"Harbin Osteen" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Gordon wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GHUN14OU18.DTL

Looks like they got caught in that big storm.
Gordon

The article referenced above had the following comment"

"Double-hulled catamaran sailboats are fast and lightweight -- and
harder to
capsize than some single-hull sloops. "

What they should have added is that single hull boats have one stable
state,
right side
up. Even when they capsize, the heavy keel will bring it back upright.
A
catamaran,
on the other hand, is stable in two configurations, upright and upside
down.
Once
they flip, they almost never right themselves.

Sherwin D.




Yeah, possibly on the bottom. Whereas the catamaran won't sink.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Yep, don't leave the boat until the boat leaves you. I would feel safer in
a multihull.

--

SeeYaa Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?


Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.
However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke. Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I've thought about this a lot, especially since a number of my friends
thought it might have been my cat - we are planning to sail from
Trinidad to Mexico this spring.

I realize that in the past I've felt very safe in the cockpit of my
catamaran, enough not to require my crew or myself to use a harness. I
realize this is probably not as precautious an attitude as I'd thought,
at least not at night or during anything other than great weather.

While we always have jack lines rigged up for going outside the
coamings, I think a line running abeam just below the bimini hard top
might not be a bad idea at all.

Your hypothesis of what might have happened, and your advice about
staying inside, hove to, etc. seem spot on to me. Also, an SSB or HAM
radio, or maybe a satellite phone would have been an excellent option.

I was once in a very bad storm off Magdelina Bay, the worst I've ever
seen. I radioed a friend, gave him my coordinates and checked back in
every hour. Nothing bad happened, but knowing there was someone on land
watching for me helped the crew's (and my) piece of mind immensely. Had
we had problems, at least someone would have known our position and last
status.

Cheers,

Robb

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.
However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke. Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

AMPowers wrote:


I realize that in the past I've felt very safe in the cockpit of my
catamaran, enough not to require my crew or myself to use a harness.

Maybe okay if weatther is flat and have a designated LO on deck.


Your hypothesis of what might have happened, and your advice about
staying inside, hove to, etc. seem spot on to me.

The last log was 60 miles off Cape Blanco, Or at 3 AM. My wife spent
her early years there because her granny lived on Cape Blanco Road. My
brother in law is heading to Port Orford ( just south of Cape B) for a
friends service. A 45' commercial craber was trying to get in. Yes, 45'
is pretty samll to crab in the winte around here. Most are atleast 60'
+ full on steel draggers that gear up for crab instead. Bar was
breaking and the boat rolled with a deck load of dungie pots: 4 lost.
Lets see, one week with two boats lost and 7 dead.

And ya wonder why its called the Grave Yard of the Pacific.

10 miles is too close for those conditions. Too shallow. Seas break.
boats flip. At cape blance, as with other capes adn headlands ya
always got a shallow that sticks miles out plus the wind gets pilled up
at the head lands and increases teh velocity. Somthing about a ventury
effect.

Bad advice to get close. Mybe if youre a 180' OSV and can just run the
bow up in the mud.
Over here, with 90 knot winds pushing your boat on an inceasingly
shallow area combined with rocks... you are screwed. Run out as fast as
possble. Belive me its easy to run your boat in too clsoe and not even
know it til its too late.

I was once in a very bad storm off Magdelina Bay, the worst I've ever
seen.

If you are here writing about it, most likely it was not that bad.


Cheers,

Robb

Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.

Jeff wrote:

sherwindu wrote:
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

You're using the Titanic as an example of why monohulls are safer than
multis? That's a pretty convincing argument.

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the
concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never
sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will
go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging
to
continue
sailing. We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your
first
thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a
grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't
have much

of a choice.

Sherwin D.


The logical choice is to pick the most survivable situation and to recognize
when a situation is becoming untenable. I suggest that you've never been in
a washing machine-style situation, where everything (as a best case) is
going round and round and everything is flying. It's not a place you would
want to stay for very long. Need a dramatic account? Read Fastnet Force 10.
The mono will capsize, then right itself, perhaps a number of times, and if
you're very lucky, you won't be killed or injured by the flying debris. If
you're unlucky, water will enter and the boat will right itself on the
bottom.

On the other hand, if a multi capsizes, it will likely stay capsized
providing a stable and likely livable place to await rescue.

No where have I seen anyone suggest that triggering an EPIRB is a first
action or even third option, but neither is it necessary to wait until the
situation is unsalvagable to trigger it. When you say, "they didn't have
much choice," you imply that they had a choice at all. It's more likely
that they were swept overboard before being able to get to it or below.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high
gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a
harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



A harness isn't necessarily dependent upon having a rig that standing,
although you have a good possibility of being killed by a falling rig, one
that's sweeping the boat as it goes.

Are you saying one crew was inside? That hasn't been published as far as I
know. Still, having it in a closed locker with the situation clearly
deteriorating wouldn't be right either. It should be handy. I do agree that
being in communication is a very, very good idea... if possible of course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I have been a catamaran sailor for years and have come this conclusion:
a major different between monohulls and catamarans is the most sable
position for a catamaran is upside down on the surface, the most sable
position for a monohull is right side up on the bottom. I'll take
the cat.

sherwindu wrote:
Gee, do I have to spell everything out! My comment was directed to the concept
that boats are unsinkable, period. They said the Titanic could never sink. Get
the
analogy? I guess not.

There is a bit of a difference - an analysis after the fact, plus the
obvious empirical evidence, shows that the claims of "unsinkable" for
the Titanic were unfounded. Although not common, there is plenty of
evidence that flipped cats don't sink. And there is plenty of
evidence that cats have survived structural damage that would sink a
monohull in minutes.


I personally would rather take my chances on a boat that most likely will go
back
to an upright position where I have a chance of salvaging enough rigging to
continue sailing.

You're making a huge assumption that the boat is still floating.

We are slaves to our EPIRB's to get us out of trouble. Your first thought
when in trouble at sea is how can I recover a bad situation, not make a grab for
the
EPIRB. Of course, in the case of an upsidedown multihull, they didn't have much
of a choice.

Actually, anyone who had stayed below quite probably would be still be
alive, whereas anyone who was on deck would have had a serious problem
even on a monohull.




Sherwin D.

Jeff wrote:

sherwindu wrote:
Yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic.

You're using the Titanic as an example of why monohulls are safer than
multis? That's a pretty convincing argument.

"Capt. JG" wrote in message ...
"Bob" wrote in message ups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
Obviously, I don't know better than anyone else what actually happened.

Me too........

However, my guess is that they were on deck trying to get control of the
situation (as most of us would try to do), got hit by a big wave/high gust
combination, and went over the side either because they didn't use a harness
or the harness broke.

Swept clean.

Counter intuitive though it might have been, they were
safer below, hove to as best as they could manage.

And if flipped, still floating it no communication with the sea.


I also don't understand why they didn't activate their EPIRB. There's no
requirement that the boat be sinking to do so.

One crew inside. Why? maybe resting. maybe too sick to be on deck,
maybe navigator/radio. Flipped, hit head. Noody on deck any more and
only one left not able inside. Personally I like to establish a radio
check-in on the hour. Gives the USCG kid somthing to do and log. No
contact, sooner to start the search. Every minuet counts when there is
only :45 on the exposure clock. But who knows.

I'm betting we'll never know with certainty what happened.

Dead men tell no tales.


ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



A harness isn't necessarily dependent upon having a rig that standing, although you have a good possibility of being killed by a
falling rig, one that's sweeping the boat as it goes.

Are you saying one crew was inside? That hasn't been published as far as I know. Still, having it in a closed locker with the
situation clearly deteriorating wouldn't be right either. It should be handy. I do agree that being in communication is a very,
very good idea... if possible of course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


I don't get it either about the erb being secured in a locker. If I thought
things were getting bad, I would be holding that erb with my teeth if I had too.

--

SeeYaa Harbin Osteen KG6URO

When American Citizens with dual citizenship pledges allegiance
to the flag, to which flag do they pledge allegiance too?

-