This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.

PS: For the record, I traded the Catalina for a Hobie Cat, and sailed
just fine in the thing, so I can't be THAT rusty...

"Nikita" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.

PS: For the record, I traded the Catalina for a Hobie Cat, and sailed
just fine in the thing, so I can't be THAT rusty...

We have a fleet of the Capri 16.5s. Your answer is b. I'm betting it was in
fairly high wind. Those are our conditions.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

There are not a lot of simple answers.

Our Endeavor 32 steers itself very well too windward if you roll up
the jib in a strong wind. It will also tack, once. I discovered
though that this is only true when you have been sailing with the jib
and roll up the jib without losing much speed while the boat is moving
fast. The main is sufficient to keep the boat moving enough to stay
in balance.

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself. You will also
lose enough speed in the first tack that you can't tack again or get
the boat sailing itself. Even bearing off and heading up won't get it
up to enough speed.

This is why it's important to really know your boat. You could roll
up the jib, have the boat sailing fine although slowly, tack, and then
find your self in an awkward situation if you were in tight quarters
and counting on being able to tack again or have the boat steer
itself.

This is a peculiarity of our boat. You mileage will certainly vary.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
There are not a lot of simple answers.

Our Endeavor 32 steers itself very well too windward if you roll up the
jib in a strong wind. It will also tack, once. I discovered though that
this is only true when you have been sailing with the jib and roll up the
jib without losing much speed while the boat is moving fast. The main is
sufficient to keep the boat moving enough to stay in balance.

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone to
reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself. You will also lose
enough speed in the first tack that you can't tack again or get the boat
sailing itself. Even bearing off and heading up won't get it up to enough
speed.

This is why it's important to really know your boat. You could roll up
the jib, have the boat sailing fine although slowly, tack, and then find
your self in an awkward situation if you were in tight quarters and
counting on being able to tack again or have the boat steer itself.

This is a peculiarity of our boat. You mileage will certainly vary.

--

Roger Long

There is a simple answer for this boat actually. We have lots of experience
with the 16.5s. If the wind pipes up, you need the jib. Your mileage will
certainly vary on other boats, however.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote

There is a simple answer for this boat actually. We have lots of
experience with the 16.5s. If the wind pipes up, you need the jib.
Your mileage will certainly vary on other boats, however.

I'm not sure which boat you are referring to here but you certainly do
need the jib in the E 32 if you want to get anywhere before you grow
old. Being able to just roll up the jib and have the boat keep
jogging along slowly while you duck below for something is a great
feature however when you are single handed. It really helps to know
though that you mustn't let the speed fall off too much while you roll
the jib or the boat isn't going to maintain a course.

This is a perfect example of the common situation where a boat has two
potential speeds in the same wind velocity, one that it can speed up
to and a slightly faster one that it will slow down to.

--

Roger Long

On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:39:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.

Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind. When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.

Excellent generalities and useful to a newbie sailor but they don't
have anything to do with what was talking about.

I was actually focusing on the idea of knowing your boat and how it
will behave in different conditions. I used to amuse people by close
reaching Solings backwards in Boston Harbor so I know there are a lot
of ways to skin a cat when it comes to making a boat do what you want.
It was a surprise to me though how differently my boat behaves under
main alone when slowing down from the speed of the full sail plan or
motor sailing with the main only and when working up to speed from a
near stop. It's not something I would have wanted to discover in a
narrow channel with the engine out. In open water, I just would have
worn around and jibed to the new course. It's good to go out and
experiment a lot with your boat before you get it into tight spots.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:39:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main
alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.

Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or
close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind. When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the
wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed
on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough
momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.

On Mon, 08 May 2006 10:33:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

It's good to go out and
experiment a lot with your boat before you get it into tight spots.
==========================

Good advice, better yet to recognize and avoid "tight spots" whenever
possible.

"Roger Long"
wrote:
If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.


I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go
fast enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed,
it's how you try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.


Wayne.B wrote:
Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind.

Bingo!
And also to not fight the main with the rudder. When the
mainsail fills, of course it tries to 'weathervane' the boat
head-to-wind, which most people then slam the helm over to
prevent. Result: boat doesn't steer & doesn't accelerate to
sailing speed.


.... When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.


Excellent and very much to the point IMHO. It's an unusual
sailing skill, and somewhat contrary to regular practice;
but the way to do it is to ease out large amounts of
mainsheet and let the sail luff freely until the boat is
pointed to a beam reach. I often ease the main out and pump
the helm to windward to kick the stern up, very counter
intuitive to most sailors but it works well.

Our pudgy little trailerable Hunter 19 would not only sail
pretty well under main alone, but could be coaxed into
making pretty good ground to windward *if* you started out
by building up speed on a beam reach (which means not
fighting the helm) and then slowly pointed up. If you tried
to accelerate on a close reach you just end up in irons.

Some catamarans, and Sunfish, have this problem too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in

I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go fast
enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed, it's how you
try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.

That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.
I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something. My
specific, individual, boat does that when sailing at the speed that it
can maintain under main when slowing down from a full sail plan or
motor sailing. It won't do it at the speed it can reach with its
relatively small main alone, even working up from a broad reach.

Even under a full sail plan, most boats will slow down to a higher
speed in many conditions than they can be accelerated to. On my boat,
in strong winds, that speed difference just brackets the conditions of
equilibrium for self steering to windward which is always a bit
elusive in fin keel boats.

--

Roger Long