On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 23:37:16 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels
change when they became official terrorist targets under the
protection of homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I’ve had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty
and increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is
a large anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to
guide the largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It
isn’t a channel in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the
center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below
cleaning and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was
proceeding down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The
ferry was going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn’t change.
There was plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them
astern and I really didn’t want to tack. I started looking for a head
in the pilot house and couldn’t see any faces so I finally luffed up
which took some finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down
and began to lose rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a
lot like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us
intently without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on
the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and
unobstructed water, I found myself wondering if she could really think
that the rule about vessels in a channel and constrained by their
draft really applied to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn’t luffed or taken some
more dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just
coming up to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would
have avoided any possibility of contact. This was quite out of
character for the outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?

I can only think of three possibilities:

1) the ferry was using rule 9 of colregs.

2) a traffic seprartion zone is in effect (a chart would show that)

3) harbour regulations (would need to see them)

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 23:37:16 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels
change when they became official terrorist targets under the
protection of homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I've had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty
and increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is
a large anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to
guide the largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It
isn't a channel in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the
center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below
cleaning and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was
proceeding down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The
ferry was going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn't change.
There was plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them
astern and I really didn't want to tack. I started looking for a head
in the pilot house and couldn't see any faces so I finally luffed up
which took some finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down
and began to lose rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a
lot like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us
intently without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on
the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and
unobstructed water, I found myself wondering if she could really think
that the rule about vessels in a channel and constrained by their
draft really applied to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn't luffed or taken some
more dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just
coming up to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would
have avoided any possibility of contact. This was quite out of
character for the outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?

I can only think of three possibilities:

1) the ferry was using rule 9 of colregs.

2) a traffic seprartion zone is in effect (a chart would show that)

3) harbour regulations (would need to see them)

On the first and last one cited, I agree. On the traffic separation zone, I
don't think it would make a difference. Just because someone is using the
correct lane for their course, doesn't give them license to ignore the other
rules.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 00:23:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:



On the first and last one cited, I agree. On the traffic separation zone, I
don't think it would make a difference. Just because someone is using the
correct lane for their course, doesn't give them license to ignore the other
rules.


That could depend on the application of Rule 10 (j)

(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel
shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a
traffic lane.

This would not apply as Roger's chart does not show a TSZ.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

Having sailed the Great Lakes for some 60 years I have had ample
experience with the solid stream of freighters... They don't turn,
period... Usually there is not even anyone visible in the bridge
windows...
I long ago developed the attitude that I will immediately turn away as
soon as I see a converging track developing... I am not burning
hundreds of dollars an hour of fuel... I can turn on a dime... I like
tacking... I am sailing for pleasure... Being ground up underneath a
400 foot cement hauler is not my idea of pleasure...
And, likely the person on the bridge (if any) does not speak english
and doesn't particularily like 'rich', 'ugly americans'... Just a fact
of life for a yachtsman... Just because you think the Colregs say you
don't have to turn, doesn't mean you shouldn't...
If I were pulling a fish net or dredging, I would ignore the big guy
and let him make the quivering explanations in the Admiralty Court as
to why he ran someone down... I'm not, so I give way...

denny

That's pretty much my attitude but this "ferry" was smaller and as
maneuverable as a lot of the power yachts in the marinas. Just
having the paint and logo of the larger boats in the fleet doesn't
change the physics. Having just tacked a 32 foot boat alone few
minutes earlier and gotten settled down at the end of a long day with
the weather going downhill fast, I was sort of in the net towing
category you describe.

--

Roger Long



"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Having sailed the Great Lakes for some 60 years I have had ample
experience with the solid stream of freighters... They don't turn,
period... Usually there is not even anyone visible in the bridge
windows...
I long ago developed the attitude that I will immediately turn away
as
soon as I see a converging track developing... I am not burning
hundreds of dollars an hour of fuel... I can turn on a dime... I
like
tacking... I am sailing for pleasure... Being ground up underneath a
400 foot cement hauler is not my idea of pleasure...
And, likely the person on the bridge (if any) does not speak english
and doesn't particularily like 'rich', 'ugly americans'... Just a
fact
of life for a yachtsman... Just because you think the Colregs say
you
don't have to turn, doesn't mean you shouldn't...
If I were pulling a fish net or dredging, I would ignore the big guy
and let him make the quivering explanations in the Admiralty Court
as
to why he ran someone down... I'm not, so I give way...

denny

400' ships have status over a sailing vessel in a restricted situation. I
don't know about the Great Lakes, but I've been in an overtaking situation
with a tanker in the Pacific Ocean. Being prudent, when we spotted her
coming up on the stern, we made ready to change course. However, the tanker
changed course and went around us, as they should according to the rules.

You're right, just because you have rights doesn't mean being foolish.
However, they're not following the rules and should be contacted. What's
wrong with hailing them? I don't think this has anything to do with being a
rich or ugly American. I'm sure the CG wouldn't be averse to reminding them
of their obligations.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Having sailed the Great Lakes for some 60 years I have had ample
experience with the solid stream of freighters... They don't turn,
period... Usually there is not even anyone visible in the bridge
windows...
I long ago developed the attitude that I will immediately turn away as
soon as I see a converging track developing... I am not burning
hundreds of dollars an hour of fuel... I can turn on a dime... I like
tacking... I am sailing for pleasure... Being ground up underneath a
400 foot cement hauler is not my idea of pleasure...
And, likely the person on the bridge (if any) does not speak english
and doesn't particularily like 'rich', 'ugly americans'... Just a fact
of life for a yachtsman... Just because you think the Colregs say you
don't have to turn, doesn't mean you shouldn't...
If I were pulling a fish net or dredging, I would ignore the big guy
and let him make the quivering explanations in the Admiralty Court as
to why he ran someone down... I'm not, so I give way...

denny

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 00:23:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:



On the first and last one cited, I agree. On the traffic separation zone,
I
don't think it would make a difference. Just because someone is using the
correct lane for their course, doesn't give them license to ignore the
other
rules.


That could depend on the application of Rule 10 (j)

(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel
shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a
traffic lane.

This would not apply as Roger's chart does not show a TSZ.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

Interesting... There doesn't appear to be any language about size of vessel
using the separation zone. I can just imagine a skiff claiming rights. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jack Dale" wrote

I can only think of three possibilities:

1) the ferry was using rule 9 of colregs.

Here is the chart with the ferry (excursion boat would be a more
accurate description in this case although it is operated by a ferry
line) shown in red and our course in black. I just read rule 9 and I
would be curious if anyone would think that it applies to a 6 foot
draft vessel near high tide in this case.

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Encounter.jpg


2) a traffic seprartion zone is in effect (a chart would show that)

Not applicable.

3) harbour regulations (would need to see them)

We were outside the harbor.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message news:

Here is the chart with the ferry (excursion boat would be a more
accurate description in this case although it is operated by a ferry
line) shown in red and our course in black. I just read rule 9 and I
would be curious if anyone would think that it applies to a 6 foot
draft vessel near high tide in this case.

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Encounter.jpg


Roger,

From your chart, he/she was definitely following a marked channel. However,
with that draft they were in no way restricted to the channel.
1. Some boaters and especially ferry operators following a normal route,
tend to be "anal" about staying in the channel or along their prescribed
route.

2. Looking at your arrows for your and the other vessels headings, I can see
a possible view that could lead to a misread of your intentions from the
ferry's view..... i.e. that you would soon come left to continue down the
channel.

3. Once again, there are so many possibilities for their
action...............

otn

I wish my point could point well enough to have come left. I'd win
every race I entered!

The easiest action for the ferry to have taken would have been a
slight diversion to the middle of the channel. There was not other
traffic that would have been a factor.

She may have assumed that I would tack to stay in the channel so as to
keep at least 20' of water under my keel

--

Roger Long