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Dual Shore Power hook up question

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Except:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_FAQ/right_of_way.htm

I guess you need a refresher.

Then you guess wrong. Rule 9 para(a) (iii) INLAND RULES. Not INTERNATIONAL
RULES.

I suspect you and I are a few minutes out of sync with each other with this
discussion.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Rule 9 para(a) (iii)

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
No there isn't. Please cite that rule for us.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Actually there is a Right of Way provision in the rules. This must be
one of the rules you don't know.

Dual Shore Power hook up question

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Gerald" wrote in
Somewhat.

Not a genious. I just KNOW the rules ---- not just
'somewhat' know them ---
whatever the **** that means.

it means that I'm not a big pompous ass who claims to know
ALL the rules.

And proud of it I assume... There arent that many of them.

Dual Shore Power hook up question

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:12:32 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:

Yes, I've seen stinkpotters act rude to their own kind.

Rudeness does not favor or follow any particular vessel type, and then
there is another category which I refer to as clueless. It is not
partial either.

Dual Shore Power hook up question

Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:04:08 +0200, Lars Kristensen
wrote:

If the powerboats kept well clear of the sailboat

There is no requirement for anyone to keep "well clear".

Properly not but it would solve all the problems.

I do not know the exact words of the rules and certainly not the rules
in US but, I'll bet there is metioned something like pass in as safe
distance and speed as possible. Passing a sailboat within 10 m with 20+
knots is not safe. And certainly not if you for some reason would expect
the sailboat to tack or change course - reasons like shallow water, wind
shift etc.
If not in the rules... Well, keeping clear and pass in a safe distance
and speed is what I would call good seamanship. Here in Denmark we are
obligatet to practice good seamanship. To us it means follow the rules
when it is safe to do so. If no rules state how to act or when its not
safe to act the way the rules states then act in the safest possible way
and do it in a way that nobody is in doubt what your intetions are with
your manoeuvers.

Is it really that hard to respect eachother?

Yes, I do sail powerboats and sailboats (racing and pleassure). And yes,
not all danish sailors follows what is written above. I guess we have
our share of jack ass powerboaters and sail sailors as well...

Regards
Lars

Dual Shore Power hook up question

Well Said Lars. The first and most important rule
of boating, aviation, automobiles,... and probably
skydiving as well: Rule 1) Don't hit anything.

Don W.

Lars Kristensen wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:04:08 +0200, Lars Kristensen
wrote:

If the powerboats kept well clear of the sailboat

There is no requirement for anyone to keep "well clear".

Properly not but it would solve all the problems.

I do not know the exact words of the rules and certainly not the rules
in US but, I'll bet there is metioned something like pass in as safe
distance and speed as possible. Passing a sailboat within 10 m with 20+
knots is not safe. And certainly not if you for some reason would expect
the sailboat to tack or change course - reasons like shallow water, wind
shift etc.
If not in the rules... Well, keeping clear and pass in a safe distance
and speed is what I would call good seamanship. Here in Denmark we are
obligatet to practice good seamanship. To us it means follow the rules
when it is safe to do so. If no rules state how to act or when its not
safe to act the way the rules states then act in the safest possible way
and do it in a way that nobody is in doubt what your intetions are with
your manoeuvers.

Is it really that hard to respect eachother?

Yes, I do sail powerboats and sailboats (racing and pleassure). And yes,
not all danish sailors follows what is written above. I guess we have
our share of jack ass powerboaters and sail sailors as well...

Regards
Lars

Dual Shore Power hook up question

Gerald wrote:
"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
The power boat culture is not like the sailboat society. They can rock
your
sailboat with a big wake and wave their hands at you with a smile

Bill Kearney wrote:
Or just blindly tack directly in front of another vessel and then whine
about "right of way" having not taken at least the slightest look around
first.

Why attribute "tacking in front of another vessel" to blindness? Could it
be a windshift, shoaling water, engaged in racing?

Neither windshift or racing afford a sailboat any special privleges under
the rules.

If you had a clue, you wouldn't think that sailboats "tack blindly" or at
random, much less think they were under any obligation to keep clear of
motor vessels.

Many sailors think they always have "right-of-way" over powerboats. The
rules DO discuss a few situations where sailboats are the Stand On Vessel.
While these few cases are probably the most common situations most people
deal with on a day-to-basis - mostly crossing --- the situations in the
rules where a sailboat may be the Give Way vessel are more numerous. Many
sailors seem to operate onder the "Sail over Power" concept that does not (I
don't think ever did) exist. Sailboats are frequently under obligation to
stay clear of motor vessels.

Boo Hoo!

If you ever sailed, you would understand why it seems, wrongly, that
sailors essentially ignore powerboats.

It ain't so, but it boils down to the same thing.

As well, remember that nothing in the rules prevents, as a general
rule, any vessel from going to where they are going, which may not be a
point of interest for some one in a high speed power conveyance.

Tough. It's a fact of life that sailors have many encumberances to
their freedom to navigate, unlike power driven vessels who can easily
avoid sailors, who need never fear that a sailor will ever persue them
to harrass them or collide with them or "wake" them or splash them or
manouver to take their picture advantageously.

Sailors must do some of the things you seem to take as malicious
mischief.

That is why the rules seem to create, and actually do create, an
environment where power boats are expected to steer around sailboats.
We are helpless against your power and especially against your
ignorance.

It's tough, but you can do it. You will do it. It's the law, and
rightly so, and for good reasons proved over many years of litigation
in admiralty court and agreed by all or most of the national
governments of the world who border on water. You are not expected to
understand, but you must comply.

We sailors cannot ensure it, but even so most of us do our best not to
embarrass power boaters who aren't looking or thinking, though we are
having enough trouble keeping clear of shallows, rocks, swimmers,
deadheads and other sailboats, with all of our dependance on wind
shifts you don't even notice, depth requirements you don't think about,
and slavishness to 3 knot currents that mean nothing to you.

Our passion is to enjoy nature on the water, not to plow through it at
speed. Consider us as hazards on a golf course. Be a sport.

Don't hog all the dock outlets, either.

Terry K

Dual Shore Power hook up question

Terry K wrote:

That is why the rules seem to create, and actually do create, an
environment where power boats are expected to steer around sailboats.
We are helpless against your power and especially against your
ignorance.

Tell me, o great genius, how 100 tons is going to turn on a sixpence to
avoid you when you decide to change tack at the last moment.
Put it another way, the lights are turning green but you see a big truck
doing sixty mph and about to jump the red. You may have right of way,
but pulling out in your little car is NOT a clever idea.

Our passion is to enjoy nature on the water, not to plow through it at
speed. Consider us as hazards on a golf course. Be a sport.

So go play on a little lake somewhere. The sea is a dangerous place for
dingy sailors.

Many sailing rigs are a helluva lot faster than the 10 knots that a
typical displacement motor yacht can pull. Small sailing boats are also
much more manouverable.

Don't hog all the dock outlets, either.

Does your little sailboat really need a 3 phase 420 volt outlet ?.

Dual Shore Power hook up question

"Terry K" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gerald wrote:
snip

Many sailors think they always have "right-of-way" over powerboats. The
rules DO discuss a few situations where sailboats are the Stand On
Vessel.
While these few cases are probably the most common situations most people
deal with on a day-to-basis - mostly crossing --- the situations in the
rules where a sailboat may be the Give Way vessel are more numerous.
Many
sailors seem to operate onder the "Sail over Power" concept that does not
(I
don't think ever did) exist. Sailboats are frequently under obligation
to
stay clear of motor vessels.

Boo Hoo!

If you ever sailed, you would understand why it seems, wrongly, that
sailors essentially ignore powerboats.

I have been a sailor for many more years than a stinkpotter and I have no
idea what the hell that means. There are some sailors that are as dumb as a
stump. There are some powerboaters that are as dumb as a stump. In either
camp their are varying degrees of smart.

Tough. It's a fact of life that sailors have many encumberances to
their freedom to navigate, unlike power driven vessels who can easily
avoid sailors, who need never fear that a sailor will ever persue them
to harrass them or collide with them or "wake" them or splash them or
manouver to take their picture advantageously.

If you feel that you have many encumberances to your freedom to navigate,
perhaps you need to either learn how to sail safely, or get another hobby.
In my lifetime of sailing I have never allowed a situation where I felt
helpless. I suspect I should feel sorry for you???

Sailors must do some of the things you seem to take as malicious
mischief.

They may "choose" to do such things, I am not aware of what things the
"must do". I my lifetime of sailing, many thousands of miles inland and
offshore, I have never "had" to make a maneuver that forced another vessel
to take an action in response (other than busting balls during a race ---
but that is a different set of rules). You need to get a few minutes out in
front of your situation and anticipate stuff.

That is why the rules seem to create, and actually do create, an
environment where power boats are expected to steer around sailboats.

Generally true. There are, however, various other rules that make the
sailboat the giveway vessle.

We are helpless against your power and especially against your
ignorance.

Please speak for your self helpless one. I have always been able to take
care of myself. Interesting that you suggest that all sailors are a bunch
of helpless wennies ... I don't think they are.

We sailors cannot ensure it, but even so most of us do our best not to
embarrass power boaters who aren't looking or thinking, though we are
having enough trouble keeping clear of shallows, rocks,

How hard is this for you? Do you have charts? Do you plan your trip? How
far ahead of your track line is your knowledge? Do you discover shallow
spots and rocks through the braille method? And just what the hell does any
of that have to do with sailing?

swimmers,

Where the hell are you sailing that you are dodging powerboaters and
swimmers???

deadheads and other sailboats,

Which of course only sailors need to do ...

with all of our dependance on wind
shifts you don't even notice,

True on the one hand the wind does shift. As a sailing vessel you are
normally the stand on vessel relative to a power vessel. As a stand on
vessel you are REQUIRED Rule 17(a) to maintain your course and speed. If
you are the stand on vessel, you cannot suddenly tack in front of a
powerboat and expect the rules to be 100% on your side --- you violated your
obligations. Note that the rules do not say that you must maintain your
course and speed except when the wind shifts, or the water gets too shallow,
or whatever else your problem may be.

depth requirements you don't think about,
and slavishness to 3 knot currents that mean nothing to you.

Why wouldn't I? My full displacement trawler had a 5 1/2 foot draft. Being
a full displacement vessle, it is limited in speed by the same physics as
displacement sailboats. Many larger offshore sportfish have big ass props
hanging down fairly deep and un protected. If one of those babies hits
bottom, it can get a lot more expensive than you dragging your keel. I
witnessed one of these guys hit a shallow spot ... drove the prob shaft
strut right through the bottom of the boat ... boat was on the bottom in
less than 5 minutes --- total loss. I am sure he would like do discuss
depth requirements with you.

God you are a victim.

Our passion is to enjoy nature on the water, not to plow through it at
speed.

Consider us as hazards on a golf course.

Per your request, I will certainly consider you to be one. I consider most
other sailors to be equals and future trawler owners.

Don't hog all the dock outlets, either.

Gotta keep all those air conditioners, refrigerators and 42" hidef plasma
TVs running you know...

Terry K

Dual Shore Power hook up question

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:04:17 -0400, "Gerald"
wrote:

Gotta keep all those air conditioners, refrigerators and 42" hidef plasma
TVs running you know...

You are forgetting the deep freeze (full of steak and Hagen Daz ice
cream), the ice maker, the washer/drier, microwave oven, the internet
adapters, the DVD player, satellite dish, electric blanket.... :-)

Dual Shore Power hook up question

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:04:17 -0400, "Gerald"
wrote:

Gotta keep all those air conditioners, refrigerators and 42" hidef plasma
TVs running you know...

You are forgetting the deep freeze (full of steak and Hagen Daz ice
cream), the ice maker, the washer/drier, microwave oven, the internet
adapters, the DVD player, satellite dish, electric blanket.... :-)

No, no, no.... Ben and Jerrys.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Dual Shore Power hook up question

Gerald wrote:
.... I my lifetime of sailing, many thousands of miles inland and
offshore, I have never "had" to make a maneuver that forced another vessel
to take an action in response

I guess you never sailed a boat with no engine in channel.

True on the one hand the wind does shift. As a sailing vessel you are
normally the stand on vessel relative to a power vessel. As a stand on
vessel you are REQUIRED Rule 17(a) to maintain your course and speed.

Unless, of course, that is impossible.

... Note that the rules do not say that you must maintain your
course and speed except when the wind shifts, or the water gets too shallow,
or whatever else your problem may be.

What a stupid thing to say. If the water "becomes too
shallow" then
1- you will most certainly not maintain speed, no matter hwo
you try to maintain course
2- under the rules, you are then constrained by draft.

DSK

Dual Shore Power hook up question

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Gerald wrote:
.... I my lifetime of sailing, many thousands of miles inland and
offshore, I have never "had" to make a maneuver that forced another
vessel to take an action in response

I guess you never sailed a boat with no engine in channel.

Small day sail boats through various access channels around the Long Island
Sound area. Other than that all sailboats had power. Being in a small day
sailboat, and not always prepared to meet my maker, I plan my passage
carefully. I genuinely do not like surprises.

True on the one hand the wind does shift. As a sailing vessel you are
normally the stand on vessel relative to a power vessel. As a stand on
vessel you are REQUIRED Rule 17(a) to maintain your course and speed.

Unless, of course, that is impossible.

No, the rule does not say "Unless, of course, that is impossible".

... Note that the rules do not say that you must maintain your course
and speed except when the wind shifts, or the water gets too shallow, or
whatever else your problem may be.

What a stupid thing to say. If the water "becomes too shallow" then
1- you will most certainly not maintain speed, no matter hwo you try to
maintain course

Certainly not if you run aground. Are you unfamiliar with the water you are
sailing in? Do you have charts? Are you a graduate of the "Sail by
Braille" school?

2- under the rules, you are then constrained by draft.

DO YOU EVER READ THE RULES????????

"Constrained by draft" is a term that apples ONLY to power-driven vessles in
INTERNATIONAL waters. See Rule 3(h) INTERNATIONAL. Constrained by draft does
not exist in the INLAND rules. Good grief DSK!!!! It is no longer amazing to
me that you have such problems....

DSK

Dual Shore Power hook up question

.... As a stand on
vessel you are REQUIRED Rule 17(a) to maintain your course and speed.

Unless, of course, that is impossible.

Gerald wrote:
No, the rule does not say "Unless, of course, that is impossible".

Well, I guess if the rules can require the impossible, then
why not demand burdened vessels to lift straight up in the
air, to get out of your way?

Don't be absurd, the ColRegs cannot require a vessel to
perform an impossible maneuver.

... Note that the rules do not say that you must maintain your course
and speed except when the wind shifts, or the water gets too shallow, or
whatever else your problem may be.

What a stupid thing to say. If the water "becomes too shallow" then
1- you will most certainly not maintain speed, no matter hwo you try to
maintain course

Certainly not if you run aground. Are you unfamiliar with the water you are
sailing in? Do you have charts? Are you a graduate of the "Sail by
Braille" school?

No to all the above.

OTOH if you haven't run aground, you've never been anywhere.

2- under the rules, you are then constrained by draft.

DO YOU EVER READ THE RULES????????

Yes

"Constrained by draft" is a term that apples ONLY to power-driven vessles

Bull****.

I think I see the problem here....

DSK

Dual Shore Power hook up question

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
.... As a stand on vessel you are REQUIRED Rule 17(a) to maintain your
course and speed.

Unless, of course, that is impossible.

Gerald wrote:
No, the rule does not say "Unless, of course, that is impossible".

Well, I guess if the rules can require the impossible, then why not demand
burdened vessels to lift straight up in the air, to get out of your way?

Don't be absurd, the ColRegs cannot require a vessel to perform an
impossible maneuver.

No, they can not and do not require the impossible. In fact they specify
very few maneuvers. There are an infinite number of specific situations
that you and I can propose that the rules do not specifically cover. In the
absence of specific guidance from the rules, good seamanship, common sense
and safety must rule. You seem to get real hung up on the situation where
you might have to tack into the path of a powerboat. Generally speaking, if
you find your self in this situation, it is probably due to your failure to
anticipate. Yes, **** does happen, sometimes a deadhead will magically
appear in your path. If you do tack directly in front of a powerboat
because the wind shifts, good luck. Good luck on surviving, and good luck
in court.

... Note that the rules do not say that you must maintain your course
and speed except when the wind shifts, or the water gets too shallow, or
whatever else your problem may be.

What a stupid thing to say. If the water "becomes too shallow" then
1- you will most certainly not maintain speed, no matter hwo you try to
maintain course

Certainly not if you run aground. Are you unfamiliar with the water you
are sailing in? Do you have charts? Are you a graduate of the "Sail by
Braille" school?

No to all the above.

OTOH if you haven't run aground, you've never been anywhere.

True, but irrelevant.

2- under the rules, you are then constrained by draft.

DO YOU EVER READ THE RULES????????

Yes

"Constrained by draft" is a term that apples ONLY to power-driven vessles

Bull****.

Oh come on ... look at the definition in the rule book. "Constrained by
Draft" only applies to power-driven vessels in INTERNATIONAL water. There
is no such thing as "constrained by draft" in the inland rules. Now if you
want to discuss "draft in relation to the depth of available water" as
factor in determining "Safe Speed" - Rule 6 that is different.

Dual Shore Power hook up question

In article ,
Chris Newport wrote:

That is why the rules seem to create, and actually do create, an
environment where power boats are expected to steer around sailboats.
We are helpless against your power and especially against your
ignorance.

Tell me, o great genius, how 100 tons is going to turn on a sixpence to
avoid you when you decide to change tack at the last moment.
Put it another way, the lights are turning green but you see a big truck
doing sixty mph and about to jump the red. You may have right of way,
but pulling out in your little car is NOT a clever idea.

Get a clue. We're talking recreational vs recreational.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Dual Shore Power hook up question

Jere Lull wrote:
In article ,
Chris Newport wrote:

That is why the rules seem to create, and actually do create, an
environment where power boats are expected to steer around sailboats.
We are helpless against your power and especially against your
ignorance.

Tell me, o great genius, how 100 tons is going to turn on a sixpence to
avoid you when you decide to change tack at the last moment.
Put it another way, the lights are turning green but you see a big truck
doing sixty mph and about to jump the red. You may have right of way,
but pulling out in your little car is NOT a clever idea.

Get a clue. We're talking recreational vs recreational.

So am I, 100 tons is about right for a large private motor yacht.
Not everyone messes about in little dingys. This is rec.boats.CRUISING
not rec.boats.messing_about_in_things_that_belong_in_c alm_water.