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Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
I'm going to replace the old wire main halyard winch, on my 35' sloop, with a
line winch. Just wondering if there is a need for a 2sp. winch, for halyard use only. Other 2sp. winches are available for lifting, hoisting aloft, etc. Thanks to all. |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
What is the relative cost difference and what if you break one of the other
winches? I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." "Ilv2sl" wrote in message ... I'm going to replace the old wire main halyard winch, on my 35' sloop, with a line winch. Just wondering if there is a need for a 2sp. winch, for halyard use only. Other 2sp. winches are available for lifting, hoisting aloft, etc. Thanks to all. |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Rick & Linda Bernard wrote:
... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch is too expensive." -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.tripod.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:28:24 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: Rick & Linda Bernard wrote: ... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch is too expensive." I've even heard, "Geez, this winch HANDLE is too expensive!" Usually right before it slips, bounces on the toerail on its way over the side....(c; Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Armond Perretta wrote: Rick & Linda Bernard wrote: ... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch is too expensive." Tell me about it!! While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can put on a winch handle? The "generally accepted" formula for determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the maximum force. With a 500 sq.ft. foretriangle that works out to 86:1. That is a $5,000 winch!!! A 64 cost about $3500 which is the limit of my buget but the handle force would be 48 lb. I'm thinking I may just head up a little, trim and fall off and save $3-4K. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
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Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:03:05 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote: While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can put on a winch handle? The "generally accepted" formula for determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the maximum force. With a 500 sq.ft. foretriangle that works out to 86:1. That is a $5,000 winch!!! A 64 cost about $3500 which is the limit of my buget but the handle force would be 48 lb. Actually, on most boats I've sailed on, this force depends on how much in-the-way the stupid cables the idiot boat manufacturers spent so much money putting DIRECTLY in the path of the revolving winch handle. I think they work very hard to make sure no winch handle over 6" has a clear, unobstructed turning circle without banging into "something". Maybe they're trying to make it hard for us to crank too hard on the cheap winch or the flimsy way they're mounted to the think fiberglass....?? I'm thinking I may just head up a little, trim and fall off and save $3-4K. :-) What?! Aren't all the lines SUPPOSED to creak ominously while you're cranking as hard as you can pull?....(c; Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Armond Perretta wrote: Rick & Linda Bernard wrote: ... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch is too expensive." While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can put on a winch handle? The "generally accepted" formula for determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the maximum force ... I don't know your source for this, Glenn, but I have pretty much always heard the figure of 50 pounds quoted. Then you do the ratio math from there. Without looking it up I think Wally Ross has some tables for this (my sailing books are still in boxes 3 moths after the move to a new house). -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.tripod.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Armond Perretta wrote: I don't know your source for this, Glenn, but I have pretty much always heard the figure of 50 pounds quoted. Then you do the ratio math from there. Without looking it up I think Wally Ross has some tables for this (my sailing books are still in boxes 3 moths after the move to a new house). The 35 comes from Brion Toss's book and a couple of articles I found on the Harkne and Lewmar sites on sizing winches. I thought it was a bit low myself. That's why I asked. Brion is a big Harken booster and probably got that number from them but they are out to sell winches so I guess you need to take their recommendations with a grain of salt. :-) I believe I am going with Harken as I already have a Harken 44 electric for the halyards and reefing lines. My choices therefore are between a 56 at about $2600 each and 55 lbs of force and a 64 at $3600 each and 45 lbs force. The pressure is really on now and the boat bucks are just flying out of my wallet. Harken usually raises prices in November so I need to make a decision by the time I leave the Annapolis show. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:07:20 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: Without looking it up I think Wally Ross has some tables for this (my sailing books are still in boxes 3 moths after the move to a new house). Anybody know if Wally Ross did or contributed to any other sailing books? I am lucky enough to own a first edition of "Sail Power" (1975) and it is the best book I've ever read on the subject, particularly as I have a '73 cruiser-racer, and all the latest state of the art gear pictured in Ross's book looks like my deck! G Anyway, a great and still-relevant book, even if most of the racing tweaks have been superseded by rule/class changes and gear improvements. Read Ross's book, "Heavy Weather Sailing" and a copy of Don Street's "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" and you won't go far wrong in my opinion. R. |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Normally before the splash you hear an OOPS.
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:28:24 -0400, "Armond Perretta" wrote: Rick & Linda Bernard wrote: ... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch is too expensive." I've even heard, "Geez, this winch HANDLE is too expensive!" Usually right before it slips, bounces on the toerail on its way over the side....(c; Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
If you luff up a bit that will take considerable load off of the sheet.
Also what is the basis for you calculations. I would think that 35*86 = 3000 # force. That in my book would be a knock down. Most marine catalogs suggest power ratios for various size boats and rigs. You can also get a double handle or one with a knob (1 1/2 handles) for more power. "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message ... Armond Perretta wrote: Rick & Linda Bernard wrote: ... I have never heard anyone say, "Geez this winch is too powerful." Nor have I. I have, however, heard several people say: "Geez, this winch is too expensive." Tell me about it!! While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can put on a winch handle? The "generally accepted" formula for determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the maximum force. With a 500 sq.ft. foretriangle that works out to 86:1. That is a $5,000 winch!!! A 64 cost about $3500 which is the limit of my buget but the handle force would be 48 lb. I'm thinking I may just head up a little, trim and fall off and save $3-4K. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Speaking of dropping things over the side..
Happened to me yesterday. I had spent 2 days in my machine/weld shop making a longer 'jaw' afair for my clew outhaul car.. Lotta work but what a fine job I did.. I can say that now (that it is on the bottom in 30 ft of water. If only I had make it out of something that would float or was magnetic. No hope of recovering it since I was swinging on a mooring bouy and the swing radius creates a very large search area. If I had had my gps turned on, I could have done a MOB and go down with some dive gear. I won't repeat my general abusive language here.. Steve s/v Good Intentions |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Ilv2sl wrote:
I'm going to replace the old wire main halyard winch, on my 35' sloop, with a line winch. Just wondering if there is a need for a 2sp. winch, for halyard use only. Other 2sp. winches are available for lifting, hoisting aloft, etc. Thanks to all. Why replace the winch? Our old halyard winch is for wire and works just fine for line. If it isn't working right, a quick cleaning may be all that's needed. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Why replace the winch? Our old halyard winch is for wire and works just
fine for line. If it isn't working right, a quick cleaning may be all that's needed. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) The reason I want to replace the reel winch with a winch for line, is to be able to raise the main faster, and being able to lower it easier, rather than letting go the brake. Also, not having to worry about the winch handle breaking a wrist, if someone leaves it in and releases the brake, or the brake fails. My question should have been, Has anyone with a 1sp. main halyard winch, found they would like to have a 2sp winch. Just refering to mailsail luff tensioning, not hoisting aloft, etc. I have both a Barient 16 ss 1sp. winch, and a Lewmar 16 chrome 2sp, and have to decide which one to install, and which to sell. The Barient is in excellent condition, and the Lwemar is new. So, do any of you 1sp. users feel a 2 sp. would be the way to go? Thanks |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Ilv2sl wrote:
The reason I want to replace the reel winch with a winch for line, is to be able to raise the main faster, and being able to lower it easier, rather than letting go the brake. Also, not having to worry about the winch handle breaking a wrist, if someone leaves it in and releases the brake, or the brake fails. My question should have been, Has anyone with a 1sp. main halyard winch, found they would like to have a 2sp winch. Just refering to mailsail luff tensioning, not hoisting aloft, etc. I have both a Barient 16 ss 1sp. winch, and a Lewmar 16 chrome 2sp, and have to decide which one to install, and which to sell. The Barient is in excellent condition, and the Lwemar is new. So, do any of you 1sp. users feel a 2 sp. would be the way to go? Thanks If one of the companies is out of business, I'd keep the other. We have old Barlow winches that we can still get parts for, but I worry about when/if I run out of what I have in the "junk box". (I think I replaced one pawl in 10 years.) I don't know Barient, but Lewmar seems to be a going concern, so with what little I know, I'd go for the Lewmar. That it's 2 speed is a plus, though that's hardly needed for a 16. One thing about halyard winches: Since they're mounted on the mast, you can put your full weight into cranking. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:50:27 -0500, "Rick & Linda Bernard"
wrote: Normally before the splash you hear an OOPS. In South Carolina, Redneck Country, you hear a lot of cursing from wherever the handle's owner WAS standing....(c; Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message ... While on the subject what do you guys feel is the maximum force you can put on a winch handle? 50 lbs or so for a good sized male. Less for average femals and smaller males. The "generally accepted" formula for determining winch ratio is (SA*6)/35 assuming 35 pounds being the maximum force. With a 500 sq.ft. foretriangle that works out to 86:1 Naaah, somethings wrong with your math or something. Is that the size of your largest sail or the 100% fore triangle area? What's going to be your largest foresail (either J% or sq. ft)? I can make a recommendation based on that - and how big is your wife! -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Several thoughts:
I've never heard your "six times the sail area" formula. The usual number is to calculate sheet force as .004 x sail area (sq ft) x wind speed squared (is that square knots?) Your formula gives the same load as the standard at around 39 knots, but the load at 39 knots is four times that at 20 knots, and you will certainly have changed headsails by then, probably twice. References: Harken catalogs for at least the last ten years Oceanography and Seamanship, Van Dorn, Cornell Maritime Press (the best not too technical text on its subjects by far -- you should add it to your list) Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, Kinney, Dodd Mead also Marchaj, Henderson, and others. We had Harken 980s (80:1) and Lewmar 65s in the cockpit on Swee****er and were probably overwinched there. We added the Harkens after sailing her in the summer of 1994 with old sheets, old sails, and winches that hadn't been maintained in years. The rebuilt Lewmars were fine. Her foretriangle was 850 sq ft (100%) and we usually used an 1100 square foot Spectra genoa on a roller. For passages in windy areas (the Tasman, etc.) we switched to a Yankee with a very high clew and a forestaysail on the removable stay. I should add that both of us were (and still are) 50-something and in the sort of reasonable condition you get into when you're living on a boat, but not exceptional in any way. Remember that you're not racing -- race boat winches are sized to bring a big genoa in fast when tacking, then do it again and again without taxing the gorillas -- crusing winches should make it reasonably easy to bring the sail in, but you can always luff up a bit. I think you'll be perfectly happy with 56s, possibly less. You'll find 65s too big (yes, winches can be too big, as they are slower) -- remember Swee****er came with 65s and her foretriangle is 70% bigger than yours. And by the way, this assumes you hang one sail up there. You call her a "cutter" -- if you're never going to hang a single big genoa, then all these numbers are too high. As for Harken, they may have changed designs since we bought ours new in 1995, but the ones we had were much less satisfactory than the 1982 Lewmars that came with the boat (we put new pawls, pawl springs, and some bearings in the Lewmars). The Harkens required more frequent cleaning and felt less efficent. We put an electric Harken 53 on the main halyard (versus Harken's recommendation of a 48) and the drive gear broke twice -- once in the Galapagos and once off Malta. Although both were within the three year warranty period, I paid $500 for each fix. Fortunately it still worked in armstrong mode. So, while I wouldn't use any other brand of blocks, and I love their ball top winch handles, any future winches I buy will not be Harken (I bought two Lewmar 65s, well used, but nice, at the Beaulieu Boat Jumble (read "flea market") for Fintry for £400 each). We'll use them for flag halyards and docking. Jim Woodward www.mvfintry.com Glenn Ashmore wrote in message ... Armond Perretta wrote: I don't know your source for this, Glenn, but I have pretty much always heard the figure of 50 pounds quoted. Then you do the ratio math from there. Without looking it up I think Wally Ross has some tables for this (my sailing books are still in boxes 3 moths after the move to a new house). The 35 comes from Brion Toss's book and a couple of articles I found on the Harkne and Lewmar sites on sizing winches. I thought it was a bit low myself. That's why I asked. Brion is a big Harken booster and probably got that number from them but they are out to sell winches so I guess you need to take their recommendations with a grain of salt. :-) I believe I am going with Harken as I already have a Harken 44 electric for the halyards and reefing lines. My choices therefore are between a 56 at about $2600 each and 55 lbs of force and a 64 at $3600 each and 45 lbs force. The pressure is really on now and the boat bucks are just flying out of my wallet. Harken usually raises prices in November so I need to make a decision by the time I leave the Annapolis show. |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
It doesn't take that much force to tension the main luff. And in any
case, I prefer a separate cunningham. I use a 4 part tackle on the cunningham in my Tartan 30. -- |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the
page: http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php It is also in Brion Toss's Riggers Apprentice on page 42. (Almost verbatim from the harken site.) OTOH, when you look at the tables a 56 or 64 is the recommended size for a 500 sq ft foretriangle. I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative modern texts are metric! -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:41:47 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote: Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the page: http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php It is also in Brion Toss's Riggers Apprentice on page 42. (Almost verbatim from the harken site.) OTOH, when you look at the tables a 56 or 64 is the recommended size for a 500 sq ft foretriangle. I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative modern texts are metric! Hold a good sized apple in your hand: that's a force of 1 newton you're holding it up with - a little under a quarter pound. Brian W |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:41:47 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote: I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative modern texts are metric! It's a brown, square little cake stuffed with Fig guts about 1/2" thick and cut square on two sides like it's made in one continuous tube and they slice it ever' so of'n. They also got 'em in Strawberry, Blueberry an' Raspberry, but I suspect the Fig ones'll always win out from the traditionalist buyers who are addicted......and my two parrots. Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message ... Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the page: http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php In this case I think Harken is just off. They use an example of a 300 sq. ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter) and conclude you need a 50:1 winch. I don't think so. The winch was a 2 speed 32:1 and was fine. Yes, it was a bit of effort in a stiff breeze - but you could still wind it in. The usual formula for sheet loads is F (lbs) = 0.00431 A(sq. ft) V^2 (knots) There are some frictional losses through sheet blocks but not that much, perhaps 10%. I think 56's would be more than fine for your 505 ft foresail. If they are self tailers, and you use a 2 handled winch handle, they will be a breeze for smaller crew members. by the way in case you were not kidding: 1 N = .0981 kg i.e. about 0.1 kg force or about 0.2 lbs -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:41:47 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote: snip I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative modern texts are metric! Try.... http://www.savardsoftware.com/masterconverter/ ....a good little software converter that allows you to quickly change variables to begin to grasp the units of measure. --- Max and Hillary, sitting in a tree; Cay-eye-es-es-eye-en-gee. |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
I agree with Evan -- Harken is way off.
The formula Evan quotes is the same one I quoted above. As I noted, it's been used by Skene (Kinney), Van Dorn, Henderson, Marchaj, and many others. The trouble with the Harken formula is that it doesn't specify a wind speed. Since sheeting force varies with the square of wind speed, that's a vital part of the choice of winch size. If you really expect to carry a full foretriangle at 40 knots, then the Harken formula is fine. That, however, suggests that at ten knots you'll be grossly undercanvassed -- that you could carry sixteen times more sail than you have. Put another way, the difference between a 56 and a 66 is 18% in power. Since the sheeting force varies with wind speed squared, a sail that is easy with a 56 at 20 knots would require a 66 at 21.7 knots. Since this is a very subtle difference, the only way to do this is for you (Glenn) to do the math. Look at the rig you'll be carrying at each wind speed, calculate the sheet loads with the Evan's formula and make a decision. Your naval architect can provide a table of her ability to carry sail at various wind speeds up to bare poles at around sixty knots. Beware, these are probably high -- my experience with several boats, including Swee****er (Swan 57 by Sparkman & Stephens) was that we never carried as much sail as they said we could. We were, of course cruising shorthanded, not racing. For my money, they are far better places to put money in a cruising boat than in big winches. Dee (wife and crew for 37 years) would agree, and she's the one who has to be perfectly happy reefing, tacking, whatever, alone at night, in a blow, without waking me. (I should add, however, that there are limits. The sailor who goes out with grossly undersized winches and tacks by luffing while sheeting, risks breaking the winch or ripping it out of the deck in puffs.) Jim Woodward www.mvfintry.com "Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ... "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message ... Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the page: http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php In this case I think Harken is just off. They use an example of a 300 sq. ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter) and conclude you need a 50:1 winch. I don't think so. The winch was a 2 speed 32:1 and was fine. Yes, it was a bit of effort in a stiff breeze - but you could still wind it in. The usual formula for sheet loads is F (lbs) = 0.00431 A(sq. ft) V^2 (knots) There are some frictional losses through sheet blocks but not that much, perhaps 10%. I think 56's would be more than fine for your 505 ft foresail. If they are self tailers, and you use a 2 handled winch handle, they will be a breeze for smaller crew members. by the way in case you were not kidding: 1 N = .0981 kg i.e. about 0.1 kg force or about 0.2 lbs |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:52:22 -0700, in message
"Evan Gatehouse" wrote: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message ... Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the page: http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php In this case I think Harken is just off. They use an example of a 300 sq. ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter) and conclude you need a 50:1 winch. I don't think so. The winch was a 2 speed 32:1 and was fine. Yes, it was a bit of effort in a stiff breeze - but you could still wind it in. You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My *foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for about 80% of the foretriangle area). The usual formula for sheet loads is F (lbs) = 0.00431 A(sq. ft) V^2 (knots) Both the sheet load and the driving forces will scale with V^2. If one assumes that one will shorten sail at higher wind speeds to maintain similar power levels, then the sheet load will remain similar as the wind speed increases. If one then assumes that boats will carry foresails with size being a similar fraction of the foretriangle at similar wind speeds, then the loads will scale with foretriangle size from boat to boat. I think 56's would be more than fine for your 505 ft foresail. If they are self tailers, and you use a 2 handled winch handle, they will be a breeze for smaller crew members. Probably. Note that a 505 square foot genoa would be 150% of a 335 square foot foretriangle and match the recommendation pretty closely with a 56:1. OTOH, the 505 square foot storm jib of a MUCH bigger boat would carry much higher loads and require more mechanical advantage. by the way in case you were not kidding: 1 N = .0981 kg i.e. about 0.1 kg force or about 0.2 lbs 9.81 N is the force of gravity on a 1 kilogram mass near the earth's surface, so 1 N is the weight of a mass of 0.10 kg or 0.22 lbs. Ryk -- Unfortunately this address has been overrun by SPAM. If you want to be sure I see email from you, then please include the words "Ryk says it's OK" somewhere in your message. |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
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Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Ryk wrote: You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My *foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for about 80% of the foretriangle area). The foretriangle is what we are talking about. Acording to that formula your 300 sq ft foretriangle needs a pair of 52s. My I = 58.8 and J = 17.25 so my foretriangle is about 507 sq ft. The formula comes up with 80+ which is obviously out of line. I think the problem is the 6 factor. It is supposed to be a combination of 30 knots of wind and all the friction load. It must have been chosen by a winch salesman. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
Holy Cow. By that formula, the boat I race on with the 660 square foot
foretriangle (and it's a 12 ton boat to boot with lots of stability and big loads) has winches about half the required size. We race with old Barient 52s, and while short tacking with the #1 requires us to swap out grinders on occasion, I don't think a 110 power ratio is what the boat wants. I'd say something in the 60's would be better than what we've got (the Barients were the biggest thing going when the boat was built). Use the formula Evan gave you (assume full foretriangle at about 30 knots) and go from there. Use a 35 pound load on the winch handle. That gives you a 56 which is probably in the ballpark. "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message ... Ryk wrote: You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My *foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for about 80% of the foretriangle area). The foretriangle is what we are talking about. Acording to that formula your 300 sq ft foretriangle needs a pair of 52s. My I = 58.8 and J = 17.25 so my foretriangle is about 507 sq ft. The formula comes up with 80+ which is obviously out of line. I think the problem is the 6 factor. It is supposed to be a combination of 30 knots of wind and all the friction load. It must have been chosen by a winch salesman. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Main halyard winch, 1sp. or 2sp?
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:02:56 -0400, in message
Glenn Ashmore wrote: Ryk wrote: You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My *foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for about 80% of the foretriangle area). The foretriangle is what we are talking about. and the post I was responding to was talking about "They use an example of a 300 sq. ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter)" Acording to that formula your 300 sq ft foretriangle needs a pair of 52s. The 46s I have are good, but I sure wouldn't complain if a pair of 52s appeared on my deck by magic. It's quite probably the racer in me that just likes big winches. My I = 58.8 and J = 17.25 so my foretriangle is about 507 sq ft. The formula comes up with 80+ which is obviously out of line. I think the problem is the 6 factor. It is supposed to be a combination of 30 knots of wind and all the friction load. It must have been chosen by a winch salesman. :-) It's probably also an issue of how you would likely sail the boat. If you want to carry a 150% genny until performance would improve by shortening sail and don't want to luff in order to trim, then you probably would need the 80+ to stay down to the 35 pound load. You could reduce the requirement dramatically by accepting a modest performance hit in either of those areas and that could make a lot of sense as a cost trade-off for cruising. Also, on a bigger boat it is typically easier to get right over the winch, getting full use of both arms and shoulders to raise the applied load on the handle, not to mention moving up to a 12 inch handle. Still, if money were no object, wouldn't a pair of 77 three speeds suit your application (and the winch salesman's commission account ;-) )? Ryk -- Unfortunately this address has been overrun by SPAM. If you want to be sure I see email from you, then please include the words "Ryk says it's OK" somewhere in your message. |
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