This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.

PS: For the record, I traded the Catalina for a Hobie Cat, and sailed
just fine in the thing, so I can't be THAT rusty...

"Nikita" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.

PS: For the record, I traded the Catalina for a Hobie Cat, and sailed
just fine in the thing, so I can't be THAT rusty...

We have a fleet of the Capri 16.5s. Your answer is b. I'm betting it was in
fairly high wind. Those are our conditions.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The average sloop sailboat does sails well with either the main or jib
alone.
The better one do go upwind with the main alone or jib.
The trick is practice and more practice. When I had knee surgery I sailed
with the main alone for a while. Then with the jib alone. After a while I
used both sails.
The best way is to start practicing on a calm day. You have to master the
art of filling your sails and emptying them. There are no book or video
that will trained you properly. Like a toddler you have to do it again and
again until you become confident and assert yourself. Sometime taking a in
the water sailing course coupled with classroom teaching is better than
renting a boat that you are not familiar with.

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On 6 May 2006 20:16:28 -0700, "Nikita" wrote:

This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.


The Club 420 mast is much further forward than the Catalina 16.5, and the
main
is relatively much larger. Without a jib, those differences could be very
significant.

It's also possible that the mast on the particular Catalina you rented was
rigged with too much rake. That would tend to increase weather helm.

When you realized you couldn't sail well on the main alone, why didn't you
just
raise the jib? If you "learned" on a 420, this should have been no big
deal.


Terry & Skipper, Clearlake Texas

There are not a lot of simple answers.

Our Endeavor 32 steers itself very well too windward if you roll up
the jib in a strong wind. It will also tack, once. I discovered
though that this is only true when you have been sailing with the jib
and roll up the jib without losing much speed while the boat is moving
fast. The main is sufficient to keep the boat moving enough to stay
in balance.

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself. You will also
lose enough speed in the first tack that you can't tack again or get
the boat sailing itself. Even bearing off and heading up won't get it
up to enough speed.

This is why it's important to really know your boat. You could roll
up the jib, have the boat sailing fine although slowly, tack, and then
find your self in an awkward situation if you were in tight quarters
and counting on being able to tack again or have the boat steer
itself.

This is a peculiarity of our boat. You mileage will certainly vary.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
There are not a lot of simple answers.

Our Endeavor 32 steers itself very well too windward if you roll up the
jib in a strong wind. It will also tack, once. I discovered though that
this is only true when you have been sailing with the jib and roll up the
jib without losing much speed while the boat is moving fast. The main is
sufficient to keep the boat moving enough to stay in balance.

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone to
reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself. You will also lose
enough speed in the first tack that you can't tack again or get the boat
sailing itself. Even bearing off and heading up won't get it up to enough
speed.

This is why it's important to really know your boat. You could roll up
the jib, have the boat sailing fine although slowly, tack, and then find
your self in an awkward situation if you were in tight quarters and
counting on being able to tack again or have the boat steer itself.

This is a peculiarity of our boat. You mileage will certainly vary.

--

Roger Long

There is a simple answer for this boat actually. We have lots of experience
with the 16.5s. If the wind pipes up, you need the jib. Your mileage will
certainly vary on other boats, however.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote

There is a simple answer for this boat actually. We have lots of
experience with the 16.5s. If the wind pipes up, you need the jib.
Your mileage will certainly vary on other boats, however.

I'm not sure which boat you are referring to here but you certainly do
need the jib in the E 32 if you want to get anywhere before you grow
old. Being able to just roll up the jib and have the boat keep
jogging along slowly while you duck below for something is a great
feature however when you are single handed. It really helps to know
though that you mustn't let the speed fall off too much while you roll
the jib or the boat isn't going to maintain a course.

This is a perfect example of the common situation where a boat has two
potential speeds in the same wind velocity, one that it can speed up
to and a slightly faster one that it will slow down to.

--

Roger Long

I wished I could! The jib was not on the boat. That was certainly a
mistake on my part; I should have rigged it and just left it down. The
guys at the rental office didn't come out with any warnings when I told
them I wanted to sail the Catalina with the main alone, so I assumed I
would be fine.

Live and learn, I guess...

Nikita.

On Sun, 07 May 2006 12:48:35 +0000, Mys Terry wrote:

On 6 May 2006 20:16:28 -0700, "Nikita" wrote:

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time.

The Club 420 mast is much further forward than the Catalina 16.5, and the main
is relatively much larger. Without a jib, those differences could be very
significant.

This is the key. Boats with a larger main and smaller jib may
sail upwind fine with just the main, and vice versa -- masthead sloops
usually sail better with just the jib than just the main.

Matt O.

On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:39:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.

Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind. When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.

Excellent generalities and useful to a newbie sailor but they don't
have anything to do with what was talking about.

I was actually focusing on the idea of knowing your boat and how it
will behave in different conditions. I used to amuse people by close
reaching Solings backwards in Boston Harbor so I know there are a lot
of ways to skin a cat when it comes to making a boat do what you want.
It was a surprise to me though how differently my boat behaves under
main alone when slowing down from the speed of the full sail plan or
motor sailing with the main only and when working up to speed from a
near stop. It's not something I would have wanted to discover in a
narrow channel with the engine out. In open water, I just would have
worn around and jibed to the new course. It's good to go out and
experiment a lot with your boat before you get it into tight spots.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:39:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main
alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.

Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or
close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind. When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the
wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed
on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough
momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.