Suits vs Rafts
 

Keeping in mind that even the safety budget is not bottomless, I'm
trying to figure out the best plan for dire emergencies. Yes, ideally
I would have survival suits, serious life raft, and tons of signalling
electronics. In reality I'm constrained by both cost and space. Up to
now I have been coastal cruising with dinghy and PFDs like just about
everybody else around here.

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions and I would like to hear them.

Ryk



--
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Suits vs Rafts
 

Ryk wrote in
:

cold fresh water

One well-inspected and repacked life raft.
One well-packed ditch bag
One 406 Mhz GPS-enhanced EPIRB, automatic energizing.
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/beacon.html
http://www.equipped.com/406testing.htm
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/epirb.htm

Here's the one on our ditchbag:
http://www.anchorexpress.com/2744-jacket.html
Hmm....street price has gone up with dollar's constant devaluation....

with the GPS, it'll tell 'em within 3 ft of ITS location. The helo homes
in on that and the 121.5 Mhz tiny beacon in close.

What's the family's life worth, anyway? My big PC monitor is about this
price.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Ryk wrote:
Keeping in mind that even the safety budget is not bottomless, I'm
trying to figure out the best plan for dire emergencies. Yes, ideally
I would have survival suits, serious life raft, and tons of signalling
electronics. In reality I'm constrained by both cost and space. Up to
now I have been coastal cruising with dinghy and PFDs like just about
everybody else around here.

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions and I would like to hear them.

Ryk

If hypothermia and drowning are the big issues, why the question? Does a
survival suit prevent these? It may delay the onset for a while, but a
liferaft and cellphone, plus a handheld VHF would seem to me to be so far
ahead of a survival suit that there is only one option worth considering.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Hi Ryk,

Ryk wrote:

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

Ryk

I'm going out on a limb here, because I don't have direct
experience with either system, however... ;-)

I've read plenty of stories of about sailboats sinking where
they tried to deploy the life raft unsuccessfully.
Obviously the people involved were rescued anyway, or the
story would not have been told. Most of these stories can
be summarized as follows: 1) crew got scared due to water
ingress that they could not identify, or could not stop. 2)
Weather was bad. 3) Crew attempted to deploy life raft, but
it blew away as it was inflating. 4) Crew did something
else and were successfully rescued. In one case, they
actually had the foresight to tether the raft to a rail
before inflating it, and it blew away after breaking their
tether!!

Because of the above, I'm somewhat skeptical of life rafts
if the weather is bad. The problem is not in the rafts
themselves, but in deploying them from a pitching, heaving,
rolling deck in 25+ knot winds.

OTOH, a survival suit and personal GPIRB together should
make rescue a near certainty in most areas, and deployment
is not an issue. Those in combination with a larger RIB
type dinghy with a tent type cover that can be snapped on
and erected in decent weather would be my choice. Obviously
deployment of the RIB in bad weather could have nearly the
same problems as deploying the life raft.

Here's an idea for the experienced offshore sailors to shoot
down (and please feel free to shoot it down!):

Tow your RIB with some emergency supplies inside, and a
custom snap on cover to keep it from filling with water.
Use survival suits and a couple of GPIRBs as your emergency
plan, and make sure that your RIB has hand loops to hold
on to should you wind up in the water. If weather permits,
plan on unsnapping the cover on the RIB, climbing aboard,
and erecting the tent cover to keep exposure to a minimum.

PS - make sure you have a knife to cut the RIB loose from
the boat as the boat sinks ;-)

Now for offshore races, and commercial situations, you won't
have a choice but to follow SOLAS dictates.

Don W.

Suits vs Rafts
 

"Don W" wrote in message
et...
Hi Ryk,

Ryk wrote:

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

Ryk

I'm going out on a limb here, because I don't have direct experience with
either system, however... ;-)

I've read plenty of stories of about sailboats sinking where they tried to
deploy the life raft unsuccessfully. Obviously the people involved were
rescued anyway, or the story would not have been told. Most of these
stories can be summarized as follows: 1) crew got scared due to water
ingress that they could not identify, or could not stop. 2) Weather was
bad. 3) Crew attempted to deploy life raft, but it blew away as it was
inflating. 4) Crew did something else and were successfully rescued. In
one case, they actually had the foresight to tether the raft to a rail
before inflating it, and it blew away after breaking their tether!!

Because of the above, I'm somewhat skeptical of life rafts if the weather
is bad. The problem is not in the rafts themselves, but in deploying them
from a pitching, heaving, rolling deck in 25+ knot winds.

OTOH, a survival suit and personal GPIRB together should make rescue a
near certainty in most areas, and deployment is not an issue. Those in
combination with a larger RIB type dinghy with a tent type cover that can
be snapped on and erected in decent weather would be my choice. Obviously
deployment of the RIB in bad weather could have nearly the same problems
as deploying the life raft.

Here's an idea for the experienced offshore sailors to shoot down (and
please feel free to shoot it down!):

Tow your RIB with some emergency supplies inside, and a custom snap on
cover to keep it from filling with water. Use survival suits and a couple
of GPIRBs as your emergency plan, and make sure that your RIB has hand
loops to hold on to should you wind up in the water. If weather permits,
plan on unsnapping the cover on the RIB, climbing aboard, and erecting the
tent cover to keep exposure to a minimum.

PS - make sure you have a knife to cut the RIB loose from the boat as the
boat sinks ;-)

Now for offshore races, and commercial situations, you won't have a choice
but to follow SOLAS dictates.

Don W.


One of the problems with the suits is the amount of time it takes to put
them on properly and for the crew to be knowledgeable and properly trained
on donning them.

Yet even when the suits are used properly there is no guarantee of survival
in frigid water, especially is there is significant delay in the rescue due
to bad weather or gale force winds.

Watch the TV series "Deadliest Catch" on the Discovery Channel. The last
episode had a boat capsizing with a captain and crew of 5. Although 4 were
able to get into their survival suits only 1 survived.

http://tinyurl.com/ls8tu

Suits vs Rafts
 

Your best bet is a survival suit and a raft. Survival really depends on
the situation, in good weather, getting into a raft is not a problem.
But in bad weather, with heavy winds, rafts often get blown away before
you have a chance to board them. At least with a survival suit, if the
raft blows away, you still have a chance if you have to enter the
water. If you get into the raft, with a survival suit, even if the raft
keeps filling with water and you have to bail the water, you're got a
good chance of survival. But without the suit, and water coming into
the raft, you've got a problem. With a survival suit, in the kinds of
water you are talking about, you shouldn't have a problem, given a
reasonable time to rescus.

I've heard reccomendations that you put plastic bags over your feet
when getting into a survival suit, just like you used to do with snow
boots, they slide right on. Put a set of bags into each survival suit
bag.

I've got a raft, but I'm looking seriously at suits. I think their the
better line of defense. I'm not relying on the raft inflating properly,
right side up, not getting hung up in the riggers, and not blowing
away. I've got the EPIRB and a hand held VHF in a waterproof plastic
type bag the manufacturer makes. Take the flare gun with you as well,
and be careful with with hand held flares, you can end up damaging the
raft in the process.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Roger Long wrote:

I've been to four lift raft inflation parties to give crews the
experience of inflating and climbing in before they were sent for
repacking.

I've only seen a liferaft inflate once.

Now that's scary!!

Don W.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Don W wrote:

I've read plenty of stories of about sailboats sinking where they tried
to deploy the life raft unsuccessfully. Obviously the people involved
were rescued anyway, or the story would not have been told. Most of
these stories can be summarized as follows: 1) crew got scared due to
water ingress that they could not identify, or could not stop. 2)
Weather was bad. 3) Crew attempted to deploy life raft, but it blew
away as it was inflating. 4) Crew did something else and were
successfully rescued. In one case, they actually had the foresight to
tether the raft to a rail before inflating it, and it blew away after
breaking their tether!!


OTOH, a survival suit and personal GPIRB together should make rescue a
near certainty in most areas, and deployment is not an issue. Those in
combination with a larger RIB type dinghy with a tent type cover that
can be snapped on and erected in decent weather would be my choice.
Obviously deployment of the RIB in bad weather could have nearly the
same problems as deploying the life raft.


Don W.

Further to your notes, most boats abandoned in favour of liferafts are
subsequently found floating and fine. It would seem to me that putting
on a survival suit and sitting around waiting for the boat to sink is a
better idea than climbing into a liferaft and watching the boat float away.

Gary

Suits vs Rafts
 

"Gary" wrote

Further to your notes, most boats abandoned in favour of liferafts
are subsequently found floating and fine.

They say, "If you are not stepping UP into your liferaft from the deck
of your sinking vessel, you are getting off too soon."

--

Roger Long

Suits vs Rafts
 

Roger Long wrote:
I've been to four lift raft inflation parties to give crews the
experience of inflating and climbing in before they were sent for
repacking.

I've only seen a liferaft inflate once.

It's the drink Roger.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Roger Long wrote:
"Gary" wrote

Further to your notes, most boats abandoned in favour of liferafts
are subsequently found floating and fine.

They say, "If you are not stepping UP into your liferaft from the deck
of your sinking vessel, you are getting off too soon."

Very true, but make sure the raft is not tied to the boat, they make useless
submarines.

Suits vs Rafts
 

My solution is that the boat I am building is unsinkable... No life
rafts.. No survival suits... Just stay with the boat...

denny

Suits vs Rafts
 

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:05:05 GMT, "Dennis Pogson"
wrote:

make sure the raft is not tied to the boat

Bad advice. The raft needs to be tied to the boat from the time just
before it is deployed/inflated until the last person is aboard. There
is a knife as part of the raft equipment to cut it loose, and the
tether attachment is designed to break before the raft can be pulled
under.

If you do not tie the raft to the boat it will either not inflate when
you throw it overboard, be blown away, or both.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Denny wrote:
My solution is that the boat I am building is unsinkable... No life
rafts.. No survival suits... Just stay with the boat...

denny

Is it fire proof?

Suits vs Rafts
 

Jeff wrote in :

Is it fire proof?


None of them are......(sigh).

Been aboard a burning steel ship. Took 8 hours to put that fire out.
"Navy, it's not just a job, it's an adventure."

Painted steel burns amazingly hot.....

Suits vs Rafts
 

Denny wrote:
My solution is that the boat I am building is unsinkable... No life
rafts.. No survival suits... Just stay with the boat...

denny

What are you going to call it?
Titanic?

Suits vs Rafts
 

On 2006-03-29 07:09:58 -0500, "Denny" said:

My solution is that the boat I am building is unsinkable... No life
rafts.. No survival suits... Just stay with the boat...

denny

Even if your boat is unsinkable, if it gets holed, the boat may fill
with enough water to make hypothermia a significant threat. A survival
suit is probably still a good idea. Arrogance or hubris is likely to
get you killed... look at the Titanic...

Suits vs Rafts
 

Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in :


Is it fire proof?



None of them are......(sigh).

Been aboard a burning steel ship. Took 8 hours to put that fire out.
"Navy, it's not just a job, it's an adventure."

Painted steel burns amazingly hot.....

but it's the paint that is actually burning yes?

Suits vs Rafts
 

Gary wrote:
Denny wrote:

My solution is that the boat I am building is unsinkable... No life
rafts.. No survival suits... Just stay with the boat...

denny

What are you going to call it?
Titanic?
that was the obvious one eh? I got badkarma vibes just thinking about
making a joke out of that one.

Suits vs Rafts
 

In a steel boat of ship few people can afford electric cable made to
Military specifications.
The fire on board is not your worst enemy it is the fume produced by burning
electrical cabling insulation.

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in :


Is it fire proof?



None of them are......(sigh).

Been aboard a burning steel ship. Took 8 hours to put that fire out.
"Navy, it's not just a job, it's an adventure."

Painted steel burns amazingly hot.....

but it's the paint that is actually burning yes?

Suits vs Rafts
 

"dog" wrote

... look at the Titanic...
I did:)

--

Roger Long

Suits vs Rafts
 

Roger Long wrote:
"dog" wrote


... look at the Titanic...

I did:)


....and made it back!

Suits vs Rafts
 

prodigal1 wrote in news:122lvub6np3v389
@news.supernews.com:

but it's the paint that is actually burning yes?



The paint and the grease and the compartment contents....Steel doesn't
even melt until we get over 3000F, I think.

Wiring fires, where the thermoplastic insulation on the cables catches
fire and trails the fires from compartment to compartment through open
collars through bulkheads was the cause of a disasterous fire in the
Eastern Med many years ago. I was involved in a massive Navy program to
inspect the ships along the East Coast of the USA for electrical hazards,
as part of a "Tiger Team" that traveled from port to port. On one old
carrier, alone, we found over 32,000 problems that required immediate
attention.

One problem I vividly remember was in a big fan room that pumped air into
the main control room for the conventional oil-turbine propulsion
system...actually 8 of them on the carrier, the USS Saratoga. I was
inspecting the fan room and noticed someone had burned a hole in the deck
with a torch to route a temperature sensor tube into this fan room from
the deck below. The hole was open so you could see the "top of
something" but couldn't make out what it was because it was huge. The
hole was a violation. What I found MOST scary was what I was looking at
was the top of the #4 main propulsion BOILER! If the boiler had exploded
or caught fire in the compartment, the superheated fumes would have been
sucked through this big hole in the deck, sucked into the ventilation fan
which pulled a vacuum on this little fan room to suck air down an
airshaft from way up under the flight deck....AND BLEW IT INTO THE MAIN
CONTROL ROOM KILLING THE GUYS WHO WOULD HAVE HAD TO SHUT OFF THE BOILER!
Man, THAT report got their attention!

Anyway, on the carrier, we ran most suppliers on the SE coast clean out
of a product called TempSeal, which is a fireproof foam product that
hardens and expands in the collars the wires go through as it sets,
sealing up these big open collars the wireways penetrate the bulkheads
through so fire cannot follow along the wire insulation from compartment
to compartment, the cause of the major fire in the ship that started this
massive program. We must have used 1000 pounds of the stuff in 3 months.

Lots of stuff burns, very hot, in a steel ship that isn't petroleum in a
fire. The paint is the big fuel, layers and layers of it that built up
over the years....just to make it pretty.

Suits vs Rafts
 

Makes me think I should consider the unsinkable Etap seriously for our
next boat.

"RL" == Roger Long writes:

RL I've been to four lift raft inflation parties to give crews the
RL experience of inflating and climbing in before they were sent for
RL repacking.

RL I've only seen a liferaft inflate once.

RL --

RL Roger Long

--
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.

Suits vs Rafts
 

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:37:49 +0200, Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen wrote:

Makes me think I should consider the unsinkable Etap seriously for our
next boat.

If nothing else, the insulation could be worth it.

Matt O.

Suits vs Rafts
 

On 29 Mar 2006 10:59:03 -0600, Dave wrote:

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 07:18:16 -0500, Wayne.B
said:

make sure the raft is not tied to the boat

Bad advice.

Talk about lacking a sense of humor....

My concern is that someone could take it literally. There is a LOT of
misinformation floating around regarding liferafts and their
deployment.

Suits vs Rafts
 

I've been to four lift raft inflation parties to give crews the
experience of inflating and climbing in before they were sent for
repacking.

Liferaft rep in this region says that's a bad idea if the raft is going
to be returned to service; cylinder inflation stresses the raft
unnecessarily. Rafts are slowly inflated with compressors at repack
centers.

That being said, I've been to 5 inflation demonstrations; one didn't
work so well. It was a design that is plastic vacuum sealed in a
"baggie" in the valise with a breakaway shoestring type closure on the
valise; some "shoestrings" didn't break and the rep had to jump in
there with a knife before the raft tore itself up.

Suits vs Rafts
 

On 1 Apr 2006 22:37:12 -0800, "Mark" wrote:

I've been to 5 inflation demonstrations; one didn't
work so well. It was a design that is plastic vacuum sealed in a
"baggie" in the valise with a breakaway shoestring type closure on the
valise; some "shoestrings" didn't break and the rep had to jump in
there with a knife before the raft tore itself up.

My raft is packed that way. Do you know what kind it was?

Suits vs Rafts
 

"Mark" wrote

Liferaft rep in this region says that's a bad idea if the raft is
going
to be returned to service; cylinder inflation stresses the raft
unnecessarily. Rafts are slowly inflated with compressors at repack
centers.

These were all rafts from hard working commercial boats. They are
only allowed so many repacks and I think these were probably headed
for the great repacking center in the sky. That probably skewed the
results. Still, they were taken off in service and it was sobering.

One interesting lesson. A big, strong guy on a warm summer day tried
to inflate one by pulling out yards of painter (50 man raft). By the
time he got it all out and pulled hard enough to inflate it, he was
too exhausted to get himself into it.

--

Roger Long