Hi, Wayne, and group,

Rather than hijack this thread, see my separate post "Skip and Lydia's
Excellent Adventure Update" posted some time soon :{))

L8R

Skip and Lydia, shortly to be of no fixed address, no itinerary, no
schedule

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,
messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Jim wrote in
.net:

My 20 year old "Pro Mariner" charger does overcharge and boil the
batteries.

A modern 3 stage charger might be a good investment.


Yes...that's a good idea.

Wayne.B wrote in
:

I believe they are rated at 220 Amp-Hours, 20 amp rate.

Does it say 20 Amps or 20 hour rate??

20 hours would be 11 amps, right?

Way too many boaters believe it'll put out 220A for 1 hour....

It won't.

A day of learning:

Two 6 volt, 220 amp batteries joined to make one 12 volt battery has 220
amps. Even though the guy at the battery store told me otherwise.

My old 8Ds had a rating of 215 amps. 220/215, not much gain there.

The cost of the 6 volt batteries is about 1/2 the cost of an 8D. A
little more or a little less. $65 + $65 = $130. 8D, $140. Not much
gain there.

What this means is that there is little gained, initially, by going with
the golf cart batteries. Since I have to buy battery boxes, it will
cost me more.

The golf cart batteries SHOULD be good for many more deep discharges
than the 8D. The golf cart batteries are easier to move around, and
have a smaller foot print. The battery boxes have more options for
dimensions.

I'm buying the golf cart batteries from a battery store. A few dollars
higher than Costco. Five dollars each battery. I get the cables free
from the battery store, so it's actually cheaper than Costco.

I'm upgrading my charger to a Xantrex "True Charge" 40 amp, 3 stage
charger. The "Equalizer" function is important to maintain the batteries.

The old battery boiler charger is going in the trash.

Jim wrote in
ink.net:

I'm upgrading my charger to a Xantrex "True Charge" 40 amp, 3 stage
charger. The "Equalizer" function is important to maintain the
batteries.



The batteries only need 20A, so that leaves you with 20A of load current
while the charger is on.

The battery store guy should know better. 220 ampere-hours has nothing
to do with 220 amps. Ampere-Hour is a measure of the stored energy in
the battery. The "rating" only holds true for ONE load, the load that
drains it in 20 hours (that's about standard in the battery biz). 11
amps will drain it in 20 hours, so that would be the "standard load" for
this battery. The slower you discharge it, the more ampere-hours of
energy it will produce, way beyond its rating. The FASTER you discharge
it, more than 11 amps, the LESS its ampere-hour capacity is at that load.
This is caused by chemistry and physics. The chemistry is the speed at
which the acid can eat away at the soft lead plate's surface area.
Quickly discharging it with a heavy load, the acid by the plate is
quickly consumed into lead sulphate ions in suspension, blocking more
acid from attacking the plate surface. So, it's not some incredible
limit. Starting batteries overcome this problem with an incredible
number of plates producing an incredible surface area that can produce an
incredible instantaneous current.....but for a price. To keep the
physical battery size, the plates have to be very thin. Their amp-hour
rating is actually very low, as anyone who has been cranking a dead motor
for a few minutes when the lights go out can attest. Deep discharge
batteries use thick plates with lots of lead to eat and much more acid to
eat them....at a slower rate, 20 hours standard. At 50A, and I'm only
guessing as I don't have a chart in front of me but you can find them on
the net, the AH rating of the 220 AH battery is probably about half,
maybe a little more. Well, you get the picture. It's not a bottomless
pit of power, actually kind of small for its weight.

Nice charger, but you'll only see 40A charging them for a few minutes
before the charge quickly tapers off to a safe charging level below 20A.
If you never discharge them below specific gravity of 1.125, they'll last
a long time.

Jim wrote in news:ANErg.4757$ye3.3213
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

The old battery boiler charger is going in the trash.



Darn....Where do you live? I might try to get it! The 40A heavy duty
charger in my stepvan that charges the house batteries from my Honda 3KW
inverter-genset is the original OEM charger from my friend's Amel Sharki
French ketch. It's one of the finest battery chargers I ever had, but you
must regulate it manually through its 3 steps...low, medium and bigtime...
(c;

That old charger is a great battery charger IF you take the time to TIME
its charging. It's just a rotten float charger for a boat.....

The one under my desk rarely drops off past 20A, charging the 1930's
vintage Edison Nickel-Iron-Potassium Hydroxide telephone cells under the
house. That's the "house house batteries" here in hurricane country.

POWER is REALLY our friend when the powerlines all lay in the street!

Larry wrote:
Jim wrote in
ink.net:


I'm upgrading my charger to a Xantrex "True Charge" 40 amp, 3 stage
charger. The "Equalizer" function is important to maintain the
batteries.




The batteries only need 20A, so that leaves you with 20A of load current
while the charger is on.


The specs call for the 20 to charge a bank 100 to 400 amps. the 40
calls for 400 +

I will have 440. I know it's ONLY 105 over . . .my thinking is to buy
the right one the first time.
The battery store guy should know better.

He said two 6v 220 amp batteries will give 12v, 440 amps.

220 ampere-hours has nothing
to do with 220 amps. Ampere-Hour is a measure of the stored energy in
the battery. The "rating" only holds true for ONE load, the load that
drains it in 20 hours (that's about standard in the battery biz). 11
amps will drain it in 20 hours, so that would be the "standard load" for
this battery. The slower you discharge it, the more ampere-hours of
energy it will produce, way beyond its rating. The FASTER you discharge
it, more than 11 amps, the LESS its ampere-hour capacity is at that load.
This is caused by chemistry and physics. The chemistry is the speed at
which the acid can eat away at the soft lead plate's surface area.
Quickly discharging it with a heavy load, the acid by the plate is
quickly consumed into lead sulphate ions in suspension, blocking more
acid from attacking the plate surface. So, it's not some incredible
limit. Starting batteries overcome this problem with an incredible
number of plates producing an incredible surface area that can produce an
incredible instantaneous current.....but for a price. To keep the
physical battery size, the plates have to be very thin. Their amp-hour
rating is actually very low, as anyone who has been cranking a dead motor
for a few minutes when the lights go out can attest. Deep discharge
batteries use thick plates with lots of lead to eat and much more acid to
eat them....at a slower rate, 20 hours standard. At 50A, and I'm only
guessing as I don't have a chart in front of me but you can find them on
the net, the AH rating of the 220 AH battery is probably about half,
maybe a little more. Well, you get the picture. It's not a bottomless
pit of power, actually kind of small for its weight.

Nice charger, but you'll only see 40A charging them for a few minutes
before the charge quickly tapers off to a safe charging level below 20A.
If you never discharge them below specific gravity of 1.125, they'll last
a long time.

Larry wrote:
. . .
Nice charger, but you'll only see 40A charging them for a few minutes
before the charge quickly tapers off to a safe charging level below 20A.

Hmm. Assuming 2 6v Trojan T-105s or equivalent (or an 8D), 220ah
capacity, discharged 50%, a 40 amp charge rate is only 20% of the
bank's capacity, quite safe. The bank probably won't even get warm.
If you're in a hurry, charging at a 40% rate, 80 amps (typical
alternator output), would shorten the life of the bank slightly, and
warm things up a bit, but still would be a "safe" charging rate.

A 40 amp charger should put out 40 amps for two hours or so, before the
rising voltage causes the charger to start tapering off (70%-80%
charged) down ultimately to 5 to 10 amps or so ( 2% to 5% of bank
capacity, depending on age and battery design), where it should stay
for a half hour or so (14.4 volts, Trojan says 14.8!), to gas the
batteries for a while to mix the electrolyte thoroughly and bring the
bank up those last few amp-hours to full charge. This is *not* an
equalization charge. Then you can either turn the charger off, or, if
it's smart, it'll drop back to a float charge, 13.2 volts or so, so you
can run stuff without discharging the bank.

OTOH, if you're hooked up to shore power and have all night to charge,
there's nothing wrong with charging at 10% of the bank's capacity (20
amps or so), which will prolong the bank's service life slightly. But
there's nothing *unsafe* about an initial 40 amp (20% of capacity)
charge rate on a discharged bank.

Jim wrote:
A day of learning:

Two 6 volt, 220 amp batteries joined to make one 12 volt battery has 220
amps. Even though the guy at the battery store told me otherwise.

My old 8Ds had a rating of 215 amps. 220/215, not much gain there.

The cost of the 6 volt batteries is about 1/2 the cost of an 8D. A
little more or a little less. $65 + $65 = $130. 8D, $140. Not much
gain there.

What this means is that there is little gained, initially, by going with
the golf cart batteries. Since I have to buy battery boxes, it will
cost me more.

The golf cart batteries SHOULD be good for many more deep discharges
than the 8D. The golf cart batteries are easier to move around, and
have a smaller foot print. The battery boxes have more options for
dimensions.

I'm buying the golf cart batteries from a battery store. A few dollars
higher than Costco. Five dollars each battery. I get the cables free
from the battery store, so it's actually cheaper than Costco.

I'm upgrading my charger to a Xantrex "True Charge" 40 amp, 3 stage
charger. The "Equalizer" function is important to maintain the batteries.

The old battery boiler charger is going in the trash.


Just curious. How many years did you get
from your old 8Ds and your old charger?

How many more years do you expect to get
from the golf carts and a new charger?

Chuck

chuck wrote:
Jim wrote:

A day of learning:

Two 6 volt, 220 amp batteries joined to make one 12 volt battery has
220 amps. Even though the guy at the battery store told me otherwise.

My old 8Ds had a rating of 215 amps. 220/215, not much gain there.

The cost of the 6 volt batteries is about 1/2 the cost of an 8D. A
little more or a little less. $65 + $65 = $130. 8D, $140. Not much
gain there.

What this means is that there is little gained, initially, by going
with the golf cart batteries. Since I have to buy battery boxes, it
will cost me more.

The golf cart batteries SHOULD be good for many more deep discharges
than the 8D. The golf cart batteries are easier to move around, and
have a smaller foot print. The battery boxes have more options for
dimensions.

I'm buying the golf cart batteries from a battery store. A few
dollars higher than Costco. Five dollars each battery. I get the
cables free from the battery store, so it's actually cheaper than Costco.

I'm upgrading my charger to a Xantrex "True Charge" 40 amp, 3 stage
charger. The "Equalizer" function is important to maintain the
batteries.

The old battery boiler charger is going in the trash.


Just curious. How many years did you get from your old 8Ds and your old
charger?

How many more years do you expect to get from the golf carts and a new
charger?

Chuck
Chuck;
The old batteries were purchased exactly three years ago. Hard to
believe that it has been three years . . .

One cell is bad in one battery because the electrolyte boiled off and
left the cell dry.

While the other battery checks out ok, I'm not going to take it out so I
can replace the battery behind it, then put it back.

If I had replaced my old charger with a new one three years ago I may
not have that dead cell. Of course, if I had watched the water level
closer I may not be replacing it either.

I do check the water level, but obviously not as well as I should have.

How long do I expect the new setup to last? I have heard from a
knowledgeable fellow that his have been in constant use for 7 years, and
are still going strong. And he's been all over the South Pacific in the
last 7 years.

He's the guy who's recommendations I'm going to follow.