
"...I need advice. Im going to sail a new to me boat north from SF to
Seattle in NOvember. I know Im late but still got to go. Im new to
sailing...etc."

Looks like that troll was actually a tragic forecast.

Take it how you want. While I type this Im siting in a motel on the
south side to the Yaquina Bay bridge.Just opend a botttle of Columbia
Crest Merlot I got from Safeway. Under seven bucks. Good deal. But back
to fallin mariners. My house got a widow blown out when that storm went
threw. I think it gusted to 106 mph here.

Ive seen the same thing happen EVER year on this coast. The first time
i was a junior at NHS. My friend larry and i wnt down to Waldport to
check out the sail boat that got blown on the beach. A 40 year old
story and remarkable the same: 60 yo couple retire and sell everything.
Get a nice 32-34" steal boat and head noth form southern cal. They
always had a dream to sail the world said the obituary. Well they hit a
storm about Cape Blanco, got sick, got beat up. The boat was half
sanded in when we got there. i think we were the first there, or at
least there were no other foot prins on the sand. The ports were 8" or
so round and blown in. one was shattered. The salon was full of sand. A
few of their personal things were floating around inside. A coat, a
book, a dream.

And dont even get me started with these OUPV guys. they kill more
coastal visitors every year than I have time to descibe. Lesson
learned? Dont get stuck between a rock and a hard spot.

I wish that people would start reading the Coast Pilot or a crusing
guide.
Bob


-Mark
"Calpurnia"
www.goreads.com
"Calpurnia"
www.goreads.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

One problem with catamarans is there are few warnings that they are about to
capsize. You may notice one of the hulls lifting out of the water, but by that
time,
it may be too late to correct anything. A monohull will heel progressively,
giving you
a little more time to shorten sail, etc.

Sherwin D.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and
harder
to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable
state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright.
A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside
down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.



Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.


Well, that's what actually didn't happen. The cat didn't sink did it? Or,
are the pictures faked?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

sherwindu wrote:
It's a well established fact that most roll overs of a monohull do not result in
the boat
sinking. I would rather take my chances with a roll over than be helplessly
trapped
upside down.

Makes me also wonder, what did we do before we had EPIRBS? I guess earlier
sailors were better prepared to take care of themselves.

Sherwin D.


My guess would be that a lot more of those sailors were lost at sea.

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
And I answer you that I have done extensive ocean cruising with my 22 foot
sailboat, including a winter passage through the Windward Passage from
Jamaica
to
Florida. It was no picnic, so I know what rough weather sailing is. You
can
add to
that sailing my boat from Greece to Israel and back fighting the strong
Meltimi
winds. I think I have seen enough bad weather.

It does depend on your point of view. I like to work myself out of
trouble, and
not
depend on some electronic signal to send the cavalry over the next hill to
rescue me.
I think with 35 years of cruising experience, I have seen quite a few bad
storms. I
never capsized, but I am not a racer who pushes their boat to the maximum.
When

the weather gets bad, I shorten sail, sometimes heave-to, and/or put out a
sea
anchor. Problem is that many sailors think their multihulls cannot flip
over,
and that's
when they get into trouble.

Sherwin D.

This isn't demonstrated by your post. What is demonstrated is lack of
understand about safety, or rather single-mindedness about what safety
means, which is almost as bad.

We all "like to work ..ourselves... out of trouble and not depend on some
electronic signal... blah, blah." But understanding that you have that
device should you not be able to "work it out" is the point.

And, no. What multihull sailors know is that their boats can't sink. Big
difference.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the
concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never
sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely
will
go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough
rigging
to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your
first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a
grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't
have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.

The logical choice is to pick the most survivable situation and to
recognize
when a situation is becoming untenable. I suggest that you've never been
in
a washing machine-style situation, where everything (as a best case) is
going round and round and everything is flying. It's not a place you
would
want to stay for very long. Need a dramatic account? Read Fastnet Force
10.
The mono will capsize, then right itself, perhaps a number of times, and
if
you're very lucky, you won't be killed or injured by the flying debris.
If
you're unlucky, water will enter and the boat will right itself on the
bottom.

On the other hand, if a multi capsizes, it will likely stay capsized
providing a stable and likely livable place to await rescue.

No where have I seen anyone suggest that triggering an EPIRB is a first
action or even third option, but neither is it necessary to wait until
the
situation is unsalvagable to trigger it. When you say, "they didn't have
much choice," you imply that they had a choice at all. It's more likely
that they were swept overboard before being able to get to it or below.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cat capsize off oregon coast
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
sherwindu wrote:
It's a well established fact that most roll overs of a monohull do not
result in
the boat
sinking. I would rather take my chances with a roll over than be
helplessly
trapped
upside down.

Makes me also wonder, what did we do before we had EPIRBS? I guess
earlier
sailors were better prepared to take care of themselves.

Sherwin D.


My guess would be that a lot more of those sailors were lost at sea.


Exactly.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com