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Boat Safety - and thread arguments

Dave,

I do not think that figure is known?

RT

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

In article .com,
" wrote:

Of course not. Only intersted in Recreational craft.

I have 2 workboats, approx 30' LOA, with twin 225HP o/bs. They're
commercially registered (in survey). I have a 12' sailing dinghy with a
sometimes used 2HP o/b that's not registered at all, and doesn't have
to be.

Now, which is capable of inflicting more damage? Which would your
proposed rule apply to?

You're really not thinking this through. I strongly suspect you chant
the 'if it saves one life, it's worth it' mantra at every opportunity.

Any analogy with cars doesn't really hold as far as I can see. Perhaps
you'd care to be more specific. Then we'll see if the logic actually
applies to boats.

PDW

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On 18 Apr 2006 08:21:00 -0700, "

said:

The stats until recently did not separate out
"overboards" that were struck by Propellers or the drownings
that were
caused after being struck by a propeller but the primary cause
of death
is the drowning.

You may limit your answer to my question to the period for which
the more
detailed numbers you presumably have are available.

Dave,

I think your answer, if not directly available, can be implied by
the stat I quoted on an earlier date:

-------------------------------------------
Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%)

Deaths pa 800 (5 times as many injuries)
0.25 per 100,000 of population
7 per 100,000 boats
2.8 per 10,000,000 hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa)
However: sailboats are only 1% of deaths!
-------------------------------------------

It would be reasonable to assume that if sail and auxiliary sail
boats represented 40% of the fleet, but only 1% of the deaths,
then deaths (and severe injury for that matter) due to props on
these vessels are not significant.

And surely that's the point. There may be a target group in which
prop guards make economic sense - small motor vessels?

But perhaps there's much better value for money educating peple to
use lifejackets and buoyancy aids - whose lack is one of the
biggest contributions to death on the water.

The other major contribution - alcohol - has been tackled in cars
through draconian punishment. Very difficult to apply in the pure
leisure field of boating!
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

I have trouble following your logic, and where did you get those
numbers???

here's a good source:
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...dent_stats.htm

News f2s wrote:

I think your answer, if not directly available, can be implied by
the stat I quoted on an earlier date:

-------------------------------------------
Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%)

12 million boats are registered, but only about 140,000, or 1.2% are
auxiliary sail, with slightly over have being outboards. I don't know
how you could think 40% of all boats are sail!

Deaths pa 800 (5 times as many injuries)
The death rate has dropped about to 700 or less for 4 of the last 5
years, there has been a significant trend towards safety in recent years.

0.25 per 100,000 of population
???

7 per 100,000 boats
deaths per boat?

2.8 per 10,000,000 hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa)
This has to be hugely overstated, but what's the point?

However: sailboats are only 1% of deaths!
Sailboat related deaths occur in almost exactly the same proportion as
their numbers in the registered fleet. They probably are
statistically safer if you could include all of the unregistered human
powered vehicles (which also includes some sailboats) since canoes and
kayaks are a major source of fatalities.

-------------------------------------------

It would be reasonable to assume that if sail and auxiliary sail
boats represented 40% of the fleet, but only 1% of the deaths,
then deaths (and severe injury for that matter) due to props on
these vessels are not significant.

Your 40% assumption is bogus, but the accident stats do actually say
how many of the prop strikes occur for sailboats. My tally showed 2
of the 1000 strikes in the last 8 years were related to sailboats,
where 12 would be the expected number.

Unfortunately, these numbers only list the "first event" in an
accident, so it does not include cases where the engine/prop strike is
the second event. Unlike every other category, 2/3 of engine/prop
strike accidents are second or third events, meaning that most strikes
start with another event, likely falling overboard (or capsizing,
ejection, etc.). However, there is no reason to think sailboats would
be any worse in "second events" than in "first event."

And surely that's the point. There may be a target group in which
prop guards make economic sense - small motor vessels?

Actually in 2004 10% of the strikes were vessels 26 feet and over, and
they represent only about 5% of the fleet. (Small numbers are at work
here, though.)

The one stat that does jump out is that stern drives are only about
15% of the fleet, but were involved in about 45% of the accidents!
This seems to vary year to year, but there is a definite trend.

But perhaps there's much better value for money educating peple to
use lifejackets and buoyancy aids - whose lack is one of the
biggest contributions to death on the water.

Yup. And education.

The other major contribution - alcohol - has been tackled in cars
through draconian punishment. Very difficult to apply in the pure
leisure field of boating!

Of course, we could just accept the fact that there is a certain risk
in living.

Personally, I would favor required training, and stricter enforcement
of drinking, speeding, and reckless boating laws. But sometimes we go
"overboard" on some of the safety regs - for example, my 11 year old
kid is required (in some states) to wear a PFD while sleeping down below.

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
I have trouble following your logic, and where did you get those
numbers???

here's a good source:
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...dent_stats.htm

same source, excepting a correction in sailboat numbers for those
states which don't require sailboats and auxiliary sailboats to be
registers. *However* serious finger trouble on my part and lack of
double checking changed 4% into 40%!

-------------------------------------------
Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%)

12 million boats are registered, but only about 140,000 see
below, or 1.2% are auxiliary sail, with slightly over have
being outboards. I don't know how you could think 40% of all
boats are sail!

Agreed. I was looking in 2002 for comparable figures in aviation
and vehicles as well. In 2002 the CG recorded 216,657 auxiliary
sailboats and 123,772 sail boats (340,429 - 2.5% of the total
fleet) with possibly a further 50,000 from states which did not
require registration of these vessels, but required power only
registration. I know - 3%. Good thing you were there to check!

Deaths pa 800 (5 times as many injuries)
The death rate has dropped about to 700 or less for 4 of the
last 5 years, there has been a significant trend towards safety
in recent years.

Agreed. The year I was looking at 5,705 accidents, 4,062 injuries
and 750 fatalities.

0.25 per 100,000 of population

Assuming you've 300,000,000 people living in US

7 per 100,000 boats

5.77 to be exact. I was doing back of the envelope comparisons
between different transport modes, and 20% error either way made
no difference to the argument.

2.8 per 10,000,000 hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat
pa)
This has to be hugely overstated, but what's the point?

However: sailboats are only 1% of deaths.

Sorry, 1.5%, but with only 11 deaths the percentage assumption is
weak.

Sailboat related deaths occur in almost exactly the same
proportion as their numbers in the registered fleet. They
probably are statistically safer if you could include all of the
unregistered human powered vehicles (which also includes some
sailboats) since canoes and kayaks are a major source of
fatalities.

Broadly agreed. We had been selecting different elements of the
stats for different purposes, and on my game sailboats plus
auxiliary sailboats had roughly half the death rate (hangs head in
shame about bogus 40%).

Very much agree with all your other (snipped) comments. It's good
to see a rational discussion with bad assumptions/statements being
corrected like this.

The point of my original quotation of rates per 100,000 etc was to
show the following(now corrected!)
-------------------------------------
Cars. (number not known by me)

38,000 deaths pa, (10 times as many injuries).
15 per 100,000 population (UK, about 7/100,000)
1.5 per 100,000,000 miles
4.5 per 10,000,000 hours

Source: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/
--------------------------------------
Boats (12,000,000)

Deaths pa 750 (5 times as many injuries), 5000 accidents
0.25 deaths per 100,000 of population
6 deaths per 100,000 boats
2.8 deaths per 10,000,000 boating hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs
per boat pa)

Source:
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2002.pdf
---------------------------------------
General Aviation (220,000 aircraft, 30,000,000 hours flown)

Deaths pa 600 (1,800 accidents)
0.2 deaths per 100,000 population
270 deaths per 100,000 aircraft
200 deaths per 10,000,000 flying hours

Source: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/ARG0401.pdf
----------------------------------------------

The idea was to put some factual scale into rants about relative
safety of different leisure occupations.

Apologies to those who've been bored by these tables before.
They're more accurate now.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

How does the "recreational mind set" modify or accentuate stupid
behavior and is such behavior encouraged by the promotion of the
activity? Good point though that seems to apply almost universally
inall activity. Knowing that, auto manufacturers have designed cars to
anticipate 'some" stupid behaviors.

RT

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

News f2s wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..

I have trouble following your logic, and where did you get those
numbers???

here's a good source:
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...dent_stats.htm

same source, excepting a correction in sailboat numbers for those
states which don't require sailboats and auxiliary sailboats to be
registers. *However* serious finger trouble on my part and lack of
double checking changed 4% into 40%!

-------------------------------------------
Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%)

12 million boats are registered, but only about 140,000 see
below, or 1.2% are auxiliary sail, with slightly over have
being outboards. I don't know how you could think 40% of all
boats are sail!

Agreed. I was looking in 2002 for comparable figures in aviation
and vehicles as well. In 2002 the CG recorded 216,657 auxiliary
sailboats and 123,772 sail boats (340,429 - 2.5% of the total
fleet) with possibly a further 50,000 from states which did not
require registration of these vessels, but required power only
registration. I know - 3%. Good thing you were there to check!

The 2002 numbers are quite quirky. In the several years before, and
several years after, the number of auxiliary sailboats is about
140,000, or 1.2% of the fleet. How 75000 sailboats suddenly appeared
in 2002 and then disappeared in 2003 is beyond me. The only aux
sailboats not registered would be in some states that waive
registration of vessels with engines under 10 hp, and I don't think
many of those are left.

Unpowered sailboats are hardly worth considering because the numbers
are so unreliable. In addition to the problems in counting them, I've
never heard of an accident (other than a fatality) on a small boat
being reported.

And certainly, in a discussion about propeller strikes, including
unpowered vessels isn't fair!

....
The point of my original quotation of rates per 100,000 etc was to
show the following(now corrected!)
-------------------------------------
Cars. (number not known by me)
....
4.5 per 10,000,000 hours
....
2.8 deaths per 10,000,000 boating hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs
per boat pa)

Remember, if your guess of 250 hours is high by a factor of 2, then
boats are more dangerous (by the hour) then cars.

Boat Safety - and thread arguments

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

The 2002 numbers are quite quirky. In the several years before,
and several years after, the number of auxiliary sailboats is
about 140,000, or 1.2% of the fleet. How 75000 sailboats
suddenly appeared in 2002 and then disappeared in 2003 is beyond
me.

Sure , take your word for it.

And certainly, in a discussion about propeller strikes,
including unpowered vessels isn't fair!

Didn't intend that . Agreed. My thesis, earlier in the thread, was
tackling the comparative risks between Autos, Aviation and Boats.
So I jumped into a discussion on a different beam.

Remember, if your guess of 250 hours is high by a factor of 2,
then boats are more dangerous (by the hour) then cars.

Sure. Except in UK. We seem to have very safe roads; heaven knows
why, they're so crowded!

It was the Aviation stats that interested me. An earlier argument
in this forum contended that Genreal Aviation flying was safer
then whatever. The imputaion was that the insurance hikes in
general aviation may invade boating if boating third party boat
insurance was made compulsory. I couldn't swallow that, so I went
home to do the work. You can see the numbers. It's not often you
see two orders of difference in the risks. Trivialises other
activities. I'll go with the idea that boating risks are similar
to car risks. That's why insurance premiums per capital value are
similar.

Private aircraft? Whoa there! different game! 10 times the risk?
100 times the risk? Who cares about the odd 20% here or there.
Definitely dodgy.

Perspective - which you have. Picks up stupid errors.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas