I and probably others would also contribute to pirate-victims relief, if
we knew how to do so.

Bad, bad Columbia is not new. Tristan Jones the cruiser/author railed about
the deadly North Coast and recommended dynamite. Eastern Mexico, oh well,
....

LS

Larry Starr wrote:

I and probably others would also contribute to pirate-victims relief, if
we knew how to do so.

For sure! But the tale got me wondering why are so few are into self
defense? If there was time to hop out, lock the hatch then hop back in
there'd have been time for two armed determined persons to kill all of
the pirates. I'm not talking waving a gun and asking them to leave, I'm
talking a quick deadly ambush as in bang, bang, bang - woops one still
moving - bang again - followed by "break out the champaign Honey, we got
'm all in under 10 seconds"! What'd likely happen had the couple done
that and simply sailed away? Not exactly a clean wake but ....

Seems that, worst case, Colombian officials might pursue them when/if
the bodies washed up. What's U.S. Government/ Navy policy on protecting
US ships pursued by foreign gunboats on the high seas?

What are the legal issues pertaining to having a couple shotguns aboard
a US registered cruising yacht - provided, of course, you never took
them ashore?

Howard

Oh boy, here we go again on the guns on board vs. no guns on
board issue. This has been pretty well worked over in the past,
but...

To summarize as I understand it: When you clear into most countries
you are required to declare any firearms, and in many countries they
are impounded until you clear out. In some countries your guns may also
disappear from the impound area mysteriously, which means they can't be
found when you come back to claim them and clear out. The official just
shrugs. No one has any idea what happened to them.

So:

a) Your guns won't do you any good in a customs impound storage locker.
b) You may not get them back when you leave
c) Even if you get them back, you will have to come back to the port
you left them at to clear out.
d) Getting caught with undeclared guns will get you tossed into the
local jail in a lot of countries (Mexico for sure).
e) If you did use your undeclared gun in a 3rd world country, and you killed
a local in self-defense you are in for a _major_ hassle, including
most probably a long stay in their jail while you await trial, and
possibly the presumption that you are guilty of murder unless you
can _prove_ otherwise
f) If you kill someone with your undeclared gun, and then leave without
clearing out... hmmm... I don't think you want to go there. My guess
is that you are arrested at your next stop and extradited back to the
country that you fled. I'll bet even the USA would extradite you back
to Columbia to face a charge of murder.

These people were lucky that they had a steel boat with serious hatches
so that they could resist for a while. And they are also lucky that they
didn't get shot or cut up by the bad guys. Notice the MACE didn't help
at all.

Reading their story made me wonder whether you could put together a legal
and _effective_ defense system using things you can already carry legally.

Electrify the topside of the boat with a 220/440VAC inverter? On a steel boat
this has many possibilities given judicious application of conductive paint or
uncoated stainless steel in the right places. You might have to be extra careful
of galvanic corrosion problems You'd also have to be careful not to fry
yourself. What else?

Don W.


Vito wrote:

Larry Starr wrote:

I and probably others would also contribute to pirate-victims relief, if
we knew how to do so.

For sure! But the tale got me wondering why are so few are into self
defense? If there was time to hop out, lock the hatch then hop back in
there'd have been time for two armed determined persons to kill all of
the pirates. I'm not talking waving a gun and asking them to leave, I'm
talking a quick deadly ambush as in bang, bang, bang - woops one still
moving - bang again - followed by "break out the champaign Honey, we got
'm all in under 10 seconds"! What'd likely happen had the couple done
that and simply sailed away? Not exactly a clean wake but ....

Seems that, worst case, Colombian officials might pursue them when/if
the bodies washed up. What's U.S. Government/ Navy policy on protecting
US ships pursued by foreign gunboats on the high seas?

What are the legal issues pertaining to having a couple shotguns aboard
a US registered cruising yacht - provided, of course, you never took
them ashore?

Howard

"Don W." wrote:

To summarize as I understand it: When you clear into most countries
you are required to declare any firearms, and in many countries they
are impounded until you clear out.

I'm admittedly ignorant of these laws.

What's involved in clearing in/out? When do/don't you need to do it? Do
you have to clear into each country you sail by without stopping if you
come within xx of land? If you anchor off shore and paddle in to (say)
get a tooth filled and buy some lemons do you need to declare everything
left aboard (eg, your gun, camera and jewelry) even if it's never
brought ashore?

TIA
Howard

Vito wrote:

I'm admittedly ignorant of these laws.

What's involved in clearing in/out? When do/don't you need to do it?
Do you have to clear into each country you sail by without stopping
if you come within xx of land? If you anchor off shore and paddle in
to (say) get a tooth filled and buy some lemons do you need to
declare everything left aboard (eg, your gun, camera and jewelry)
even if it's never brought ashore?

Normally when you arrive in a country you must hoist a quarantine flag
and a port official either comes to the boat or the captain goes ashore
with all the passports and ships papers. The process can be simple or
astoundingly frustrating depending on the country, the attitude of the
clearing official and how popular the port is with cruisers. Most
places you must declare weapons but the contents of the boat are not
normally listed. You must not venture on shore any more than necessary
to clear customs. In an emergency some places might let you clear after
the emergency is handled but a tooth ache would definitely not qualify.

When you leave most countries require you to clear out and issue a
Zarpe which is a certification that you left in good standing. Some
countries want to see the Zarpe from your last port before you can clear in.

As to sailing through without landing, that is a good question. Most
places clearing is not necessary if you are just passing through their
waters but I would be interested to know what the Bahamian policy is on
that. On deliveries back from the BVI we usually break it into 4 long
legs stopping at Boqueron, PR, Luperon, DR and Georgetown. If it is
going to cost us $500 to stop in Georgetown we will probably just sail
right on through. If they still want our money we will have to go up
the Old Bahamas Channel and the west side of the bank. Sure hope Cuba
opens up before then 'cause Cap Haitian to Ft. Lauderdale is a long slog.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn has put in pretty well -- any generalization is going to be
false. In Western Samoa we had six officials aboard to clear us in
(IIRC: Health, Agriculture, Immigration, Customs, Security,
Harbormaster) and it was largely a formality, done in ten minutes.
Fiji took 38 different pieces of paper to clear in and out (about 80
copies all told -- don't forget the carbon paper). In Spain, on the
other hand, we couldn't find an offical interested in doing anything.

In about 40% of the countries, they come to the boat. In the balance,
the Captain, alone, goes ashore -- in Singapore the office is all the
way across the island from the marina we were in -- good rapid transit
there, though.

In maybe 30% the boat is never "in" the country, so you go through
passport control at the port gate each time you go ashore. These
usually require you to stay in one or a very limited number of ports
-- no cruising.

As for passing through, the right of free passage is a basic
international law, so that generally you can pass through a strait
without stopping and without checking into the country that owns both
sides. This is well established in some places (the Bosporus, for
example), but, again, take nothing for granted.

We've stopped overnight several places without checking in, but the
general rule is that if the hook is down, you'd better have checked
in. Exceptions are sometimes tolerated where the wind dictates a
particular route (the easternmost Marquesas, for example), but Fiji,
with the same situation in the Lau group, is very tough on it.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message ...
Vito wrote:

I'm admittedly ignorant of these laws.

What's involved in clearing in/out? When do/don't you need to do it?
Do you have to clear into each country you sail by without stopping
if you come within xx of land? If you anchor off shore and paddle in
to (say) get a tooth filled and buy some lemons do you need to
declare everything left aboard (eg, your gun, camera and jewelry)
even if it's never brought ashore?

Normally when you arrive in a country you must hoist a quarantine flag
and a port official either comes to the boat or the captain goes ashore
with all the passports and ships papers. The process can be simple or
astoundingly frustrating depending on the country, the attitude of the
clearing official and how popular the port is with cruisers. Most
places you must declare weapons but the contents of the boat are not
normally listed. You must not venture on shore any more than necessary
to clear customs. In an emergency some places might let you clear after
the emergency is handled but a tooth ache would definitely not qualify.

When you leave most countries require you to clear out and issue a
Zarpe which is a certification that you left in good standing. Some
countries want to see the Zarpe from your last port before you can clear in.

As to sailing through without landing, that is a good question. Most
places clearing is not necessary if you are just passing through their
waters but I would be interested to know what the Bahamian policy is on
that. On deliveries back from the BVI we usually break it into 4 long
legs stopping at Boqueron, PR, Luperon, DR and Georgetown. If it is
going to cost us $500 to stop in Georgetown we will probably just sail
right on through. If they still want our money we will have to go up
the Old Bahamas Channel and the west side of the bank. Sure hope Cuba
opens up before then 'cause Cap Haitian to Ft. Lauderdale is a long slog.

No easy answers really... If you show a gun then you have to be willing to
kill, immediately, without hesitation, or it will be taken away and used on
you...

Short of killing: Mace is essentially worthless... A determined individual
can ignore it... The pepper sprays that police and military have are
effective... You may have to do a bit of searching and begging, but if you
are determined you can get the police strength stuff... No one can walk
through this industrial strength pepper spray if you get them in the face...
They will hit the deck, guaranteed...
A conductive pattern glassed to the deck that can be electrified with a
electric fence charger - get the type intended for bulls and with the weed
burner capability - will definitely be a deterrent to the first one hopping
aboard with wet shoes or bare feet. Sandals cut from old car tires probably
will resist the electric, though... . Having the lifeline around the deck
charged will help significantly. Having a charge on the hatch
handles/padlocks will help...
A less lethal firearm that is legal in most countries is the flare gun... A
variety of 12 gauge projectiles can be had for that, including my favorite a
12 gauge trap shooting cartridge with the BB's removed and filled with rock
salt...
The new laser/strobe lights with the blinding, blue-green light are quite
effective at forcing people to back off, giving you time to them hit them
with the pepper spray... A Taser is very effective at stopping someone
temporarily...
The biggest problem you will face is what to do if they don't withdraw after
they are sprayed or shocked... At that time you may have to resort to
lethal force... Also, it is a lot tougher once they have boarded, to get
them to back off...

My best recommendation is a high pressure water pump, the 3000 psi variety,
preventing them from boarding as long as they don't have guns...I use one
for washing down the bulldozers, the barns, etc., and they will reach out 20
feet and literally knock you down... I have treated wounds from getting a
hand in front of these high pressure sprays and they can be nasty... You
will have the issue of making sure the engine will start on the first pull
and run reliably...

Finally, the best cure is prevention... Simply do not sail in the parts of
the world where these attacks are reported... You may feel that this denies
you the right to pass wherever in the world you choose... The scum out
there that intend to steal, rape, and murder don't care about your rights.

Denny

"Don W." wrote in message
...
Oh boy, here we go again on the guns on board vs. no guns on