Cleaning the hull
 

Hi

I have a 26 year old Mirage 27 sailing boat, beautiful condition inside,
however the hull has become dull, looking tired and her age. I would like
to clean and bring back the shine. I have heard both pro's and con's of
silicon polish.

Can anyone advise a good fiberglass cleaner, and resolution to the "dull
hull" syndrome.

I need to apply anti-fouling this year, should I use the cleaner below the
water-line before applying the anti-fouling.

Thanks.

Cleaning the hull
 

I posted the following respone to a similar question on sailnet.net the
other day to the same question:

First look at the gelcoat with a strong magnifying glass or pocket
microscope (Radio Shack). If you see NO 'alligatoring', then the
gelcoat can be wet sanded and powerbuffed back to the 'original' shine
and brilliance.
1. wash the surface with a STRONG caustic detergent ... from a
janatorial supply, then use oxalic acid (wood bleach -- from a paint
store) to remove old dead wax, iron and tannin stains. Dont MIX
detergent and oxalic !!!! rinse in between the two. Wear gloves when
using oxalic as it quickly absorbs through you skin and can damage your
kidneys.

2. Flat sand the gelcoat with 1000-- 1500 --2000 grit wet and dry
sandpaper using a few drops of dishwashing detergent in a few gallons
of water. Use a rubber sanding block. Sand away until the surface is
flat. Most gelcoat is quite thick .... but stop sanding immediately
when you see the matting layer of fiberglass under layer showing
through .... if you do its time to paint. If not, proceed to 2. The
object is to remove the oxidized outter layer of gelcoat and produce a
FLAT surface ... use the pocket microscope if you have one.

3. Get a high speed autobody power polisher (varibale speed 1000-3000
rpm), 3M foam polishing pads, Coarse Fiberglass rubbing compound, 1000
grit auto body shop compound, 3M finesse it, 3M Perfect polishing
compount, Collinite Fleetwax.

4. Begin with a fresh foam pad (Never mix pads and grits). In a 2ft. by
2 ft. surface apply coarse rubbing compound then do the 2ft. x 2 ft.
square with a foam pad, move to the next 2X2 square until the whole
boat is completed, Then do the same with 1300 grit - whole boat, then
Finesse-it, then Perfect-it. Keep the buffer moving at all times, be
very careful and dont 'burn through' sharp corners. Power buffing can
remove a LOT of gelcoat, so use a 'light touch' .. and keep the buffer
moving so you dont 'overheat' the surface. The speed of the polisher is
what does the work not the pressure. By the time you get to the
Finesse-it the hull should be back to NEW condition shine wise.
Perfect-it with give the deep shine.
You must wax immediately to fill the 'pores' of the gelcoat. Use a
clean bare hand, some water and the paste collinite and rub by hand
until the wax begins to shine, then add about a 10¢ size spread over
the 2X2 and powerbuff. Push the wax INTO the pores of gel ... dont just
smear it across it - this will seal the pores and will retard
oxidation.

99% of the time the above process will restore an old faded hull back
to NEW condition. Its also the same process that is used to powerbuff a
NEW hull when its pulled from its mold. Rewax at about 6 months and
every 12 thereafter as a minimum. Every 2-3 years STRIP the old dead
wax with a caustic detergent, light powerbuff with Perfect-it and
rewax. .... This should keep the boat looking like new for the next 30
years.
You may want to fill in gouges, etc. with new gelcoat before you
powerbuff.

Beware snake oil: acrylic coating 'wipe on' coatings. They look good
for a season or two but ultimately fail and have to be removed (when
they will look like a severe skin disease). The acrylic removal is a
PITA and is ultimately more harmful than the above powerbuffing
method.In article FgD1g.40957$7a.16136@pd7tw1no, Sebastian
wrote:

Hi

I have a 26 year old Mirage 27 sailing boat, beautiful condition inside,
however the hull has become dull, looking tired and her age. I would like
to clean and bring back the shine. I have heard both pro's and con's of
silicon polish.

Can anyone advise a good fiberglass cleaner, and resolution to the "dull
hull" syndrome.

I need to apply anti-fouling this year, should I use the cleaner below the
water-line before applying the anti-fouling.

Thanks.

Cleaning the hull
 

You are giving excellent advice. I think that the 3M stuff requires
3200rpm. Read the label and follow the instructions and Rich's
prediction will come true for you.

Cleaning the hull
 

Keith wrote:
The above sounds good, but I'd try just buffing with 3m's brown
compound first, then Finesse-it to see if it brings back the shine you
want. I've brought back some pretty bad hulls that way. I only use
Collinite Fleetwax paste wax as well. Works very well and lasts a long
time. Don't get these compounds at the marine store though... you can
get them for half that price on the web. The place I get mine is:
http://www.autobodydepot.net

Most auto-restorers use Farecla or something similar, applied with a
man-sized electric polisher.
This will bring up the bare gelcoat prior to polishing with whatever takes
your fancy, it's hard work, but worth it. I wouldn't put wet 'n dry of any
grade anywhere near my gelcoat unless a repair had made this necessary. The
auto-shops are bristling with all manner of polishes at half the price of
so-called boat polish, and there are rather more cars than boats, so take
advantage of the research and development they carry out all the time. Ask a
body shop what they use! I use Mir!

DP

Cleaning the hull
 

Great advice Rich! Well done.


"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
I posted the following respone to a similar question on sailnet.net the
other day to the same question:

First look at the gelcoat with a strong magnifying glass or pocket
microscope (Radio Shack). If you see NO 'alligatoring', then the
gelcoat can be wet sanded and powerbuffed back to the 'original' shine
and brilliance.
1. wash the surface with a STRONG caustic detergent ... from a
janatorial supply, then use oxalic acid (wood bleach -- from a paint
store) to remove old dead wax, iron and tannin stains. Dont MIX
detergent and oxalic !!!! rinse in between the two. Wear gloves when
using oxalic as it quickly absorbs through you skin and can damage your
kidneys.

2. Flat sand the gelcoat with 1000-- 1500 --2000 grit wet and dry
sandpaper using a few drops of dishwashing detergent in a few gallons
of water. Use a rubber sanding block. Sand away until the surface is
flat. Most gelcoat is quite thick .... but stop sanding immediately
when you see the matting layer of fiberglass under layer showing
through .... if you do its time to paint. If not, proceed to 2. The
object is to remove the oxidized outter layer of gelcoat and produce a
FLAT surface ... use the pocket microscope if you have one.

3. Get a high speed autobody power polisher (varibale speed 1000-3000
rpm), 3M foam polishing pads, Coarse Fiberglass rubbing compound, 1000
grit auto body shop compound, 3M finesse it, 3M Perfect polishing
compount, Collinite Fleetwax.

4. Begin with a fresh foam pad (Never mix pads and grits). In a 2ft. by
2 ft. surface apply coarse rubbing compound then do the 2ft. x 2 ft.
square with a foam pad, move to the next 2X2 square until the whole
boat is completed, Then do the same with 1300 grit - whole boat, then
Finesse-it, then Perfect-it. Keep the buffer moving at all times, be
very careful and dont 'burn through' sharp corners. Power buffing can
remove a LOT of gelcoat, so use a 'light touch' .. and keep the buffer
moving so you dont 'overheat' the surface. The speed of the polisher is
what does the work not the pressure. By the time you get to the
Finesse-it the hull should be back to NEW condition shine wise.
Perfect-it with give the deep shine.
You must wax immediately to fill the 'pores' of the gelcoat. Use a
clean bare hand, some water and the paste collinite and rub by hand
until the wax begins to shine, then add about a 10¢ size spread over
the 2X2 and powerbuff. Push the wax INTO the pores of gel ... dont just
smear it across it - this will seal the pores and will retard
oxidation.

99% of the time the above process will restore an old faded hull back
to NEW condition. Its also the same process that is used to powerbuff a
NEW hull when its pulled from its mold. Rewax at about 6 months and
every 12 thereafter as a minimum. Every 2-3 years STRIP the old dead
wax with a caustic detergent, light powerbuff with Perfect-it and
rewax. .... This should keep the boat looking like new for the next 30
years.
You may want to fill in gouges, etc. with new gelcoat before you
powerbuff.

Beware snake oil: acrylic coating 'wipe on' coatings. They look good
for a season or two but ultimately fail and have to be removed (when
they will look like a severe skin disease). The acrylic removal is a
PITA and is ultimately more harmful than the above powerbuffing
method.In article FgD1g.40957$7a.16136@pd7tw1no, Sebastian
wrote:

Hi

I have a 26 year old Mirage 27 sailing boat, beautiful condition inside,
however the hull has become dull, looking tired and her age. I would
like
to clean and bring back the shine. I have heard both pro's and con's of
silicon polish.

Can anyone advise a good fiberglass cleaner, and resolution to the "dull
hull" syndrome.

I need to apply anti-fouling this year, should I use the cleaner below
the
water-line before applying the anti-fouling.

Thanks.

Cleaning the hull
 

Yeah sure... and the same folks probably slather their brightwork with
'cetol'.

BTW if you want the acrylic overcoats to look as good as finely buffed
gelcoat, flat sand and buff the acrylic as I described above.

The 'problem' with these coatings is that eventually have to be removed
when they oxidize and begin to lose adhesion. Acutally I prefer
urethanacrylic copolymers, especially on teak but with a bit of ferrous
oxide thrown in to retard UV damage. But still, ****nothing**** looks
as good as freshly buffed gelcoat ... thats the way it comes from the
factory and its really easy to keep that way.
When I look at a boat for sale, having an acrylic overcoat for me is a
deal breaker because usually its hiding 'something' and its impossible
to visualize the true condition of the gelcoat.


In article , Dave
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 04:41:05 GMT, Rich Hampel said:

Beware snake oil: acrylic coating 'wipe on' coatings. They look good
for a season or two but ultimately fail and have to be removed (when
they will look like a severe skin disease). The acrylic removal is a
PITA and is ultimately more harmful than the above powerbuffing
method.

Not my experience or the experience of may who've used them.

Cleaning the hull
 

I disagree somewhat.
Gelcoat needs a flat surface to shine well, If you start with coarse
compound you wond get the truely flat surface hence the shine wont be
fully developed. You usually dont need to use much coarse compound
once you get the surface really flat with 2000 grit as coarse compound
is 'probably' in the range of 800-1000 grit. Wet sanding is a very
FAST way to get a surface Flat .... just like they used to do to get a
lacquer job on a super-expensive automobile FLAT before the final
polish.

In article .com,
Keith wrote:

The above sounds good, but I'd try just buffing with 3m's brown
compound first, then Finesse-it to see if it brings back the shine you
want. I've brought back some pretty bad hulls that way. I only use
Collinite Fleetwax paste wax as well. Works very well and lasts a long
time. Don't get these compounds at the marine store though... you can
get them for half that price on the web. The place I get mine is:
http://www.autobodydepot.net

Cleaning the hull
 

"Mys Terry" wrote

Total baloney. Mine has not needed "removal" in 8 years. Every
spring I wash the
boat to get the dust off and wipe on two maintenance coats. My boat
always looks
like it is wet. Always.

Which product are you using? Is it something similar to the Poli Glow
that was being discussed here a while back?

BTW I suspect this is one of those situations where there is some
truth to both points of view depending on standards, situation, and
maintenance. I'm probably going to go to a wipe on coating because my
boat will probably need paint in five years anyway due to PO caused
damage. Looking at it closely, I think it may be a boat that came out
of the mold with surface problems and had a new gel coat applied
immediately. Buffing is also something I have to hire out.

--

Roger Long

Cleaning the hull
 

Roger Long wrote:

I'm probably going to go to a wipe on coating because my
boat will probably need paint in five years anyway due to PO caused
damage. Looking at it closely, I think it may be a boat that came out
of the mold with surface problems and had a new gel coat applied
immediately. Buffing is also something I have to hire out.

When the old gel coat starts getting thin, why not just have
new gel coat sprayed on and buffed out? We hit a rock
with our power boat last year and had a 6' x 1" gash
repaired. As part of the repairs, they resprayed the entire
bottom of the boat with gel coat, sanded it smooth, and then
buffed it out. The cost on a 21' boat was not prohibitive
($3700 including the fiberglass repairs).

There may be a very good reason to not re-gelcoat, but it
eludes me at the moment.

Don W.

Cleaning the hull
 

"Don W" wrote
There may be a very good reason to not re-gelcoat, but it eludes me
at the moment.

Gee, extrapolating up for size, that works out to over 1/3 of the
purchase price of our used 32 foot sailboat or, about the price of a
whole new set of sails, complete with the spinnaker we don't have.
Or, I could redo all the rigging, replace the plastic portlights with
metal, add a diesel heater and modify the engine cooling system for
late (freezing nights) season operation and have something left over
for more electronics.

In my world at least, that counts as a reason.

--

Roger Long

Cleaning the hull
 

Hi Roger,

I think that you are extrapolating based on the cost of
fixing a 9.14' x 1.5" gash in the bottom of your 32' boat
and _then_ re-gelcoating :) Note that the gash was entirely
through the fiberglass, not superficial. The only thing
that kept the boat from sinking was the inner hull.

I have no idea what the cost of spraying, leveling and
buffing the gelcoat would have been by itself, but I doubt
it would have been nearly as much.

How much do you expect to spend to have the hull sanded,
faired, epoxy primed, and then two coats of 2-part epoxy
paint professionally applied? I'll bet it doesn't come to
much difference by the time you're done, since much of the
labor is in the prep.

But I've been wrong before ;-)

Don W.

Roger Long wrote:

Gee, extrapolating up for size, that works out to over 1/3 of the
purchase price of our used 32 foot sailboat or, about the price of a
whole new set of sails, complete with the spinnaker we don't have.
Or, I could redo all the rigging, replace the plastic portlights with
metal, add a diesel heater and modify the engine cooling system for
late (freezing nights) season operation and have something left over
for more electronics.

In my world at least, that counts as a reason.

Cleaning the hull
 

Any reason you couldn't apply Poli Glo in the water at dockside on a
reasonably calm day?

Any hints on stripping the wax put on last year? The boat sat outside
for six years so there probably isn't much build up aside from the
compound and wax job I had done last spring.

--

Roger Long

Cleaning the hull
 

If Polyglow, etc. was such a wonderful product, why dont the boat
manufacturers/builders apply it to new boats? Please name one.

Certainly your rants a have a very strong commerical/profit tinge to
them.





In article , Mys Terry
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:59:31 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote:

"Mys Terry" wrote

Total baloney. Mine has not needed "removal" in 8 years. Every
spring I wash the
boat to get the dust off and wipe on two maintenance coats. My boat
always looks
like it is wet. Always.

Which product are you using? Is it something similar to the Poli Glow
that was being discussed here a while back?

BTW I suspect this is one of those situations where there is some
truth to both points of view depending on standards, situation, and
maintenance. I'm probably going to go to a wipe on coating because my
boat will probably need paint in five years anyway due to PO caused
damage. Looking at it closely, I think it may be a boat that came out
of the mold with surface problems and had a new gel coat applied
immediately. Buffing is also something I have to hire out.

I use poliglow. What Hampel wrote is the standard FUD rant used by boatyard
luddites who are losing income as people switch to PoliGlow and similar
products, and no longer need their services to compund and wax, which is very
labor intensive. I'd be willing to bet that he has no personal experience with
the product at all. If he does, then he is one of the folks who didn't follow
the clear and easy instructions.

The truth in this case is squarely to one side. The simple truth is that
poliglow works exactly as advertised if you follow the simple directions.
Question anyone who claims to have had a poor experience and carefully, and
without exception, they have "improvised" rather than follow the directions.
Forget everything you know about compounding and waxing when you use Poliglow.
If you apply "wax" knowlege to Poliglow, I agree that you will have problems.
I've heard of boatyards charging for untold hours of labor trying to remove
poliglow by compounding it. Pretty stupid, since the manufacturer specifically
tells you that that WILL NOT WORK. The manufacturer has a companion product
that
removes poliglow easier than you've ever removed a coat of wax. One other nice
advantage of Poliglow is that unlike wax, which pretty much sits on the
surface,
Poliglow fills in the pores of the gelcoat and really seals it to slow down or
stop oxidation. The air trapped under a coat of wax means your gelcoat
continues to oxidize and will need compounding again and again.

I have recommened Poliglow to a large number of people over the years and
have
never had a single complaint. I've never had anybody go back to wax, either. Not
a single one.

Cleaning the hull
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 13:00:29 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

If Polyglow, etc. was such a wonderful product, why dont the boat
manufacturers/builders apply it to new boats? Please name one.

Certainly your rants a have a very strong commerical/profit tinge to
them.



I have absolutely no affiliation with Poly Glow other than the one
where I send them money and they send me a product I like very much.

What's your angle in trying to spread blatant untruths about the
product? Hmmm?

I'm active on a Catalina 30 list and quite a few of the participants use
Poliglow and have been quite satisfied with the results. I tried it on that
basis and have been very happy with it so far. I did the initial work (with
the prep solution) with the boat on the hard and have done the maintenance
coats with the boat in the water. Much less work than waxing and it looks
great.

--Alan Gomes

Cleaning the hull
 

Dave wrote:
Most of the experts say it isn't cost-effective, particularly with the
durability of the 2-part epoxy paints.

I don't doubt that what you say is true, however...

It seems to me that if the manufacturers could save a bit by
switching from gel coat to Imron or Awlgrip they would.
Yet the boat manufacturing industry uniformly uses gel coat
instead of paint.

Professional fiberglass repair places also routinely respray
the gel coat and then buff it out.

There is little cost difference between the materials, and
the preparation is similar.

Could it be that the popularity of two-part paints is
because they can be applied more easily by the DIY crowd?

Regards,

Don W.

Cleaning the hull
 

Dave wrote:

I think you need to learn a bit about how boats are built. Start your
research with the words "mold" and "mold release."

Hi Dave,

Your second mistake is in thinking that I don't know how
boats are built. I'm not going to tell you what your first
one was--only that you presume a lot without knowing.

Instead of sniping, why don't you share your accumulated
wisdom and point out from your point of view why the
two-part paints are better and cheaper than gel coat.

You could also share your experiences about how you came to
hold those views.

Or not... (waiting)

BTW, have you ever personally painted anything using a
two-part paint such as Awlgrip or Imron? Epoxy primer?

Regards,

Don W.

Cleaning the hull
 

Hi Dave,

Earlier I wrote the following:

Instead of sniping, why don't you share your accumulated
wisdom and point out from your point of view why the
two-part paints are better and cheaper than gel coat.

You could also share your experiences about how you came to
hold those views.

Or not... (waiting)

BTW, have you ever personally painted anything using a
two-part paint such as Awlgrip or Imron? Epoxy primer?

You Replied:
No need to wait. Go back and read earlier messages in the thread and your
question will be answered.

I read back through your posts in this thread. The most
helpful comment you wrote that I found was:

"Most of the experts say it isn't cost effective,
particularly with the durability of the 2-part epoxy paints."

Very helpful. It suggests that you've read the views of
experts and have a religious belief that coincides with
theirs--whoever they are.

Meanwhile, I suggest that anyone who says the process of applying a boat's
initial gelcoat is remotely similar to applying paint to the outside of a
hull doesn't know what he's talking about.

Dave, you are acting like a usenet troll. You continue to
snipe, and not contribute or answer the questions asked. I
suggest that you add my name to your killfile so that you
won't see my posts in the future. I'm adding your name to
right now. plonk

Regards,

Don W.

Cleaning the hull
 

Mys Terry wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:43:52 GMT, Don W
wrote:

It seems to me that if the manufacturers could save a bit by
switching from gel coat to Imron or Awlgrip they would.
Yet the boat manufacturing industry uniformly uses gel coat
instead of paint.

That's not exactly true, Don. If you order a new red or blue C&C 99, they take a
standard gelcoated white hull and PAINT it with awlgrip. I would not be at all
surprised if that is the way the majority of manufacturers do it. (Metalflake
Bass boats aside!)

Interesting. I went to their website, and see that Awlgrip
is an option for dark hull colors. I'd like to hear their
rationale. It is also interesting that they don't offer
Awlgrip in the light hull colors.

http://www.c-cyachts.com/model/model...b-a61eae41d7de

I wonder if they plan to do this for their other models as
well. The darker gel coat colors do tend to show oxidation
rather badly.

Also, are you sure that they are actually painting over a
white gelcoat? That seems odd, since scratches would stand
out pretty dramatically and they could just as easily apply
Awlgrip over a color matched gelcoat.

BTW, I'm not putting down the two-part paint systems. I've
painted with them and they work well. If sprayed on a well
prepped surface, the finish can be spectacular. A lot of
people even report good results using DIY methods such as
"rolling and tipping".

My point was that if you are going to go to all the trouble
to prep the hull for painting, and you are set up to spray,
why not spray gel coat. The material cost is about the
same, and you can spray a much thicker coating that can be
wet sanded and buffed for many years to come. The downside
is that you may need to wet sand and buff it out after
spraying, and the positive side is that you _can_ wet sand
and buff it out. For decks, an additional downside to
gelcoating may be that you have to redo all of the patterned
non-skid. However, I notice that the new Catalinas are
using a texture gun to apply the non-skid instead of using a
mold pattern.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately, because
the deck on our Catalina 27 needs to be redone. I will
spray it, but the issue is whether to spray gelcoat or
paint. I have some concerns about the long-term durability
of Awlgrip or any other paint when used as a surface to walk on.

Cleaning the hull
 

Coming late to this party, I wonder what is recommended for relatively
new awl-grip.

By relatively new, I mean older than 2 years, which is how long Flying
Pig has been ashore, at a minimum. That may be significant, as I see
that less than 2-year old gelcoat isn't a good candidate for this
product. FWIW, the stern and rubrail are both only 1 year old, but the
rest of it is probably 3-5 or maybe more old.

And, I'm wondering how much product would be needed to cover about
400SF or so...

Thanks for any intelligence on the matter. As we approach the time to
splash, with Lydia's mom available to help dress her out, this is now
on the radar...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

" I went to the Sea because I wished to live deliberately .. to
confront only the essential facts of life .. and see if I could
not learn what it had to teach, and not .. when I came to die
discover that I had not lived" - Hendry David Thoreau "

Cleaning the hull
 

Skip,

How is the older Awlgrip looking at this point?

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Coming late to this party, I wonder what is recommended for relatively
new awl-grip.

By relatively new, I mean older than 2 years, which is how long Flying
Pig has been ashore, at a minimum. That may be significant, as I see
that less than 2-year old gelcoat isn't a good candidate for this
product. FWIW, the stern and rubrail are both only 1 year old, but the
rest of it is probably 3-5 or maybe more old.

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

" I went to the Sea because I wished to live deliberately .. to
confront only the essential facts of life .. and see if I could
not learn what it had to teach, and not .. when I came to die
discover that I had not lived" - Hendry David Thoreau "

Actually, the correct quote from "Walden" begins "I went to
the woods because..." Although its is fine to go to sea for
the same reasons.

Don W.