"Capt. JG" wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
.. .
Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels change
when they became official terrorist targets under the protection of
homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I've had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty and
increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is a large
anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to guide the
largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It isn't a channel
in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below cleaning
and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was proceeding
down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The ferry was
going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn't change. There was
plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them astern and I
really didn't want to tack. I started looking for a head in the pilot
house and couldn't see any faces so I finally luffed up which took some
finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down and began to lose
rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a lot
like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us intently
without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and unobstructed
water, I found myself wondering if she could really think that the rule
about vessels in a channel and constrained by their draft really applied
to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn't luffed or taken some more
dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just coming up
to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would have avoided
any possibility of contact. This was quite out of character for the
outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?


Roger, despite what the others have said so far, Don and Tom, there are no
special rules that I'm aware of regarding ferries. There are some for
approaching large vessels, but I can't see how they would apply to a ferry
that can have twice or three times your speed on open water. If there are,
I'd love to see a link. We sail with ferries all of the time in the SF bay,
and they know the rules and obey them. We do not change course to avoid
them, unless they're either in front of us and it's an overtaking situation
(damn rare) or coming into or out of a restricted spot, such as the short
channel near the ferry dock.

If I were you, I would have gotten her numbers and given them or the CG a
call.

I had an encounter with a fishing boat coming back to port that was somewhat
similar. We were sailing, they were overtaking and had plenty of room to go
around. Their skipper decided that not being late for dinner was more
important that following the rules, and we barely were able to avoid the
boat, taking evasive action as a last resort after signalling (no time for a
call on the VHF, but I doubt they were listening). I knew who they were and
where they were berthed and discussed the situation with the harbor master
upon our arrival. He had had other complaints about this particular boat,
and promised to look into it. We've seen them out there after this happened
in somewhat similar situations, and they have not failed to give way.

We have had similar situations, although we were almost always under
power but we were being overtaken.

The first one was in mid 2000 - a menhaden boat coming into the
Greater Wicomico to Reedville. We were under sail, but were in the
process of turning on the engine to go into anchor in Mill Creek off
the Great Wicomico. As we were coming in, a large (abt 100 feet) grey
boat came boiling up behind us on the port side. We were on the
starboard side of the channel, but thought since he was overtaking
that he would go around us.

NOT. We finally made a panic circle to the starboard out of the
channel so that he wouldn't ram us. At that point he made a whole
bunch of rapid blasts of his horn.

The second incident was the first time we went down the ICW when we
were on the Elizabeth River in Norfolk in November 2000. The
Elizabeth River ferry paddle wheel came out from his dock and turned
down the river along our port side. He started to pass us and got
almost all the way past, and then decided to come over to the other
side of the river, and turned almost right into us. I thought we
would be skewered. We speeded up so he went behind us.

So a little later on in the trip, when we encountered the Fort Fisher
ferry, we tried to stay out of their way, because these ferries
apparently don't deviate from their track, and the route isn't obvious
on the charts (although it is on the road map)
..

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
. ..
Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels change
when they became official terrorist targets under the protection of
homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I've had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty and
increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is a
large
anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to guide the
largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It isn't a
channel
in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below
cleaning
and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was proceeding
down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The ferry was
going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn't change. There was
plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them astern and I
really didn't want to tack. I started looking for a head in the pilot
house and couldn't see any faces so I finally luffed up which took some
finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down and began to lose
rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a
lot
like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us intently
without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and
unobstructed
water, I found myself wondering if she could really think that the rule
about vessels in a channel and constrained by their draft really applied
to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn't luffed or taken some more
dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just coming up
to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would have avoided
any possibility of contact. This was quite out of character for the
outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?


Roger, despite what the others have said so far, Don and Tom, there are no
special rules that I'm aware of regarding ferries. There are some for
approaching large vessels, but I can't see how they would apply to a ferry
that can have twice or three times your speed on open water. If there are,
I'd love to see a link. We sail with ferries all of the time in the SF
bay,
and they know the rules and obey them. We do not change course to avoid
them, unless they're either in front of us and it's an overtaking
situation
(damn rare) or coming into or out of a restricted spot, such as the short
channel near the ferry dock.

If I were you, I would have gotten her numbers and given them or the CG a
call.

I had an encounter with a fishing boat coming back to port that was
somewhat
similar. We were sailing, they were overtaking and had plenty of room to
go
around. Their skipper decided that not being late for dinner was more
important that following the rules, and we barely were able to avoid the
boat, taking evasive action as a last resort after signalling (no time for
a
call on the VHF, but I doubt they were listening). I knew who they were
and
where they were berthed and discussed the situation with the harbor master
upon our arrival. He had had other complaints about this particular boat,
and promised to look into it. We've seen them out there after this
happened
in somewhat similar situations, and they have not failed to give way.

We have had similar situations, although we were almost always under
power but we were being overtaken.

The first one was in mid 2000 - a menhaden boat coming into the
Greater Wicomico to Reedville. We were under sail, but were in the
process of turning on the engine to go into anchor in Mill Creek off
the Great Wicomico. As we were coming in, a large (abt 100 feet) grey
boat came boiling up behind us on the port side. We were on the
starboard side of the channel, but thought since he was overtaking
that he would go around us.

NOT. We finally made a panic circle to the starboard out of the
channel so that he wouldn't ram us. At that point he made a whole
bunch of rapid blasts of his horn.

The second incident was the first time we went down the ICW when we
were on the Elizabeth River in Norfolk in November 2000. The
Elizabeth River ferry paddle wheel came out from his dock and turned
down the river along our port side. He started to pass us and got
almost all the way past, and then decided to come over to the other
side of the river, and turned almost right into us. I thought we
would be skewered. We speeded up so he went behind us.

So a little later on in the trip, when we encountered the Fort Fisher
ferry, we tried to stay out of their way, because these ferries
apparently don't deviate from their track, and the route isn't obvious
on the charts (although it is on the road map)

Interesting.. out here they definitely go around all sailboats. I have yet
to see a ferry not follow the rules - although they occasionally hit the
docks pretty hard :-) What you're describing really sounds dangerous. I mean
how do you know what to do if commercial vessels don't follow the rules of
the road? Strange.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .

The second incident was the first time we went down the ICW when we
were on the Elizabeth River in Norfolk in November 2000. The
Elizabeth River ferry paddle wheel came out from his dock and turned
down the river along our port side. He started to pass us and got
almost all the way past, and then decided to come over to the other
side of the river, and turned almost right into us. I thought we
would be skewered. We speeded up so he went behind us.

So a little later on in the trip, when we encountered the Fort Fisher
ferry, we tried to stay out of their way, because these ferries
apparently don't deviate from their track, and the route isn't obvious
on the charts (although it is on the road map)

Interesting.. out here they definitely go around all sailboats. I have yet
to see a ferry not follow the rules - although they occasionally hit the
docks pretty hard :-) What you're describing really sounds dangerous. I mean
how do you know what to do if commercial vessels don't follow the rules of
the road? Strange.

In the case of both ferries, we were not sailing, we were under power.
But in all three cases they were overtaking.

In any case, for large commercial vessels of any kind, we get out of
their way (if at all possible) before it comes up to following or not
following the rules. If necessary, Bob will circle the boat -
especially if the ship in question is a tug and tow.

We did have a close call once when crossing the Savannah River (motor
sailing). The ICW cuts across while large ships are going up and down
the river. (The same situation applies for the river in Jacksonville
FL, but the sight lines are better.)

There was a German warship coming in the river, and we could hear the
very southern pilot on the radio warning sailboats in the ICW. I saw
the superstructure of the ship (mostly the mast part) through the
trees, but did not immediately recognize it as a ship - I thought it
was just some funny kind of tree. There was another sailboat ahead of
us, and I thought the pilot was talking to them. He could only see
our mast, so he couldn't tell that the boat ahead of us was a
catamaran. [When I called Bob's attention to the funny 'tree', he did
recognize it as a ship.]

But when we came out into the river, we saw the warship a very short
distance away, and consequently we put on the power to get out of his
way and onto the other side of the channel.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
In the case of both ferries, we were not sailing, we were under power.
But in all three cases they were overtaking.

Sure thing. Doesn't make much difference, since it was an overtaking
situation.

In any case, for large commercial vessels of any kind, we get out of
their way (if at all possible) before it comes up to following or not
following the rules. If necessary, Bob will circle the boat -
especially if the ship in question is a tug and tow.

A good practice if it's practicable. And, of course, there is the issue
about restricted maneuverability, which one keep in mind. This comes up all
the time for cargo, tanker, tug, etc. situations out here.

We did have a close call once when crossing the Savannah River (motor
sailing). The ICW cuts across while large ships are going up and down
the river. (The same situation applies for the river in Jacksonville
FL, but the sight lines are better.)

There was a German warship coming in the river, and we could hear the
very southern pilot on the radio warning sailboats in the ICW. I saw
the superstructure of the ship (mostly the mast part) through the
trees, but did not immediately recognize it as a ship - I thought it
was just some funny kind of tree. There was another sailboat ahead of
us, and I thought the pilot was talking to them. He could only see
our mast, so he couldn't tell that the boat ahead of us was a
catamaran. [When I called Bob's attention to the funny 'tree', he did
recognize it as a ship.]

But when we came out into the river, we saw the warship a very short
distance away, and consequently we put on the power to get out of his
way and onto the other side of the channel.

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

There was a German warship coming in the river, and we could hear the
very southern pilot on the radio warning sailboats in the ICW. I saw
the superstructure of the ship (mostly the mast part) through the
trees, but did not immediately recognize it as a ship - I thought it
was just some funny kind of tree. There was another sailboat ahead of
us, and I thought the pilot was talking to them. He could only see
our mast, so he couldn't tell that the boat ahead of us was a
catamaran. [When I called Bob's attention to the funny 'tree', he did
recognize it as a ship.]

But when we came out into the river, we saw the warship a very short
distance away, and consequently we put on the power to get out of his
way and onto the other side of the channel.



What a fantastic example for the use of AIS if both boat and ship were so
equipped. You and he would have been plotting each other for 10 miles so
better synchronization between you would have avoided any conflict. He
would have been able to call you BY YOUR NAME AND CALL, not just "sailboat
with a mast sticking up". You would have known, not only something was
there long before you could see it but WHAT is was and WHO it was and his
speed and course for planning purposes.....

The sooner every boat is on AIS, the better for everyone.....