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Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering. Since
I have a tiller ,, I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no diagrams. Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Tom (or whatever),
You forgot to include the link in your post. These kinds of self steering rigs are very finicky, the king of thing you try to jury rig after your real wind vane steerer breaks and you are facing days of steering you hadn't planned on. Some very long keeled boat can work pretty well with them but they won't work very well on your Bristol 32, even if you don't sell it. Give my regards to Captain Winchandle when you see him:) -- Roger Long "NE Sailboat" wrote in message news:J2s%g.8604$gZ2.6181@trndny07... Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering. Since I have a tiller ,, I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no diagrams. Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Yo .. Captain Roger .. on my Bristol 32, my self steering gear is a Bungy
Cord. The link .. http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml This goes back to 1974. The author, apparently wrote a book that shows how to set this up.. And before the Windvane, this method was used by some for very long passages. For the life of me, the article just doesn't make sense to me. I read it five times. Dumb I guess. PS .. the B32 , will be nearby this coming season ,,, maybe.. depends of crew. "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Tom (or whatever), You forgot to include the link in your post. These kinds of self steering rigs are very finicky, the king of thing you try to jury rig after your real wind vane steerer breaks and you are facing days of steering you hadn't planned on. Some very long keeled boat can work pretty well with them but they won't work very well on your Bristol 32, even if you don't sell it. Give my regards to Captain Winchandle when you see him:) -- Roger Long "NE Sailboat" wrote in message news:J2s%g.8604$gZ2.6181@trndny07... Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering. Since I have a tiller ,, I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no diagrams. Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
NE Sailboat wrote:
Yo .. Captain Roger .. on my Bristol 32, my self steering gear is a Bungy Cord. The link .. http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml This goes back to 1974. The author, apparently wrote a book that shows how to set this up.. And before the Windvane, this method was used by some for very long passages. For the life of me, the article just doesn't make sense to me. I read it five times. Dumb I guess. PS .. the B32 , will be nearby this coming season ,,, maybe.. depends of crew. I tried this time after time on my Westsail 32 with no good results despite reading in several places that it should work. I am very skeptical that 'many long passages' were made this way aside from short times off the tiller. The implication that you can leave the helm for days while this arrangement works wasn't proved by my experiments. -paul |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:26:28 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote: This goes back to 1974. The author, apparently wrote a book that shows how to set this up.. I bought the book back in the 70s and could never get it to work either. As Roger said, it might be feasible on a heavy, long keeled boat that is reasonably well balanced, and sails in winds of steady strength. My boat at the time was a 28 ft fin keeler that was very susceptible to weather helm when heeled. It wouldn't self steer worth a darn and I ended up buying a tiller pilot which we nicknamed "Otto", as in, Otto pilot. It was one of the best cruising investments we ever made and the only thing I kept when we bought a bigger boat in the 80s. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
There's a really good book that describes how to do this. It's by John
Letcher and was published in the early 70's. Go to Barnes and Noble's used and out of print books section (www.bn.com), search on John Letcher as author, and see if you can find a copy. I used that book to set up sheet to tiller steering on the 28' 3/4 keel sloop that I owned back then, and it worked great. Wouldn't steer straight down wind, of course, but on a beam reach to a beat it worked just fine. Unless the boat got thrown way off course by a wave, it steered like a champ. I'd set it up and sit back and read while it steered the boat. I don't remember now, after all this time, how far aft the wind could be before it stopped working, but it seems to me that the wind could be a fair distance aft of the beam. Best regards, Tom Dacon "NE Sailboat" wrote in message news:J2s%g.8604$gZ2.6181@trndny07... Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering. Since I have a tiller ,, I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no diagrams. Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:37:41 -0700, "Tom Dacon"
wrote: There's a really good book that describes how to do this. It's by John Letcher and was published in the early 70's. Go to Barnes and Noble's used and out of print books section (www.bn.com), search on John Letcher as author, and see if you can find a copy. http://tinyurl.com/ylgq3t Been there, bought the book and done that. YMMV, but it didn't work for me. Interesting book however. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
In Paul Cassel writes:
NE Sailboat wrote: Yo .. Captain Roger .. on my Bristol 32, my self steering gear is a Bungy Cord. The link .. http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml This goes back to 1974. The author, apparently wrote a book that shows how to set this up.. And before the Windvane, this method was used by some for very long passages. For the life of me, the article just doesn't make sense to me. I read it five times. Dumb I guess. PS .. the B32 , will be nearby this coming season ,,, maybe.. depends of crew. I tried this time after time on my Westsail 32 with no good results despite reading in several places that it should work. I am very skeptical that 'many long passages' were made this way aside from short times off the tiller. The implication that you can leave the helm for days while this arrangement works wasn't proved by my experiments. Different boat behave differently in different directions of wind and sea conditions. I have a 40" sloop, keel base some 7", so it is no long keeler, but on a beat it steers nicely with a piece of rope from the tiller to the windward rail. On the run I would not even dream of letting it be more than about 10 seconds unattended with a passive self steering, but my windvane is capable of steering for days. The longest time I have sailed with the "string-steering" (hard on wind) is 22 hours, without anybody touching the helm. Then we had to tack, because there was an Island in front of us. The idea of having the the steering force from a sheet, is based on the possibility that the pressure of the sheet can be balanced with the pressure of the tiller. If the boat bears down there will be more pressure and when the baot luffs up there will be less pressure and the sail, usually the jib, either pulls the helm to windward or lets it down to leeward. For this to work there must be certain amount of weather helm, and the pressure of the wind on the jib must equal the need to keep the tiller in proper position. It should be clear without saying, that it is not easy to achieve this balance and the friction of the ropes must be such, that it on other hand dampens some of the action, but on the other hand is sensitive enough to react properly, not too much and not too little. Some boats will keep their course on certain conditions for hours, if you just tie the tiller (or wheel) down, but most modern boats are a bit too lively to do it on other courses than hard on wind. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Tom,,
So, you have used it ... ok ok ... what and where does the jib sheet attach to? Say we go with a starboard tack. Wind from abeam to a beat... the sheet on the port side will be tight, right. // the sheet on the starboard side is loose, right? If the boat pulls into the wind { to starboard } the tiller is pulled to port, right? So, this means that something must pull the tiller back to starboard to keep the boat from pulling into the wind, right? How is pressure applied to the windward side of the tiller ?? Is that the stretch tuding that pulls it back to windward side? I did this last summer with a bungy cord. I got her on course, attached my cord and when the boat pulled into the wind the cord would pull a little. Could hole a course for a few minutes, not long. But this was not a very good set up. If she would hold for one half an hour that would be great. Give me lots of time to do other things. If you could try to explain just a little better ... please? "Tom Dacon" wrote in message ... There's a really good book that describes how to do this. It's by John Letcher and was published in the early 70's. Go to Barnes and Noble's used and out of print books section (www.bn.com), search on John Letcher as author, and see if you can find a copy. I used that book to set up sheet to tiller steering on the 28' 3/4 keel sloop that I owned back then, and it worked great. Wouldn't steer straight down wind, of course, but on a beam reach to a beat it worked just fine. Unless the boat got thrown way off course by a wave, it steered like a champ. I'd set it up and sit back and read while it steered the boat. I don't remember now, after all this time, how far aft the wind could be before it stopped working, but it seems to me that the wind could be a fair distance aft of the beam. Best regards, Tom Dacon "NE Sailboat" wrote in message news:J2s%g.8604$gZ2.6181@trndny07... Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering. Since I have a tiller ,, I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no diagrams. Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord?
"NE Sailboat" wrote in message news:IoM%g.11278$iM2.8992@trndny08... Tom,, So, you have used it ... ok ok ... what and where does the jib sheet attach to? Say we go with a starboard tack. Wind from abeam to a beat... the sheet on the port side will be tight, right. // the sheet on the starboard side is loose, right? If the boat pulls into the wind { to starboard } the tiller is pulled to port, right? So, this means that something must pull the tiller back to starboard to keep the boat from pulling into the wind, right? How is pressure applied to the windward side of the tiller ?? Is that the stretch tuding that pulls it back to windward side? I did this last summer with a bungy cord. I got her on course, attached my cord and when the boat pulled into the wind the cord would pull a little. Could hole a course for a few minutes, not long. But this was not a very good set up. If she would hold for one half an hour that would be great. Give me lots of time to do other things. If you could try to explain just a little better ... please? "Tom Dacon" wrote in message ... There's a really good book that describes how to do this. It's by John Letcher and was published in the early 70's. Go to Barnes and Noble's used and out of print books section (www.bn.com), search on John Letcher as author, and see if you can find a copy. I used that book to set up sheet to tiller steering on the 28' 3/4 keel sloop that I owned back then, and it worked great. Wouldn't steer straight down wind, of course, but on a beam reach to a beat it worked just fine. Unless the boat got thrown way off course by a wave, it steered like a champ. I'd set it up and sit back and read while it steered the boat. I don't remember now, after all this time, how far aft the wind could be before it stopped working, but it seems to me that the wind could be a fair distance aft of the beam. Best regards, Tom Dacon "NE Sailboat" wrote in message news:J2s%g.8604$gZ2.6181@trndny07... Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering. Since I have a tiller ,, I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no diagrams. Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:56:07 GMT, "Chi Chi"
wrote: perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord? One of the points that Letcher makes in his book, is that bungie cord makes a lousy spring because of its non linear stretch characteristics. He recommends surgical tubing instead. That made sense to me so I went out to my local drug store, endured their 3rd degree questioning regarding purpose, and took it to the boat. It didn't work either. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Wayne,, work or not ,,, I still can't figure out the attachment system.
On the lee side of the boat, away from the wind, the sheet gets pulled tight, usually wrapped around a winch and then pulled tight and cleated. On the wind side of the boat the sheet ( I am talking jib here ) is left loose.. until the boat is tacked and then that side gets pulled in.. Now, if the tiller is attached to an elastic line, to a cleat ... ( like my bungy cord system ) ,, the tiller needs to be controled from pulling into the wind.. Or, on a starboard tack ,,,, the tiller needs to be controled from moving to the direction of port .. that way the boat doesn't turn into the wind.. Ok ok ok ... so how does the sheet on the loose side come into play, ,, or does it? This is what has me confused.... only one side has a tight sheet or a sheet under pressure. Is the pressure side controling the non pressure side? ================ Even though this might not work... I must admit some interest after my bungy cord system. ================== I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. ========= "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:56:07 GMT, "Chi Chi" wrote: perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord? One of the points that Letcher makes in his book, is that bungie cord makes a lousy spring because of its non linear stretch characteristics. He recommends surgical tubing instead. That made sense to me so I went out to my local drug store, endured their 3rd degree questioning regarding purpose, and took it to the boat. It didn't work either. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.
Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality, and probably expensive.. No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all conditions, just something to take the edge off. That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the coast of New England. The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray? Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on course? As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going. Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a permanent system? I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t, eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss, ............. then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ??????????????????? another hour of self steering is called for. ============================== "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat" writes: I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
NE Sailboat wrote:
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both. Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality, and probably expensive.. No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all conditions, just something to take the edge off. That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the coast of New England. The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray? Slocum had no self steering. He'd balance the boat out and she'd self steer ok once so balanced. Beats me why you are making yourself crazy here. Many have told you that we tried and it didn't work. Lauri did try and it worked so that means it doesn't work for all boats and I'll tell you it won't work nearly as well as a tiller master or vane. How many replies saying we tried and it didn't work will it take? |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really afford a cruising boat anyway. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how! Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the helm. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. Or know how to make his own. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
In ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both. Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality, and probably expensive.. No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all conditions, just something to take the edge off. Then you use it mainly in nice and easy conditions. That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the coast of New England. The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray? Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on course? If you reaad Joshua Slocums book about his circumnavigation he just tied the tiller down. He said Spray would keep it's course for days. As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going. I believe that if you look around you will find some stores that sell various components for shelfs and storage systems and tarpaulin supports, that have tubes and different kind of angled and straight joining elements, so you can build anything you want. Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a permanent system? There are some laws in physics about the energy, there are systems that use the power created by the wane to steer the boat, but the wane is then a small sail. Look more carefully to the system Sir Francis Chichester used on his journeys. I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t, eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss, ............ then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ??????????????????? another hour of self steering is called for. It is hard to make any realistic proposals without knowing more about your boat. On the wind it should be easy just by using a shockcord or a piece of rope, on a reach or a run it is more complicated. The electronic tiller pilots are just done for this purpose and even the small ones will do on nice conditions and then they do not draw too much energy to ruin your batteries. - Lauri Tarkkonen ============================== "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat" writes: I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
In DSK writes:
"NE Sailboat" writes: I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really afford a cruising boat anyway. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how! Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the helm. Do the low friction bearings come cheap? I thougt that here the price is related the other way around, the more friction the cheaper. :-). If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics. The geometry is worked out and with the tiller you have a continuous adjustment, because you can attach the line pulling the tiller in different postiions of the tiller, giving you control of the lever arm. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. Or know how to make his own. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth. This something I try to say, if you want a windvane, get a proper one, if you want something to carry your boat while you are in the loo, a tiller pilot is doing a decent job, and it doing it reasonably cheap, I have a good windvane, but while motoring and if I want just a temporary relief from the helm, I use the tillerpilot. If I know I am going to sail for the next few hour or more, I rig the windvane. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage. If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems that never ever got used. Dah ??? So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the sheet to tiller system. Now I am Mr Cheapo. Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do. =================================== "DSK" wrote in message . .. "NE Sailboat" writes: I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really afford a cruising boat anyway. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how! Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the helm. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. Or know how to make his own. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
In P%S%g.7320$ke4.5998@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:
Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage. If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems that never ever got used. Dah ??? So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the sheet to tiller system. Now I am Mr Cheapo. So far I know how to read, you were the one taking the word "cheap" into the discussion. If we do not know about systems that work and are reliable in various conditions and advice againts cheap solutions, I do not see any reason to be offended. There are always people who believe that they can by good and cheap, but in most cases if you want to have GOOD and CHEAP, you end up needing two things. It is your prerogative to make whatever you please with your boat and money, but if you do not like the advice or comments on this list, remember they are at least cheap. Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do. So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here. - Lauri Tarkkonen =================================== "DSK" wrote in message ... "NE Sailboat" writes: I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really afford a cruising boat anyway. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how! Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the helm. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. Or know how to make his own. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:12:10 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote: The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray? Their routes were carefully chosen to be dead down wind or nearly so. You can do that if you are going around the world, much harder Portland, ME to Portsmouth, NH. They would typically use a double head sail rig: Two jibs wung-out on opposite sides, each with its own pole. The jib sheet on each side would be led aft to a turning block, and then tied to the tiller. As the boat would begin to head up too much in one direction or the other, jib sheet tension would increase on one side and decrease on the other, thus pulling the tiller in the correct direction to head down wind again. Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on course? Yes. They could go downwind for days and weeks at a time with little or no adjustment. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
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Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Charlie Morgan wrote:
Do yourself a huge favor and ignore DSK. He's a well known and well worn usenet failure. His knowlege is all from a book, and we are not sure he even has the right book. He diesn't know anything firsthand about this subject. People who have experience & knowledge can judge for themselves whether I know anything about this (or other sailing/cruising subjects). Since you think I "have no experience" that shows 2 things- how sound your judgement is (or isnt) and also your own level of knowledge/experience. DSK |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Lauri ,,, I just checked.. in all the postings about this subject except
where I responded to a personal attack by one poster who questioned my right to own a cruising sailboat because I thought spending $3k on a wind vane was not a wise investment ....... I never used, nor did I write, nor post the word "cheap" Check the postings... As for or to the postings saying the sheet to tiller system of self steering does not work .. that may be the case or it may not be the case. I discovered one web page of an owner of a 28' sailboat that swears by his sheet to tiller self steering system. He admits that it does not work on all points of sail, nor does it work as well as an expensive windvane system, but; he is satisfied with his system and he sails a bit offshore. The attraction to the cruising newsgroup is the diverse opinion and the give and take. If the answer was always ... "you should not own a boat because you don't have lots of money like I do" Then, the newsgroup would be very poor. =========================== "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In P%S%g.7320$ke4.5998@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes: Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage. If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems that never ever got used. Dah ??? So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the sheet to tiller system. Now I am Mr Cheapo. So far I know how to read, you were the one taking the word "cheap" into the discussion. If we do not know about systems that work and are reliable in various conditions and advice againts cheap solutions, I do not see any reason to be offended. There are always people who believe that they can by good and cheap, but in most cases if you want to have GOOD and CHEAP, you end up needing two things. It is your prerogative to make whatever you please with your boat and money, but if you do not like the advice or comments on this list, remember they are at least cheap. Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do. So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here. - Lauri Tarkkonen =================================== "DSK" wrote in message t... "NE Sailboat" writes: I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ??? Probably won't happen. If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really afford a cruising boat anyway. I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the cockpit. It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how! Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build. It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the helm. If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is just controlling the angle of this oar to the water. Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics. They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy quality. Or know how to make his own. I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while underway. It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
In iOT%g.4206$%T3.1576@trndny03 "NE Sailboat" writes:
Lauri ,,, I just checked.. in all the postings about this subject except where I responded to a personal attack by one poster who questioned my right to own a cruising sailboat because I thought spending $3k on a wind vane was not a wise investment ....... I never used, nor did I write, nor post the word "cheap" Check the postings... Some one here were asking for a poor mans... you may check your postings yourself. I have not said anything about what you should do with your money or take any opinion if you should own a boat or not. In your original poist, that I commented, you did not tell us, that you did not mind if the thing did not work. I still am entitled to my opinion that it does not make sense to buy or make a windvane that has very limited use. If someone is happy with his steering system that works if the conditions are right, you may follow his advice. I am sorry to pay some attention to your enquiry. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
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Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:51:32 -0400, DSK wrote: Okay, Doug. Please describe the windvane setup on your own sailboat. Oh, you don't have a windvane OR a sailboat? Well, can you then describe the windvane on a sailboatt you USED to have? Oh, you've never had a sailboat with a windvane? Okay... What's that Doug? You say that your crusing in sailboats consisted of dragging a Hunter 19 on a trailer down the highway? WOW! CWM ========================= Charlie ,, you are a cruel man ... but I must say I am laughing out loud. Old DSK must be smoking after your posting. Rig for ramming speed. ====================== I have been making progress in the self steering department .... It seems that the sheet to tiller self steering is not the best system, but if it will work for a short time, that is all I need. I have read lots and lots of info on the wind vane, very interesting reading. While some swear by them, others go on and on about the problems of weight, blah blah blah ... I might even get one some time but I am not in need of one at this time. See ya |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:57:11 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote: I have read lots and lots of info on the wind vane, very interesting reading. While some swear by them, others go on and on about the problems of weight, blah blah blah ... I might even get one some time but I am not in need of one at this time. For day sailing and coastal cruising you will get a lot more utility from an electronic tiller pilot - much less expensive, easy to set up, works in light wind, down wind, no wind and under power. As an added benefit they do not eat, drink or complain. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Wayne ,,,
"As an added benefit they do not eat, drink or complain." Helloooooooo ... Wayne ..... ???? I am a man! As such, I put up with EAT, DRINK, COMPLAIN ......... to get ^%$#&*! Humping a windvane is really not that much fun. And the sheet to tiller self steering system? Last time a checked, no one has posted that the system has a nice ass. Now ... if I have a self steering system and a {&(*&^%} who wants to eat, drink, and complain but also wants to &*&^%$#$ Wayne! You have provided the answer. After numerous postings, arguments, contentious ravings, ... you have hit on the answer to the self steering system question. Paris Hilton! The Paris Hilton Self Steering Sheet to Tiller, Wind-Vane system! When your yacht is rigged with the PH, no need to leave the dock or mooring. Therefore, no need for a steering system at all. And it comes with the famous PH bumper sticker: WHEN THIS BOATS A ROCKIN, PH HAS COME A KNOCKN Thank you Wayne! ======================= "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:57:11 GMT, "NE Sailboat" wrote: I have read lots and lots of info on the wind vane, very interesting reading. While some swear by them, others go on and on about the problems of weight, blah blah blah ... I might even get one some time but I am not in need of one at this time. For day sailing and coastal cruising you will get a lot more utility from an electronic tiller pilot - much less expensive, easy to set up, works in light wind, down wind, no wind and under power. As an added benefit they do not eat, drink or complain. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
I acknowledge that I have not tried it (being mostly a coastal sailor)
but there are directions for a DIY wind vane at http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/. Apparently you can mount it to plywood that then gets attached to the transom for a test drive. If you have the time and desire, and don't want to spend a lot of money (and don't plan to sleep while it's working), you might try this. Steve Hayes Augusta, Maine |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
I acknowledge that I have not tried it (being mostly a coastal sailor)
but there are directions for a DIY wind vane at http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/. Apparently you can mount it to plywood that then gets attached to the transom for a test drive. If you have the time and desire, and don't want to spend a lot of money (and don't plan to sleep while it's working), you might try this. Steve Hayes Augusta, Maine |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... Do yourself a huge favor and ignore DSK. He's a well known and well worn usenet failure. His knowlege is all from a book, and we are not sure he even has the right book. He diesn't know anything firsthand about this subject. Do yourself a bigger favour and PLONK Charlie Morgan. He is a vindictive little twerp. He has wished death upon a fellow sailor. He even faked his own death on another NG and laughed at the people after they sent condolences. -- Scott Vernon Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_ |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Charlie Morgan wrote:
Okay, Doug. Please describe the windvane setup on your own sailboat. Oh, you don't have a windvane OR a sailboat? Well, can you then describe the windvane on a sailboatt you USED to have? Sure. An Aries on a Saga 43, mounted slightly off center. Then I have also used an English built windvane on a Whitby 42 ketch. The first wind vane I ever used, I built myself and used on a series of boats. One was a bubble-top Columbia 26, another was the King's Cruiser owned by my father. .... Oh, you've never had a sailboat with a windvane? What gives you that idea? Okay... What's that Doug? You say that your crusing in sailboats consisted of dragging a Hunter 19 on a trailer down the highway? WOW! Not only that, I have a buddy who claims to have radar on a C&C 27. DSK |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
You all remind me of a bunch of immature school children! Grow up and cut
out this crap I don't think the group needs or wants to read this garbage. "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:36:47 -0400, DSK wrote: Charlie Morgan wrote: Okay, Doug. Please describe the windvane setup on your own sailboat. Oh, you don't have a windvane OR a sailboat? Well, can you then describe the windvane on a sailboatt you USED to have? Sure. An Aries on a Saga 43, mounted slightly off center. Then I have also used an English built windvane on a Whitby 42 ketch. The first wind vane I ever used, I built myself and used on a series of boats. One was a bubble-top Columbia 26, another was the King's Cruiser owned by my father. .... Oh, you've never had a sailboat with a windvane? What gives you that idea? Okay... What's that Doug? You say that your crusing in sailboats consisted of dragging a Hunter 19 on a trailer down the highway? WOW! Not only that, I have a buddy who claims to have radar on a C&C 27. DSK Took you quite a while to come up with this fantasy. Writer's block? CWM |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Not only that, I have a buddy who claims to have radar on a
C&C 27. Charlie Morgan wrote: Took you quite a while to come up with this fantasy. Is this your clever little way of admitting that you don't really have radar, or that you don't really have a C&C 27? As for "how long," did you sit around waiting for me to post a reply so you could jump on it in less than 20 minutes? I actually have a life. DSK |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:27:23 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote: I am a man! As such, I put up with EAT, DRINK, COMPLAIN ......... to get ^%$#&*! Trust me on this one, if you have a tiller pilot you will have more time for that. Nothing like a little R & R while Otto drives the boat. |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Wow ,, that is soooo cool.... If I do that Roger Long will show up and kick
me to make sure I am dead! ====================== How can you plonk a guy named Charlie Morgan? Isn't that a famous yachting name? Morgan yachts? What if it is THE CHARLIE MORGAN? ================================ "Scotty" wrote in message . .. "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... Do yourself a huge favor and ignore DSK. He's a well known and well worn usenet failure. His knowlege is all from a book, and we are not sure he even has the right book. He diesn't know anything firsthand about this subject. Do yourself a bigger favour and PLONK Charlie Morgan. He is a vindictive little twerp. He has wished death upon a fellow sailor. He even faked his own death on another NG and laughed at the people after they sent condolences. -- Scott Vernon Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_ |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... My heineous "crime" was to point out that Doug King is not nearly the expert he would like everyone to believe he is. He has a massive ego, that dwarfs his knowledge. What I posted about his cruising experience was absolutely true. He had a 19 foot hunter on a trailer that he would cruise at 55 mph down the highway and plop it in various places for day sails and overnights. When it came time to buy his "real" cruising boat, he bought a clapped out 36 foot single screw TRAWLER. Doug is not that old or infirm, he just has a wife who calls all the shots. He's pretty pitiful. There is a puppy dog named Scotty who follows him around trying to defend him wherever he goes. I guess Doug is maybe a bit limp wristed, too... if you know what I mean. His wife is pretty manly looking. Whatsa matta Chuckie, did Doug hurt your feelings? You sound like a jealous, spiteful grade school dunce. Bark, bark Scotty |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ??
Poor Doug .. I feel bad now. And that dog, could it get any worse.
A Trawler yacht ,, that is a MOTOR BOAT. Oh , the shame of it all. Having a manly looking wife can be a great comfort though. She probably can pull in the anchor, dock lines, etc. My new bride, the former Paris Hilton, can't do anything except &^%$#. And, she does that with every Captain in the harbor! But ,,, I still love her. Tally ho.... fair winds, or good gas ( that is what trawler guys say, isn't it ). "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:25:33 GMT, "NE Sailboat" wrote: Wow ,, that is soooo cool.... If I do that Roger Long will show up and kick me to make sure I am dead! ====================== How can you plonk a guy named Charlie Morgan? Isn't that a famous yachting name? Morgan yachts? What if it is THE CHARLIE MORGAN? Don't worry about it, NE. If you want to plonk me because some nitwit ordered you to, go right ahead. It will hurt you more than it will hurt me. My heineous "crime" was to point out that Doug King is not nearly the expert he would like everyone to believe he is. He has a massive ego, that dwarfs his knowledge. What I posted about his cruising experience was absolutely true. He had a 19 foot hunter on a trailer that he would cruise at 55 mph down the highway and plop it in various places for day sails and overnights. When it came time to buy his "real" cruising boat, he bought a clapped out 36 foot single screw TRAWLER. Doug is not that old or infirm, he just has a wife who calls all the shots. He's pretty pitiful. There is a puppy dog named Scotty who follows him around trying to defend him wherever he goes. I guess Doug is maybe a bit limp wristed, too... if you know what I mean. His wife is pretty manly looking. CWM |
Sheet to Tiller self steering question .. ?? - The boat.JPG (0/1)
"Charlie Morgan" wrote Is this your clever little way of admitting that you don't really have radar, or that you don't really have a C&C 27? Here ya go, liar! Looks like a 27-5 with RADAR to me? Idiot posting a jpg on a NG ! |
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