Insurance early warning?
 

There's been some discussion recently about what insurance has done to
aviation. It could come to boating someday.

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a
boat more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Any chance this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad
weather?

--

Roger Long

Insurance early warning?
 

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:49:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a
boat more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Any chance this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad
weather?

Getting insurance on older boats has been an issue for quite awhile
but now it is getting worse, a lot worse in places like Florida and
the Gulf Coast. It's not just boats either, houses also. Our home
insurance just doubled last week and we've had no claims. It just
happens to be a 1978 house however, built before the new FL codes went
into effect. We are on the water but 10 miles inland from the Gulf,
and about 1,000 ft in from the river.

Two years ago when we bought our 1981 GB trawler, insurance almost
broke the deal because it was so difficult to get, and that was before
the latest bunch of bad storms. We know people who have clauses in
their policy stating that the boat can not be below latitude 31
degrees during the hurricane season (roughly the South Carolina
border).

Insurance early warning?
 

Roger ,,, you have nothing to worry about. The USA Government will take
care of you. Pres Bush, the Senate, the Congress, the New Jersey State
Legislature ... you are covered.

Why? Because you are the front man on license fees. With all the money the
corrupt government is going to collect from the sheep like you, the kickback
to the insurance industry shouldn't cut into the till at all.

There will be plenty of money for everyone!

GEICO ,,, the little green lizard will say "thank you Roger" on tv.

============
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
There's been some discussion recently about what insurance has done to
aviation. It could come to boating someday.

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a boat
more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar? Any chance
this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad weather?

--

Roger Long

Insurance early warning?
 

Wayne.B wrote:

Getting insurance on older boats has been an issue for quite awhile
but now it is getting worse, a lot worse in places like Florida and
the Gulf Coast. It's not just boats either, houses also. Our home
insurance just doubled last week and we've had no claims.

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.

Insurance early warning?
 

Yes. Here's what came out of the owner's forum:

It is a problem. Many of the major insurors adopted underwriting
guidelines recently, claiming they have done this to limit exposure,
presumably as a response to major hurricane losses. I wrote quite a
lot of sailboat coverage, including my own Endeavour 32, thru Safeco,
and they adopted guidelines that do not permit binding coverage on
boats over 26' in length, older boats, or wooden boats.
Unfortunately, other companies have also followed suite and finding
reasonably priced coverage has become more difficult. I am just now
getting into trying to identify companies that will write this type
coverage myself

--

Roger Long

Insurance early warning?
 

Dave wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:53:44 -0400, prodigal1 said:


Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.


Why is there always some genius in a group who seems to think that 1000
members of the govment employees' local union are going to do a better job
than people with a profit motive? Such economic ignorance never ceases to
astound me.


Gee Dave.. how many shares do you have in the oil companies etc.
We had this debate recently here, and although the majority of people
were convinced we'd do better under a public insurance system, the
provincial govrnment commissioned endless studies and decided that the
market was being served. I wonder if that was before or after usual
party donations were received?

Insurance early warning?
 

Sheesh! Not again. Why can't I start a thread without it turning into
another political spat?

--

Roger Long



"Don White" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:53:44 -0400, prodigal1 said:


Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring
parasitic entities such as "insurance companies" to heel?
_Long_past_time_ for public insurance I think. Something that
meets the needs of the insured rather than the greed of the
stockholders of the insurance companies.


Why is there always some genius in a group who seems to think that
1000
members of the govment employees' local union are going to do a
better job
than people with a profit motive? Such economic ignorance never
ceases to
astound me.


Gee Dave.. how many shares do you have in the oil companies etc.
We had this debate recently here, and although the majority of
people were convinced we'd do better under a public insurance
system, the provincial govrnment commissioned endless studies and
decided that the market was being served. I wonder if that was
before or after usual party donations were received?

Insurance early warning?
 

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
Wayne.B wrote:

Getting insurance on older boats has been an issue for quite awhile
but now it is getting worse, a lot worse in places like Florida and
the Gulf Coast. It's not just boats either, houses also. Our home
insurance just doubled last week and we've had no claims.

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.

Public insurance translated means government run insurance.............no
thanks.

Why are you so bitter about insurance company's? They are in the business
of making a profit for their shareholders....and adjust rates accordingly to
attain that goal. Don't like what one company charges....find another.
There are plenty to go around. Don't like the high rates you pay because
you live in hurricane alley.......then move.

We are all paying for the hurricane damage to your boats, cars and houses
with our insurance premiums and with our taxes through government subsidies
and other government spending. I for one am damn tired of doing so.

So pay up or move. Don't ask me to continue to subsidize you though.

Insurance early warning?
 

Don White wrote:

Gee Dave.. how many shares do you have in the oil companies etc.
We had this debate recently here, and although the majority of people
were convinced we'd do better under a public insurance system, the
provincial govrnment commissioned endless studies and decided that the
market was being served. I wonder if that was before or after usual
party donations were received?
Hah! Such a cynic! ;-)
I've kf'd "the Dave" but it's actually helpful that you quoted him. His
rant illustrates my point. Sheeple like "the Dave" line up to get
fleeced by "insurance" companies, and seemingly enjoy the experience so
much, they can't conceive of getting anything _but_ fleeced. Curious
how BC's Republican wannabe premier Gordon Campbell hasn't privatised
the public Insurance Corporation of BC. Why let all that profit go into
private hands when it can help pay for roads, schools and hospitals.

Insurance early warning?
 

Roger Long wrote:
Sheesh! Not again. Why can't I start a thread without it turning into
another political spat?

How can you not discuss insurance without the context of politics?
"Spat"? Debate is good. Disagreement is fine when done in an
intellectually healthy fashion. Those who engage in ad hominem populate
my killfile.

Insurance early warning?
 

Roger Long wrote:
There's been some discussion recently about what insurance has done to
aviation. It could come to boating someday.

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a
boat more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Any chance this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad
weather?

--

Roger Long

Hi Roger:

Gtood question!
Instead of turning this into a useless polital thread with 189 post
I'll try this:

Boat: 39.3', 1979, solid glass hull
Insured Valued: $69,000
Enviornmetal clean up $500,000
Liability: $500,000
Medical: $25,000 per incident
Area of operation: PNW, Out about 100 miles.
Premium/year: $304






Company................ Allstate

Please list your rates. Maybe we can do somthing or at least be better
informed.
Bob

Insurance early warning?
 

Hi Roger,

Having been a pilot since the mid-1970's, I watched the
insurance debacle in aviation unfold. I expect that you did
also.

IIRC, the problem was not with the insurance companies per
se, but with the change in juries attitudes toward aviation
accidents. Juries became much more willing to blame the
manufacturers and to "send a message" by assessing punitive
damages against pilots estates, repair facilities, component
manufacturers, and the airplane manufacturers. All of the
small plane manufacturers that I know of with the exception
of Beechcraft were either driven into bankruptcy, or stopped
producing small airplanes.
The insurance companies responded to the dramatically
increased jury awards by raising the insurance premiums for
pilots, maintenance facilities, and manufacturers. At one
point, the product liability insurance on Cessna light
planes was higher than the manufacturing cost of the
airplane!! The cost of new airplanes more than doubled in a
couple of years because the manufacturers had to add the new
product liability insurance costs to the sales price. Now
we have new airplanes that cost more than most peoples
houses, and very few insurance companies to choose from.
The few aviation insurance underwriters that are out there
often refuse outright to insure pilots until they meet the
minimum experience criterion set up by the underwriter.

This relates to boating because Florida and the Gulf coast
have been hammered pretty regularly the last couple of
years, and the predictions are that this will continue for
some time. I'm under the impression that most insurance
companies do not "self insure", but hedge their risks by
buying larger polices from groups such as Lloyds, etc. When
the underwriters payouts become too much for what they are
charging, the cost of insurance is going to go up. If the
perceived risk becomes unacceptable, the underwriters are
going to drop out of the market altogether, and insurance
will be unobtainable at any price. Of course that is not a
problem if you own your boat outright, and are willing to
lose it if things go badly. ;-) It is only the bankers who
force people to buy insurance, and only then to make sure
that they don't lose their collateral.

I don't expect boat insurance will be difficult to obtain or
particularly expensive _unless_ you live in an area that is
at risk from the more active Atlantic hurricane seasons.
(Check out all the salvage boats on EBAY that were sunk by
Katrina).

Regards,

Don W.


Roger Long wrote:
There's been some discussion recently about what insurance has done to
aviation. It could come to boating someday.

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a
boat more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Any chance this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad
weather?

Insurance early warning?
 

Dave wrote:
That sounds like a helluva deal. Practical sailor just ran a comparison, but
I don't think they showed anything near that low. Rates seem to go up as you
go south, both because of hurricanes and because of more months in the
water.

Who's your carrier?

Hi Dave........

Ya, that is what I thought too. When I bought my boat August 2001 I
experinced the same as other posters: Boat to old to get a loan. Boat
too old to get insurance. A surveyor while in Port Townsend WA
mentioned quietly to try Allstate.

I am in the PNW and since I got the coverage in 2001 have stayed in the
area. I am dreading my insurance options when I headout in 2007.

I also have never made a claim. I do get a "safe boater" discount for
having one of thoes dreaded state boat driver license. I did not think
they needed to know about my "other" license. Did not want to mix work
and recreation.
Livin' on the cheep, Bob


PS Oh you wont belive how much I pay for a 40' slip

Insurance early warning?
 

prodigal1 wrote:

Hah! Such a cynic! ;-)
I've kf'd "the Dave" but it's actually helpful that you quoted him. His
rant illustrates my point. Sheeple like "the Dave" line up to get
fleeced by "insurance" companies, and seemingly enjoy the experience so
much, they can't conceive of getting anything _but_ fleeced. Curious
how BC's Republican wannabe premier Gordon Campbell hasn't privatised
the public Insurance Corporation of BC. Why let all that profit go into
private hands when it can help pay for roads, schools and hospitals.

I was putting the first gas in my newly leased Ford Ranger pickup this
afternoon. While mildly complaining to the girl at the booth about the
$1.14 liter price of self-serve regular, she informed me that she just
came down from BC and can't believe how high our gas prices *and*
insurance rates are. Said she can't afford to drive her car in Nova
Scotia and the $1800.00 yearly insurance rate here was only $900.00 in BC.
I said that wasn't too bad for a young person, but she said she's 27
with 10 years driving under her belt.

Insurance early warning?
 

Well said Dave ..

====

Of course Roger could do what I do ... NO INSURANCE.

I rely on ME.

If the boat sinks,, that is the way it goes!


------------------------------------------------------
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:53:44 -0400, prodigal1 said:

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.

Why is there always some genius in a group who seems to think that 1000
members of the govment employees' local union are going to do a better job
than people with a profit motive? Such economic ignorance never ceases to
astound me.

Insurance early warning?
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Well said Dave ..

====

Of course Roger could do what I do ... NO INSURANCE.

I rely on ME.

If the boat sinks,, that is the way it goes!


I thought you were still looking for a boat?

Insurance early warning?
 

Why would you need marine insurance without a boat?

(If anyone ever sees proof that he actually bought that "BIG" boat in
Maine that "is being painted right now", please let me know and maybe
I'll un-killfile him.)

--

Roger Long



"Don White" wrote in message
...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Well said Dave ..

====

Of course Roger could do what I do ... NO INSURANCE.

I rely on ME.

If the boat sinks,, that is the way it goes!


I thought you were still looking for a boat?

Insurance early warning?
 

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:17:04 -0400, JimH wrote:

Public insurance translated means government run insurance.............no
thanks.

I'm presuming you're American (osudad) and have never had any experience
with public insurance, so I have to ask myself on what your rejection of
the idea is based. Ideology? pfftt.... There are places in the world
where this works very well. People get the coverage they want, at rates
they find acceptable AND profits go toward public services like schools,
roads, hospitals... What's not to like?

Why are you so bitter about insurance company's?

I've had long experience with private insurance.....no thanks. Rates and
policies are legalised theft and extortion.

They are in the business
of making a profit for their shareholders....

My point exactly, their primary reasons for being are not to meet the
needs of those paying for their services, but rather to increase profit.
It just boggles my mind that so many cannot see the inherent
inappropriateness of this scenario.

and adjust rates accordingly
to attain that goal. Don't like what one company charges....find
another. There are plenty to go around.

And where I live you can't find a statistically significant difference
in premiums between any of the companies.

Don't like the high rates you
pay because you live in hurricane alley.......then move.

Don't live in hurricane alley...top end of tornado alley. I shouldn't
have to even contemplate moving because the company I pay large $$ to
insure against potential loss, inflates rates to show profits more in line
with stock trader's "earnings expectations" than to cover actual losses
and still show a profit. Big difference there.

We are all paying for the hurricane damage to your boats, cars and
houses with our insurance premiums and with our taxes through government
subsidies and other government spending. I for one am damn tired of
doing so.

So pay up or move. Don't ask me to continue to subsidize you though.

now I understand, you're allright, but anyone who suffers a loss can go
pound salt. Nice. I don't get it. You along with
tens of millions of other premium payers will willingly keep coughing up
more and more $$ for less and less coverage, all the while blaming the
increasing cost of premiums on claimants --which isn't at all the main
cause-- and yet never consider for a moment that there might be a better
insurance solution that meets the insurance customer's needs first.
Absolutely bizarre.

Insurance early warning?
 

On 11 Apr 2006 15:18:01 -0500, Dave wrote:

While nobody else "forces" people to insure their boats, my impression is
that most boats are insured whether or not purchased on credit.

If you have assets other than your boat, and hopefully you do, going
without insurance is extremely unwise. One serious liability or
environmental claim could force you into bankruptcy. If nothing else,
the insurance company will defend the claim with seriously competent
lawyers, at their expense.

Insurance early warning?
 

prodigal1 wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

Getting insurance on older boats has been an issue for quite awhile
but now it is getting worse, a lot worse in places like Florida and
the Gulf Coast. It's not just boats either, houses also. Our home
insurance just doubled last week and we've had no claims.

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.

Then every policy could be like social security. Buster - government is
the PROBLEM. It's not the solution to anything.

Insurance early warning?
 

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel?

Insurance companies aren't any more parasitic than any other
companies.

.... Something that meets the needs of the
insured rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance
companies.


If "the greed of the stockholders" is a problem, you can
calm yourself thinking about the lack of barriers to buying
insurance company stock yourself.

Frankly, most publicly held corporations hand over far more
money to their Board of Directors and particularly to the
few selected company officers than they do to their
stockholders.


Paul Cassel wrote:
Then every policy could be like social security.

Yep.
Sort of like the way not-for-profit insurance companies
operate now.

.. Buster - government is
the PROBLEM. It's not the solution to anything.

Ah, that's what I like. A nice calm well-reasoned and
non-ideological answer for everything!

Insurance of all types is legalized gambling. They don't
even get a house percentage... they do hire some very clever
mathematicians to try and tilt the odds slightly in their
favor, but if they tilt too much then they lose business to
somebody offering the same coverage at lower price.

Now, if somebody were to talk about reducing the obscurity &
complexity of the legal language in insurance contracts, and
maybe talk about outlawing certain kinds of advertising (or
just effectively enforcing current laws against fraud), NOW
we'd be getting somewhere.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Insurance early warning?
 

I pay about $330 for Allstate insurance on a 40 footer. My last boat,
a 27 footer, I paid slightly less for. I made a claim when I dismasted,
and Allstate came through and treated me fairly. I was pleased it
worked at all. Mostly, I carry insurance for liability, and for
medical to help those that might get hurt. Sure, it's great to get
compensated for the loss of your boat, but if it's your own fault,
well, take some responsibility.

However much I like Allstate Insurance, I'm farily certain they will
not insure in the hurricane "box" during that season. But then who
wants to be there during that season anyway?

As far as the political debate regarding gubmint vs private, any
organization that is HUGE is likely slow to respond. I've heard endless
complaints about the government, some of which are quite valid. On the
other hand, there are tons of private corporations that suck big time
too, can't get out of their own way, lousy customer service, etc. So I
think it's more about size and organization than Government Vs Private
Sector.

Insurance early warning?
 

Luc,,, I just spoke to a fellow who has his boat in Ft Myers , Fla. His
insurance company told him either move the boat or they were dropping him ..

Now he doesn't know what to do.. He said most of the old hurricane holes are
out do to developement.

He said that is why so many boats are for sale in Florida. He said that his
boating buddys are planning now for the hurricane season. Many are getting
their boats was up rivers to avoid the mess.

=================
"Luc" wrote in message
oups.com...
I pay about $330 for Allstate insurance on a 40 footer. My last boat,
a 27 footer, I paid slightly less for. I made a claim when I dismasted,
and Allstate came through and treated me fairly. I was pleased it
worked at all. Mostly, I carry insurance for liability, and for
medical to help those that might get hurt. Sure, it's great to get
compensated for the loss of your boat, but if it's your own fault,
well, take some responsibility.

However much I like Allstate Insurance, I'm farily certain they will
not insure in the hurricane "box" during that season. But then who
wants to be there during that season anyway?

As far as the political debate regarding gubmint vs private, any
organization that is HUGE is likely slow to respond. I've heard endless
complaints about the government, some of which are quite valid. On the
other hand, there are tons of private corporations that suck big time
too, can't get out of their own way, lousy customer service, etc. So I
think it's more about size and organization than Government Vs Private
Sector.

Insurance early warning?
 

prodigal1 writes:

Those who engage in ad hominem populate
my killfile.

Heheh. For minute on my fuzzy display I thought you wrote, "populate my
kibble".

Insurance early warning?
 

Luc wrote:
I pay about $330 for Allstate insurance on a 40 footer. My last boat,
a 27 footer, I paid slightly less for. I made a claim when I dismasted,

Hi Luc:
I pay $304 for Allstate insurance on my 39' .
I ahve not had a claim yet. But your experience sounds reasuring. That
wa my big conmcern. A cheep premium is wothless if the company denies
your claim or drops y9ou after a claim.

I wnated to use USAA. Really rock bottom rates for auto......... but
they would not touch boats over 20 yo. Darn.

Anybody else have Allstate or another company that is cheeper that
Luc's $330 or my $304?
Bob

Insurance early warning?
 

Bob wrote:
Luc wrote:
I pay about $330 for Allstate insurance on a 40 footer. My last
boat, a 27 footer, I paid slightly less for. I made a claim when I
dismasted,

Hi Luc:
I pay $304 for Allstate insurance on my 39' .
I ahve not had a claim yet. But your experience sounds reasuring. That
wa my big conmcern. A cheep premium is wothless if the company denies
your claim or drops y9ou after a claim.

Those rates seem to be somewaht cheaper than British rates, and we don't get
any huirrcanes over here!

As for gas, try $160 per litre for starters. The pips are squeaking, and the
government is about to abolish the "red diesel" scheme for pleasure boaters.

You've a long way to go yet! :-)

Dennis.

Insurance early warning?
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure your aircraft experience carries over to pleasure
boats. My
impression is that there aren't many lawyers out their seeking
to make big
bucks from pleasure boat accidents. (Thank God for small
favors.) But I
suppose if we see a couple of class actions in the area that
could change.

There isn't enough money in smaller boats for lawyers to 'go for'
their manufacturers or their owners. And for larger vessels
there's an excellent international insurance market - very
competitive - and it's easy for them to register in more friendly
locations than USA.

Small boat insurance is very similar to car insurance - lots of
little people with not a lot of money. Only a few who are really
well off. And, unlike cars, very few healthy big corporate
manufacturers to chase for product liability. I just don't see
Roger's aviation scenario developing.

But I do see high risk areas being identified by insurers. Small
vessels and hurricane seasons don't go well together. Small, high
energy vessels can do a lot of damage. People without skills or
experience are more likely to create damage.

As for those who have been criticising the profit motive of
insurers (and suggesting public insurance) earlier in this thread,
most of them did not understand the business model. Insurance is a
cash flow business. You borrow cash up front. You invest that cash
and make most of your profit from those investments. At
statistically predictable rates, you have to pay back these loans.
If you assessed your risks well, you pay back a little less than
you received and your business grows. And vice versa. But you
don't know the answers to that equation until three or four years
after the event.

By all means let public insurance compete with private insurance.
But you need some safeguards to make sure that that cash flow
doesn't disappear into the public spending maw. Because it's going
to have to be re-paid! By whom? The taxpayer.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas

Insurance early warning?
 

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:17:04 -0400, JimH wrote:

Public insurance translated means government run insurance.............no
thanks.

I'm presuming you're American (osudad) and have never had any experience
with public insurance, so I have to ask myself on what your rejection of
the idea is based.

I take it your not an American...........otherwise you would know that
whatever our Government touches turns corrupt or bloated with
beauracracy........and most inefficient. The one exception is the Post
Office.


Ideology? pfftt.... There are places in the world
where this works very well.


As I am sure there are places in the workld where it does not.


People get the coverage they want, at rates
they find acceptable AND profits go toward public services like schools,
roads, hospitals... What's not to like?

That's funny!



Why are you so bitter about insurance company's?

I've had long experience with private insurance.....no thanks. Rates and
policies are legalised theft and extortion.

They are in the business
of making a profit for their shareholders....

My point exactly, their primary reasons for being are not to meet the
needs of those paying for their services, but rather to increase profit.

Yep. And controled by the States and most importantly the public by simply
going to another provider when rates are out of line.

And they must also meet the needs of the customers.....otherwise the
customer goes elsewhere.



It just boggles my mind that so many cannot see the inherent
inappropriateness of this scenario.

and adjust rates accordingly
to attain that goal. Don't like what one company charges....find
another. There are plenty to go around.

And where I live you can't find a statistically significant difference
in premiums between any of the companies.

Where do you live?



Don't like the high rates you
pay because you live in hurricane alley.......then move.

Don't live in hurricane alley...top end of tornado alley. I shouldn't
have to even contemplate moving because the company I pay large $$ to
insure against potential loss, inflates rates to show profits more in line
with stock trader's "earnings expectations" than to cover actual losses
and still show a profit. Big difference there.

We are all paying for the hurricane damage to your boats, cars and
houses with our insurance premiums and with our taxes through government
subsidies and other government spending. I for one am damn tired of
doing so.

So pay up or move. Don't ask me to continue to subsidize you though.

now I understand, you're allright, but anyone who suffers a loss can go
pound salt.

No, anyone who chooses to live in a hurricane prone area needs to pay the
price for doing so. It is all about choice.


Nice. I don't get it. You along with
tens of millions of other premium payers will willingly keep coughing up
more and more $$ for less and less coverage, all the while blaming the
increasing cost of premiums on claimants --which isn't at all the main
cause-- and yet never consider for a moment that there might be a better
insurance solution that meets the insurance customer's needs first.
Absolutely bizarre.


You know absolutely nothing about insurance. Your last statement proved it.

Insurance early warning?
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:11:10 -0400, Wayne.B
said:

While nobody else "forces" people to insure their boats, my impression is
that most boats are insured whether or not purchased on credit.

If you have assets other than your boat, and hopefully you do, going
without insurance is extremely unwise. One serious liability or
environmental claim could force you into bankruptcy. If nothing else,
the insurance company will defend the claim with seriously competent
lawyers, at their expense.

That's a slightly different issue. What people seem to have trouble
grasping
is that insurance is for risks you can't afford to assume yourself. You
pay
someone else to take on those risks. For those you can afford, you carry
them yourself and save the money you'd otherwise pay an insurer.


Bingo!

Insurance early warning?
 

Frankly, most publicly held corporations hand over far more
money to their Board of Directors and particularly to the
few selected company officers than they do to their
stockholders.


Dave wrote:
Fees paid to board members in that capacity are pretty small in light of the
liabilities they undertake and the time many spend.

Bull****.

WTF can any one person do that's worth 200 million dollars?
Especially when the shareholders are losing money and the
employees are losing their jobs? And many officers at the
big corps would sneer at this as lunch money. Not even
enough to buy a Senator.

The publicly held corporation is one of the truest forms of
democracy, but it has been widely abused. As more and more
people come to realize that their retirement plans are built
on quicksand, this will probably become a blazing political
issue... and rightly so.

DSK

Insurance early warning?
 

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:17:39 -0400, JimH wrote:

I take it your not an American...........otherwise you would know that
whatever our Government touches turns corrupt or bloated with
beauracracy........and most inefficient.

ahhh...if only life were so black and white...
no Jim, I'm not an American, and --apparently unlke you-- I have had
experience with both public and private insurance, and I can tell you from
experience that the private system is not to be preferred. You keep
paying your premiums and I'll continue looking for a better way.

Insurance early warning?
 

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:58:12 -0500, Richard J Kinch wrote:

prodigal1 writes:

Those who engage in ad hominem populate my killfile.

Heheh. For minute on my fuzzy display I thought you wrote, "populate my
kibble".
Heh...well for some whose thinking is just a little too fuzzy I do tend to
sharpen my teeth on them for a few minutes before dumping them into the
bin.
...time for a new monitor eh?

Insurance early warning?
 

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:17:39 -0400, JimH wrote:

I take it your not an American...........otherwise you would know that
whatever our Government touches turns corrupt or bloated with
beauracracy........and most inefficient.

ahhh...if only life were so black and white...
no Jim, I'm not an American, and --apparently unlke you-- I have had
experience with both public and private insurance, and I can tell you from
experience that the private system is not to be preferred. You keep
paying your premiums and I'll continue looking for a better way.


Socialist? Me thinks so. ;-)

Insurance early warning?
 

News f2s wrote:

As for those who have been criticising the profit motive of
insurers (and suggesting public insurance) earlier in this thread,
most of them did not understand the business model.

Au contraire mon frère, I understand the business model perfectly. What
I don't understand is the lemming-like response of consumers of
insurance products. The product marketed by private companies don't
meet the consumer's needs, yet for some inexplicable reason the consumer
continues to purchase a poor-quality good. FUD merchants and other
apologists for this scam suggest finding another marketer of an equally
flawed product. Bizarre. I think someone is injecting a constant
low-level dose of LSD into drinking water systems in the US.

Insurance is a
cash flow business.

obviousness snipped

By all means let public insurance compete with private insurance.
But you need some safeguards to make sure that that cash flow
doesn't disappear into the public spending maw. Because it's going
to have to be re-paid! By whom? The taxpayer.

Nonsense. Publicly run insurance companies such as the Insurance
Corporation of British Columbia are profitable entities. These profits
reduce the pressure for increases in property tax rates in BC. Roads,
schools and hospitals are not a "public spending maw". Private
insurance companies have outlived any usefulness they may have had to
their customers.

Insurance early warning?
 

Fees paid to board members in that capacity are pretty small in light of the
liabilities they undertake and the time many spend.

Bull****.

WTF can any one person do that's worth 200 million dollars?


Dave wrote:
Is there a company that pays directors' fees of $200 million?

Ah well, "fees" is something different, so that's all right
isn't it? Did I start out by referring *only* to "fees?"


.... Directors' fees generally run in the range of $1,000 to
$2,500 per meeting for 12 meetings per year. No pay at all for meeting
preparation and one on one discussions with the CEO and CFO.


Aww, poor babies.

When CEOs pocket hundreds of millions for directly violating
a vote of the shareholders, and damaging the company
besides, then what incentive could they possibly have to
make any positive contribution, much less millions worth?
The incentive is to kiss butt until you get into a position
start grabbing the loot, then twist arms to maximize your
take. And that's exactly what is happening to the U.S. economy.

DSK

Insurance early warning?
 

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
News f2s wrote:

As for those who have been criticising the profit motive of
insurers (and suggesting public insurance) earlier in this
thread, most of them did not understand the business model.

Au contraire mon frère,

Ah. French. Strong believers in the (old soviet idea) that the
state can always do things better.

I understand the business model perfectly.

I did say 'most', so you're allowed to differ in your views.

What I don't understand is the lemming-like response of
consumers of insurance products. The product marketed by
private companies don't meet the consumer's needs, yet for some
inexplicable reason the consumer continues to purchase a
poor-quality good.

It's called persuasive marketing. Personally, I'm scared stiff
that certain incidents could remove a vast amount of my wealth and
tie me up in court for a few years. So I buy insurance . . . third
party for driving boats, cars . . . also for medical insurance
while travelling in USA. It may be your opinion that this is a
poor quality good. I hope you have the financial resources to
handle any third party claims which may arise due your actions.

Each person will make their own judgements about the degree to
which they wish to self-insure. I, too, think that many people
don't recognise a lot of poor value products. Not just in
insurance, but in the whole range of products available to any
consumer. Fine. That's the market place.

By all means let public insurance compete with private
insurance. But you need some safeguards to make sure that that
cash flow doesn't disappear into the public spending maw.
Because it's going to have to be re-paid! By whom? The
taxpayer.

Nonsense.

Why nonsense? If I accept that your one public example is well
run, that does not prove that what I said is nonsense. It merely
means that (in this instance) appropriate safeguards are in place.

Publicly run insurance companies such as the Insurance
Corporation of British Columbia are profitable entities. These
profits reduce the pressure for increases in property tax rates
in BC. Roads, schools and hospitals are not a "public spending
maw". Private insurance companies have outlived any usefulness
they may have had to their customers.

I would hazard a guess that private insurance had set the
standards which public insurance had to improve on. And I would
hope that private insurance is still available to compete with the
public products. If not, you have a classic monopoly problem - no
checks on costs, no incentive to innovate and improve.

The fact that the public insurance business is used to finance
infrastructure development may (or may not) be a good investment.
I'm sorry I called it a 'public spending maw'. This finance
reduces the public borrowing requirement - improves the balance
sheet. This is a popular wheeze with governments and companies
alike. Disguise the debt.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas

Insurance early warning?
 

DSK wrote:
Fees paid to board members in that capacity are pretty small in
light of the
liabilities they undertake and the time many spend.


Bull****.

WTF can any one person do that's worth 200 million dollars?



Dave wrote:

Is there a company that pays directors' fees of $200 million?


Ah well, "fees" is something different, so that's all right isn't it?
Did I start out by referring *only* to "fees?"


.... Directors' fees generally run in the range of $1,000 to
$2,500 per meeting for 12 meetings per year. No pay at all for meeting
preparation and one on one discussions with the CEO and CFO.


Aww, poor babies.

When CEOs pocket hundreds of millions for directly violating a vote of
the shareholders, and damaging the company besides, then what incentive
could they possibly have to make any positive contribution, much less
millions worth? The incentive is to kiss butt until you get into a
position start grabbing the loot, then twist arms to maximize your take.
And that's exactly what is happening to the U.S. economy.

DSK


Those CEOs are the ones who should be treated as traitors. In the long
term, they are as much a dander to the US & Canadian economies as any
terrorist.

Insurance early warning?
 

Don White wrote:
*correction*

Those CEOs are the ones who should be treated as traitors. In the long
term, they are as much a *danger* to the US & Canadian economies as any
terrorist.

Insurance early warning?
 

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:20:03 -0400, DSK said:


When CEOs pocket hundreds of millions for directly violating
a vote of the shareholders


Dave wrote:
What ever are you talking about here?

I can give you an excellent example- HP buying Compaq, a
move which threw tens of million$ down a rat-hole and helped
neither company. Voted down by HP stockholders, of which I
was one at the time.

There are other examples, but that the biggest and most
publicly known.



... A shareholder vote
against the board's proposal is a very unusual event.

That's true, but it's not unusual enough. For another
example, every single mutual fund in which we own shares has
amended their charter to loan money overseas. If I wanted to
be in that business, one presumes I would have invested in
it instead of a specific mutual fund which was supposed to
concentrate it's investments elsewhere.

The raw fact is that you can make more money with a gun than
by selling a good product, and in it's current incarnation
"market capitalism" is a race to the bottom. Corporate
"leadership" that pushes toward legalized robbery as a means
of boosting profit, while pocketing all that profit & more,
is not productive.

In short, you're on a really wobbly plank here Dave. Of
course you are ideologically on the side of the corporate
thieves, but do you ever wonder how "conservatism" got you
there?

Regards
Doug King

Insurance early warning: ? for USAA Dave
 

Dave wrote:

I insure my 27 year old boat with USAA.

Hello Dave:

You do?!?!

Tell me about it. I am very interested. When I was going through the
survey, loan, insurance dance for some reason I remember calling USAA
and talking it over with them and getting a smile and a sorry Charlie.

What kind of boat do you have?
What region do you keep you boat?
What type of survey did they require?
Did you use a secret handshake or something?

I wonder where I got the idea USAA would not carry my boat. I have
their car insurance. Great service and incredible cheep road service .
I think a few bucks per year?
I'll be waiting for your reply before giving them another call.
THANKS!
Bob