Questions about Propane wiring
 

Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch

My Seaward propane switch is powered from the main panel supply. But this
could be a potential safety problem. If the main panel switch/breaker trips
or is accidentally switched on and off, the propane solenoid will switch on
and off and could cause propane to flow to an unlit stove.

Should the propane switch be hot wired from the house battery?

2. Propane Detectors

My propane detectors (have two) are powered from a fused switch on the main
panel. This means we must remember to turn them on before activating the
propane solenoid.

Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)
- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)
- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions :) )

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

I am building my retirement power cat... The propane bottles will be in
a ventilated locker on deck... My schematic shows the electrical
solenoid to the propane bottle(s) to be operated by a switch on a
mechanical timer... Twist it on for a 1 or 2 hour setting and go to
cooking... If you forget to turn it off afterwards it will take care of
itself..

denny

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"GBM" wrote in message
...
Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch

My Seaward propane switch is powered from the main panel supply. But this
could be a potential safety problem. If the main panel switch/breaker
trips
or is accidentally switched on and off, the propane solenoid will switch
on
and off and could cause propane to flow to an unlit stove.

Should the propane switch be hot wired from the house battery?

2. Propane Detectors

My propane detectors (have two) are powered from a fused switch on the
main
panel. This means we must remember to turn them on before activating the
propane solenoid.

Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)
- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)
- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions :) )

GBM



My Seaward propane switch

You mean solenoid, not switch, correct?
You can't connect the solenoid directly to any battery without first putting
in a switch. Having the solenoid activate whenever you switch on the main
panel does not sound like a good idea. You are not going to have gas coming
out of the stove unless someone has left a burner turned on but this could
happen. I would put in a switch on the main panel or a switch at the stove.
If you want to be real safe put in two switches, one at the master panel and
one at the stove. You can be even safer by spending lots of money and
buying a new stove that has safety shutoffs on all burners.
The propane detector I have draws something like 0.1 amps. I don't think I
would worry too much about connecting 2 of them directly to a house bank. A
small solar panel would take care of this draw.

Questions about Propane wiring
 

Question#1-
My force 10 stove has thermocouple shut-offs at each burner which don't
allow fuel to flow if the flame goes out. My understanding is that this
is a requirement on all current marine propane devices , but you should
check.

The propane solenoid switch should be within easy reaching distance of
the appliance, but not over the flame area. (my memory of the ABYC
standard). If you use a switch with an indicator light built-in, you
shouldn't forget and leave the propane on.

My soleniod switch/circuit picks up power from the cabin accessory
circuit, and the surveyors have had no quibbles with it.

Direct wiring to the battery, rather than via the breaker panel, is
generally reserved for things like emergency bilge pumps and radios, if
then.

John

GBM wrote:
Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch

My Seaward propane switch is powered from the main panel supply. But this
could be a potential safety problem. If the main panel switch/breaker trips
or is accidentally switched on and off, the propane solenoid will switch on
and off and could cause propane to flow to an unlit stove.

Should the propane switch be hot wired from the house battery?

2. Propane Detectors

My propane detectors (have two) are powered from a fused switch on the main
panel. This means we must remember to turn them on before activating the
propane solenoid.

Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)
- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)
- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions :) )

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:49:24 -0400, "GBM"
wrote:

Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch

My Seaward propane switch is powered from the main panel supply. But this
could be a potential safety problem. If the main panel switch/breaker trips
or is accidentally switched on and off, the propane solenoid will switch on
and off and could cause propane to flow to an unlit stove.

The burners should be left in the "off" position when the stove is not
in use, so you don't depend on the solenoid being off to stop the flow
of propane. (I had a solenoid valve that didn't close completely, due
to some junk in it). Most propane stoves have built-in safety devices
that will prevent the burners from passing propane if they are not
lit.

Should the propane switch be hot wired from the house battery?

The propane solenoid should be controlled through the propane
detectors.

2. Propane Detectors

My propane detectors (have two) are powered from a fused switch on the main
panel. This means we must remember to turn them on before activating the
propane solenoid.

Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)
- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)
- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions :) )

I believe that ABYC requires the propane solenoid valve to be
controlled by the propane detector.


GBM


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Questions about Propane wiring
 

GBM wrote:
Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch
...

I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Following all of these most of the time should provide a large enough
safety margin - there's no way to guarantee everything will be
followed 100% of the time.

BTW, although my safety procedures are often a bit lax, one thing we
insist on is that the propane is shut off immediately when the stove
is off.




2. Propane Detectors


Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)

doesn't feel right

- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)

maybe, but still doesn't feel right

- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

assuming you have spare switches, put the gas in series with the
sniffer, so you can sniff without gas, but can't turn on the gas
without the sniffer.


Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions :) )

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"Gordon Wedman" wrote My Seaward propane switch

You mean solenoid, not switch, correct?

No Gord - I did mean switch.

I have a Seaward mini panel that includes the switch and a fuse - it is
mounted in the nav station which is near the galley. When switched it
activates the solenoid that is in the propane locker.

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"John" wrote in message
oups.com...
Question#1-
My force 10 stove has thermocouple shut-offs at each burner which don't
allow fuel to flow if the flame goes out. My understanding is that this
is a requirement on all current marine propane devices , but you should
check.

This is the ideal situation if the devices are reliable. But, older propane
stoves don't have this feature.

If you use a switch with an indicator light built-in, you
shouldn't forget and leave the propane on.

True, but the question related to safeguarding against switching the power
off and then back on. The solenoid cuts off flow, the flame goes out, then
the flow comes back on with no flame. It happened to someone - Not me!


My soleniod switch/circuit picks up power from the cabin accessory
circuit, and the surveyors have had no quibbles with it.

That is reason for my question - I have seen many boats wired same as mine,
and it could be unsafe.


Direct wiring to the battery, rather than via the breaker panel, is
generally reserved for things like emergency bilge pumps and radios, if
then.

Don't see why radio would be direct connected, but bilge pump is a safety
device that needs it's own power. Perhaps propane solenoid is too?

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"Peter Bennett" wrote

The burners should be left in the "off" position when the stove is not
in use, so you don't depend on the solenoid being off to stop the flow
of propane. (I had a solenoid valve that didn't close completely, due
to some junk in it). Most propane stoves have built-in safety devices
that will prevent the burners from passing propane if they are not
lit.

Peter - I was talking about a situation where propane is accidentally
switched off and then back on (by switching power to main panel on and off)
while stove is IN USE! Many older propane stoves do not have the safety
burner shut-offs. And many do not have the detectors linked to the
solenoid - they just act as alarms.


Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK -
that
two more questions :) )

I believe that ABYC requires the propane solenoid valve to be
controlled by the propane detector.


I would be interested to know just what they say.

Thanks for your input!

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"Jeff" wrote

I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!

2. Propane Detectors

assuming you have spare switches, put the gas in series with the
sniffer, so you can sniff without gas, but can't turn on the gas
without the sniffer.

I don't like this - The detectors take a minute or so to initialize and
confirm things are safe. I want the detectors to be on and the area safe,
BEFORE I turn on the propane and light the stove. To do this, I should
probably connect sniffers to the main panel feed.

Thanks for the input!

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

GBM wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!

Well, you do what you can. Obviously your problem can exist unless
you hardwire to the battery - its seems you need at least one switch.
I think of the second switch as a safety feature, increasing the
odds I'll turn off the solenoid, rather than a liability.


2. Propane Detectors
assuming you have spare switches, put the gas in series with the
sniffer, so you can sniff without gas, but can't turn on the gas
without the sniffer.

I don't like this - The detectors take a minute or so to initialize and
confirm things are safe. I want the detectors to be on and the area safe,
BEFORE I turn on the propane and light the stove. To do this, I should
probably connect sniffers to the main panel feed.

What I meant was to have the solenoid breaker off the sniffer breaker
such that you could turn on the sniffer first and wait for a minute
before turning on the gas, but you couldn't turn on the gas without
the sniffer. I don't know if the combination sniffer/solenoid switch
has a built in delay, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it
manually.

It seems to me that you don't like the thought of a switch panel that
might be misused. I must admit the on my previous boat, it was too
close to the settee, and on two occasions the fridge got turned off by
mistake, leading to some unpleasantness! Why not have a special panel
with a cover over it?

Questions about Propane wiring
 

OK, I misread the OP's problem... And as a result of reading the other
responses I now understand... I also will be redrawing the propane
solenoid electrical on my boat as a result, keeping the mechanical
timer safety switch and adding a self latching relay...

The issue is momentary loss of power that interrupts propane flow which
then comes back on and allows the propane to flow again, with no pilot
light as a result of the interruption..

What I will now do is add a relay in the solenoid's +12v line... This
will be a self latching relay using a normally open contact to keep the
relay powered once it is actuated... When the 12V is interrupted the
relay drops out (opens all contacts) and will not pull in (close the
contacts) until the operator presses the START button again...
This is standard on most power machinery, table saws, etc., where you
do not want the saw suddenly starting as you are changing the blade and
your helper sees the power cord is unplugged and "helpfully" sticks the
plug back in the wall...
Any ABYC electrician should know how to add a self latching relay to
your propane solenoid circuit...


denny

Questions about Propane wiring
 

the solenoid will default to a closed state if you lose power ...the poiwer
opens the valve .....if its on a timer it should be a very safe system
....and you do not want to hot wire it as the solenoid could short and the
fuse stopping the gas flow ...(safe) or if hotwired it cdould be shorting
and remain energized

"GBM" wrote in message
...
Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch

My Seaward propane switch is powered from the main panel supply. But this
could be a potential safety problem. If the main panel switch/breaker
trips
or is accidentally switched on and off, the propane solenoid will switch
on
and off and could cause propane to flow to an unlit stove.

Should the propane switch be hot wired from the house battery?

2. Propane Detectors

My propane detectors (have two) are powered from a fused switch on the
main
panel. This means we must remember to turn them on before activating the
propane solenoid.

Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)
- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)
- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions :) )

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"Jeff" wrote

What I meant was to have the solenoid breaker off the sniffer breaker
such that you could turn on the sniffer first and wait for a minute
before turning on the gas, but you couldn't turn on the gas without
the sniffer. I don't know if the combination sniffer/solenoid switch
has a built in delay, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it
manually.

I think this may be the easiest thing to do to ensure the sniffers are on
before the propane is switched on. I will probably leave the sniffer switch
in ON position so that sniffers come on when main panel switch is turned on.


It seems to me that you don't like the thought of a switch panel that
might be misused. I must admit the on my previous boat, it was too
close to the settee, and on two occasions the fridge got turned off by
mistake, leading to some unpleasantness! Why not have a special panel
with a cover over it?

That is my problem too - the fridge and main panel breaker/switches are on
front side of nav station seat. The refrig is a normal magnetic switch
breaker and less likely to be accidentally switched, but the 100A main panel
breaker is a Bussman type and has a push trip button that is easy to trip
with foot. I will look at putting a guard over it or maybe relocate and use
location for windlass breaker (next project!)

Thanks for suggestions!

GBM

Questions about Propane wiring
 

Denny,
Yes - that is the issue - Sorry if my original post was not clear.

I like the idea of the relay. Any suggestions as to a suitable 12v panel
mount relay with push button reset? I did a quick look through my stuff but
did not find anything suitable.

GBM


"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK, I misread the OP's problem... And as a result of reading the other
responses I now understand... I also will be redrawing the propane
solenoid electrical on my boat as a result, keeping the mechanical
timer safety switch and adding a self latching relay...

The issue is momentary loss of power that interrupts propane flow which
then comes back on and allows the propane to flow again, with no pilot
light as a result of the interruption..

What I will now do is add a relay in the solenoid's +12v line... This
will be a self latching relay using a normally open contact to keep the
relay powered once it is actuated... When the 12V is interrupted the
relay drops out (opens all contacts) and will not pull in (close the
contacts) until the operator presses the START button again...
This is standard on most power machinery, table saws, etc., where you
do not want the saw suddenly starting as you are changing the blade and
your helper sees the power cord is unplugged and "helpfully" sticks the
plug back in the wall...
Any ABYC electrician should know how to add a self latching relay to
your propane solenoid circuit...


denny

Questions about Propane wiring
 

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:34:46 -0400, "GBM"
wrote:


"Peter Bennett" wrote

I believe that ABYC requires the propane solenoid valve to be
controlled by the propane detector.


I would be interested to know just what they say.

It seems that I was mistaken - they don't mention propane detectors
where they talk about the solenoid valve.

They do require that the solenoid valve can be operated from the
vicinity of the stove or other appliance, without having to reach over
the stove.

I like the relay idea that another poster suggested - any 12 volt
relay with a single pole normally open contact that can handle the
solenoid current ( 1 amp or less, I think) would do. Connect the "On"
button in parallel with the relay contacts, and the hot side of the
coil to the load side of the contacts - pressing the "On" button will
then energize the solenoid and the relay - when the relay contact
closes, it will take over, and supply power to its own coil and to the
solenoid. You could connect a normally closed "Off" button between
the relay contact and the hot side of the coil.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Questions about Propane wiring
 

How old is that stove? My 1984 stove has the thermo couple shutoff. My
guess is that it is not a "Marine" stove. If the solenoid was not connected
to the breaker, it would require a fuse. Suggest that you paint the propane
breaker with red nail polish, so that you don't flip it off by accident.
The stove should have thermo cutoffs, cooking at sea, I find extra burners
turned on when passed by swaying crew.
Lee Haefele
Nauticat 33 Alesto, Ithaca, NY

I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!

Questions about Propane wiring
 

"Lee Haefele" wrote in message
.. .
How old is that stove? My 1984 stove has the thermo couple shutoff. My
guess is that it is not a "Marine" stove. If the solenoid was not
connected to the breaker, it would require a fuse. Suggest that you paint
the propane breaker with red nail polish, so that you don't flip it off by
accident. The stove should have thermo cutoffs, cooking at sea, I find
extra burners turned on when passed by swaying crew.
Lee Haefele
Nauticat 33 Alesto, Ithaca, NY

I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!



The 1983 Hillerange in my boat did not have thermocouple shutoffs at the
burners.
When I took the CYA cruising certification many years ago the instructor
said all marine stoves had thermocouple shutoffs. A while later a group of
us chartered a C&C 38 with me as skipper. Around dinner time I noticed
someone had turned on a stove burner and I could hear gas coming out. Well,
there were not shutoffs on this stove. I complained to the charter folks
that there were no signs warning of this but they said it was my
responsibility to inspect everything on the boat before using it. I guess
they didn't really care if someone blew up the boat.
These days I have a new Plastimo with thermocouple shutoffs.