|
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I
went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction? Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender, but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands? Thanks. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:33:16 -0600, "BarelyAwake"
wrote: I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction? Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender, but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands? Thanks. I use ascendes *and* a bosun's chair. I attach the chair to the upper ascender and it goes up with me. You don't need descenders. You can use the ascender to descend. Descending with ascenders is slow and just about as difficult as ascending. Descenders make it easier and faster. Descenders are for where you're going to descend a long way, much longer than the height of the average mast. The only way I can see descenders being worth it is if you have to go up with the boat rocking in a seaway. But in those conditions, I would never use a single rope with ascenders anyway. For that, you want mast steps or something similar where you can concentrate on holding on to the mast instead of operating the ascenders. I use a length 1/2" mountain climbing rope that I got at REI, haul it up with a halyard and use Petzl ascenders with a bosun's chair. Attach the upper ascender to the chair, and a loop for your feet to the lower ascender. And you can sit down while climbing and when you get to where you want to be. Steve |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
"BarelyAwake" wrote in message ... I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction? Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender, but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands? Thanks. Ascendeurs are intended for ascent rather than descent, because of the way the locking cam is designed. To slide the device on ascent, you release pressure/load on the device, then slide it up the rope, then reinstating the load automatically locks the cam. On descent, the operator must physically click the cam to unlock, slide the device down, then unclick the cam to allow it to lock again once load is placed upon it. Clearly, descent is possible, but it is prone to operator error, much, much more so than ascent. It is important to recognise that use of ascendeurs is liable to operator error, going up or down. For that reason, an additional rope to hold the operator in case of a slip of ascendeur(s), or other failure of gear, is vital in my opinion. I sail singlehanded and want the safest possible arrangement for going aloft, alone. I use a pair of ascendeurs, each on separate halyards. A third rope, usually my climbing rope, is my backup: it passes through a Petzl Grigri clipped to my harness. This is a cunning device that allows the rope to pass easily one way, but locks the instant a load is placed on it.As I go up, the rope passes through it, if I fall, or want to take a rest, placing my weight on the device locks it. When I want to come down, I can use it as a descendeur.....it has a lever which allows controlled release of the rope. If the operator should let go of the release lever, the Grigri locks up again. A few carabiners are required to make the whole arrangement work properly. A couple of my single handed mates have seen this arrangement, and have promptly got their own. Bosun's chairs have been around for a long while, however, as a climber, I cringe when I see them being used alone to support the operator. I like to see a backup rope, I like to see an arrangement where the operator cannot fall backwards out of the chair and slip right out of it. If the operator is being winched up by a deckhand, I like to see an arrangement whereby the operator can rescue himself should the deckhand walk off and leave him, or whatever. As to brands, I think it comes to personal choice. I have used a few, perhaps the Kong fits my big hands a bit better. Whatever setup you go for, I recommend that you get an experienced climber to run his/her eyes over it, if at all possible. Lee Martin |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as
a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
BarelyAwake wrote: Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. Having climbed miles of rope and descended the same (during caving) and also climbed my mast quite a few times, I offer the following. You do not want a descender, the probability of making a mistake in going from ascending to descending is too great. You CAN use ascenders to descend but as someone else pointed, they are spring loaded so that you must reach down and hold the cam open while you push it down. You also have to make sure you dont push it too far down. There is nothing like trying to put your weight on a sling that is too far down. Instead, I suggest the use of Prusik knots. They are free and work very well. To ascend, you slide the knot up and it will rarely slide back down unless you "break" the knot first. When you "break" the knot to descend, they grab quickly when you put your weight on them. I suggest the use of three knots instead of two. You should have two prusiks on your chair for safety. This is true even when using mechanical ascenders. With only two ascenders, if your chair ascender fails, you can ebd up hanging by your heels, uncomfortable and fatal if you have nobody to let you down. Any site about vertical caving can give you pointers about making your own prusiks and ascender safety. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use a back-up rope (the other halyard). Your halyard has been there for probably years going over that sheave. Do you really want to trust your life only to it? |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
"Frogwatch" wrote in message oups.com... Instead, I suggest the use of Prusik knots. They are free and work very well. I like the free part. I haven't heard of Prusik knots. I will certainly check them out. Your halyard has been there for probably years going over that sheave. Do you really want to trust your life only to it? I agree. I would not entrust my life to a 10 year old halyard. I am replacing all the lines before I make the first ascent, and I do have an assistant on the deck to assist me. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
Frogwatch wrote: ...
Instead, I suggest the use of Prusik knots. They are free and work very well. ... I tried prusiks once but they seemed to take a lot of effort to ascend and they are grippy up and down so I couldn't get one to follow me up a halyard as a back-up the way I can with a cam device. I suspect there is some technique that I didn't grok. My current rig for going up the mast unassisted is a 3 part tackle with a ratchet block (ratchet with bail at the bottom and fiddle at the top tail comes down from the mast head). The ratchet really makes it easy to rest and I find ascending easier and quicker than with cam devices or prusiks. I have a cam that I attach to a spare halyard set up as a static line to catch me if I faint or something... Does rigging the tackle like this give you a 6:1 purchase __as you ascend__? I think it does, but have had trouble convincing the crowd around here. -- Tom. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
"BarelyAwake" wrote in
: I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. Screw that! The Bosun's Chair needs to be attached to the powered anchor windlass for us "lazy, middle-aged man like me"! I press this button, he goes up. I press this button he comes down. I suppose I could mark one "Ascender" and the other "Decender", saving several thousand dollars on custom mountain climbing equipment in the process....(c; It can even lift my heavy ass, right to the top, without a sweat! Larry -- Why is it, in any city, all traffic lights act as if they have rotary timers in them, like they did in 1955, and are all set to create maximum inconvenience and block traffic movement, entirely? |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
Larry wrote: "BarelyAwake" wrote in : I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. Screw that! The Bosun's Chair needs to be attached to the powered anchor windlass for us "lazy, middle-aged man like me"! I press this button, he goes up. I press this button he comes down. I suppose I could mark one "Ascender" and the other "Decender", saving several thousand dollars on custom mountain climbing equipment in the process....(c; It can even lift my heavy ass, right to the top, without a sweat! Larry -- Why is it, in any city, all traffic lights act as if they have rotary timers in them, like they did in 1955, and are all set to create maximum inconvenience and block traffic movement, entirely? Prusiks do not "follow" you as you go up, they must be "broken" and then pushed up. Likewise on the way back down. This does require some thought but you should be thinking hard when on rope. If you aint scared you are foolish. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
Larry wrote:
snip... It can even lift my heavy ass, right to the top, without a sweat! Larry Now that is impressive! :-) |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
On 11 Dec 2006 09:57:20 -0800, "
wrote: Does rigging the tackle like this give you a 6:1 purchase __as you ascend__? I think it does, but have had trouble convincing the crowd around here. Sounds like 4:1 to me. Just count the number of lines supporting the load, that is the purchase ratio. The tail counts as 1 in this case. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:20:54 -0600, "BarelyAwake"
wrote: Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. It works for a lazy, middle-aged man like me. Just stand up in the loop and raise the upper ascender with the bosun's chair attached to highest height where you can still sit down. Then sit and raise the lower ascender with the loop maybe a foot (if you're lazy) or two (if you're in a hurry) ... go at your own rate. Then stand up in the raised loop and raise the chair again. Repeat as often as necessary. Reverse to descend. I've found that since I have to raise the ascender slightly to get it to unlock while descending, I have to make more frequent and smaller moves on the way down. But I still wouldn't use a descender. Of course I'd rather have someone winch me up. But I frequently work on a boat alone and have to make due with what I have. I've used the same setup for climbing trees as well. Steve |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
Steve inscribed in red ink for all to know:
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:20:54 -0600, "BarelyAwake" wrote: Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. It works for a lazy, middle-aged man like me. Just stand up in the loop and raise the upper ascender with the bosun's chair attached to highest height where you can still sit down. Then sit and raise the lower ascender with the loop maybe a foot (if you're lazy) or two (if you're in a hurry) ... go at your own rate. Then stand up in the raised loop and raise the chair again. Repeat as often as necessary. Reverse to descend. I've found that since I have to raise the ascender slightly to get it to unlock while descending, I have to make more frequent and smaller moves on the way down. But I still wouldn't use a descender. Of course I'd rather have someone winch me up. But I frequently work on a boat alone and have to make due with what I have. I've used the same setup for climbing trees as well. Steve How do you get the line up in the tree to start with? bob s/v Eolian Seattle |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
RW Salnick wrote:
:Steve inscribed in red ink for all to know: : On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:20:54 -0600, "BarelyAwake" : wrote: : : :Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as :a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one :line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there :is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a :backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a :primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair :to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a :great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a :try. : : : It works for a lazy, middle-aged man like me. Just stand up in the : loop and raise the upper ascender with the bosun's chair attached to : highest height where you can still sit down. Then sit and raise the : lower ascender with the loop maybe a foot (if you're lazy) or two (if : you're in a hurry) ... go at your own rate. Then stand up in the : raised loop and raise the chair again. Repeat as often as necessary. : Reverse to descend. I've found that since I have to raise the : ascender slightly to get it to unlock while descending, I have to make : more frequent and smaller moves on the way down. But I still wouldn't : use a descender. : : Of course I'd rather have someone winch me up. But I frequently work : on a boat alone and have to make due with what I have. : : I've used the same setup for climbing trees as well. : : Steve :How do you get the line up in the tree to start with? Tie it to a squirel. Duh. The normal way is to throw a line over a branch, pulling a heavier line with that if required. Tall trees can be done in a series of pitches, wher you first climb to one branch, and then throw a rope to the next branch and climb there. There are also fairly safe ways to climb a tree without a top rope. The first guy up attaches to top rope, others follow by climbing that rope. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:30:20 -0800, RW Salnick
wrote: Steve inscribed in red ink for all to know: On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:20:54 -0600, "BarelyAwake" wrote: Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a try. It works for a lazy, middle-aged man like me. Just stand up in the loop and raise the upper ascender with the bosun's chair attached to highest height where you can still sit down. Then sit and raise the lower ascender with the loop maybe a foot (if you're lazy) or two (if you're in a hurry) ... go at your own rate. Then stand up in the raised loop and raise the chair again. Repeat as often as necessary. Reverse to descend. I've found that since I have to raise the ascender slightly to get it to unlock while descending, I have to make more frequent and smaller moves on the way down. But I still wouldn't use a descender. Of course I'd rather have someone winch me up. But I frequently work on a boat alone and have to make due with what I have. I've used the same setup for climbing trees as well. Steve How do you get the line up in the tree to start with? Throw a weighted end a over a branch then let it fall all the way down and tie it off to something sturdy, like another nearby tree. I don't feel like hanging from a grappling hook. And I test it with some really good jumps on the rope before climbing. Also check the rope for chafing before using it. Steve |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
Don White wrote in news:OEjfh.31607$cz.472034
@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca: Larry wrote: snip... It can even lift my heavy ass, right to the top, without a sweat! Larry Now that is impressive! :-) The neighbors can't figure out why it doesn't pitchpole with me on top.... (c; Larry -- Why is it, in any city, all traffic lights act as if they have rotary timers in them, like they did in 1955, and are all set to create maximum inconvenience and block traffic movement, entirely? |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
RW Salnick wrote:
How do you get the line up in the tree to start with? I do something like this to put long wire antennas up into trees for my amateur radio. I use 40lb test spider wire (fishing line, walmart) which I spool off on to the ground. Then I tie a metal nut (hardware store) to the end of it and fire it up into a high tree with a slingshot. The nut will fly as high as you dare, arc over, and come back to the ground. Then I tie my wire antenna to the nut and pull it up into the tree. You could do the same thing with climbing rope. Works great so long as you do not get crazy and fire the line up too high over a bunch of trees at once, which is easy to do with a slingshot. This all works even better if you have the fishling line on an actual reel like you use on a fishing pole because the line does not have any chance of getting tangled up like it can when spooling it out on the ground. It is also easier to reel in your line after you have attached the antenna to the end instead of winding it back on to the spool. But I do not like to carry that reel while camping, and I am very careful when spooling the line out on the ground that I do not tangle it, so I do not use a reel. |
Ascender/Descender instead of bosun's chair
purple_stars inscribed in red ink for all to know:
RW Salnick wrote: How do you get the line up in the tree to start with? I do something like this to put long wire antennas up into trees for my amateur radio. I use 40lb test spider wire (fishing line, walmart) which I spool off on to the ground. Then I tie a metal nut (hardware store) to the end of it and fire it up into a high tree with a slingshot. The nut will fly as high as you dare, arc over, and come back to the ground. Then I tie my wire antenna to the nut and pull it up into the tree. You could do the same thing with climbing rope. Works great so long as you do not get crazy and fire the line up too high over a bunch of trees at once, which is easy to do with a slingshot. This all works even better if you have the fishling line on an actual reel like you use on a fishing pole because the line does not have any chance of getting tangled up like it can when spooling it out on the ground. It is also easier to reel in your line after you have attached the antenna to the end instead of winding it back on to the spool. But I do not like to carry that reel while camping, and I am very careful when spooling the line out on the ground that I do not tangle it, so I do not use a reel. That's great! Using an old/cheap spin casting reel loaded with light fishing line, and a slingshot. Thanks for the idea! bob s/v Eolian Seattle WA9BVE |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:07 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com