Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
If you are familiar with the Universal Atomic 4 gas engine, you know that it
originally used raw water as the cooling system. Moyer Marine, and Indiga Electronics both sell a Heat Exchanger which can be mounted near the engine, therefore eliminating the raw water as the cooling system and using antifreeze as the coolant. The Heat Exchanger units cost around $500 dollars. I got to wondering ??? Can I or is there ,,, a place where I can buy a Heat Exchanger that will work with the Atomic 4 but isn't so expensive? Do motor boats use this Heat Exchange method? It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive.. Any thoughts? |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:53:36 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote: Do motor boats use this Heat Exchange method? It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive.. Any thoughts? ================ Yes, I do. It's only half a boat buck. If that seems expensive, then you don't appreciate the realities of trying to manufacture and market specialized, low volume equipment. I doubt that anyone is getting rich selling this stuff. With all due respect, if $500 seems expensive to you, then you should reconsider getting a mid size cruising sail boat. You want to be in a position where you own the boat and not the other way around. Seriously, $500 is the tip of the iceberg. |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote
It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive.. Any thoughts? I'm always good for a thought. $500 isn't expensive. That's just about one BBU for a reasonably complex piece of gear that isn't produced in quantity. What's a BBU? Oh, I though everyone knew. That's a "Basic Boat Unit". For rough estimating of any boat project, just count up everything you need and figure each item costs $500. Total cost should then average out close to the same price. You can pump the water through the heat exchanger with the raw water pump but then you'll still need: A second pump to pump cooling water to the exhaust. Bracket fabricated to hold second pump. Belt and pulleys adapted. Heater tank Piping, hose, and clamps. Header tank. Thermostat Let's see, that's seven more BBU's. I'd like to get my raw water cooled boat set up so I can use it conveniently in freezing weather. Being from the commercial world, I'm getting a proposal on a keel cooler. This is heresy for a sail boat but the fact of the matter is that the drag is pretty minimal. The boundary layer is so thick in the hind quarters that I'll never notice the effect of dragging this small radiator like device through the water. With a heat exchanger, you still have seawater in the boat that can freeze and bust things, (like the heat exchanger) so you still have to worry about draining or filling the system raw water side with antifreeze. With the keel cooler, instead of bringing the salt cooling water in, you just pump the antifreeze and fresh water mix outside and let the ocean cool it. You still have to worry about draining the muffler but, if you should forget and crack a Vernalift, it's not as big a hit to the pocketbook as an engine block or heat exchanger. The ideal thing is to convert to dry exhaust but then you need a muffler and it's a lot of hot insulated pipe to arrange for in most sailboats. Water backing up into the hot exhaust pipe is also likely to crack it. That's why most commercial boats that work all year have stacks and keel coolers. No salt water in the boat and no salt water pumps. -- Roger Long |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine
coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car? Then, you could have a warm boat. This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core? ========= "Roger Long" wrote in message ... "Thomas Wentworth" wrote It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive.. Any thoughts? I'm always good for a thought. $500 isn't expensive. That's just about one BBU for a reasonably complex piece of gear that isn't produced in quantity. What's a BBU? Oh, I though everyone knew. That's a "Basic Boat Unit". For rough estimating of any boat project, just count up everything you need and figure each item costs $500. Total cost should then average out close to the same price. You can pump the water through the heat exchanger with the raw water pump but then you'll still need: A second pump to pump cooling water to the exhaust. Bracket fabricated to hold second pump. Belt and pulleys adapted. Heater tank Piping, hose, and clamps. Header tank. Thermostat Let's see, that's seven more BBU's. I'd like to get my raw water cooled boat set up so I can use it conveniently in freezing weather. Being from the commercial world, I'm getting a proposal on a keel cooler. This is heresy for a sail boat but the fact of the matter is that the drag is pretty minimal. The boundary layer is so thick in the hind quarters that I'll never notice the effect of dragging this small radiator like device through the water. With a heat exchanger, you still have seawater in the boat that can freeze and bust things, (like the heat exchanger) so you still have to worry about draining or filling the system raw water side with antifreeze. With the keel cooler, instead of bringing the salt cooling water in, you just pump the antifreeze and fresh water mix outside and let the ocean cool it. You still have to worry about draining the muffler but, if you should forget and crack a Vernalift, it's not as big a hit to the pocketbook as an engine block or heat exchanger. The ideal thing is to convert to dry exhaust but then you need a muffler and it's a lot of hot insulated pipe to arrange for in most sailboats. Water backing up into the hot exhaust pipe is also likely to crack it. That's why most commercial boats that work all year have stacks and keel coolers. No salt water in the boat and no salt water pumps. -- Roger Long |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
Not with 20 HP. That little engine takes all day to heat up the two
gallon galley hot water tank which the cooling water runs through before going into the exhaust. One reason I want a keel cooler is that I can use the thermostat to boost the operating temperature of the engine. The engine will run better and I'll have more hot water. What I do is plug in the shore power and heat up the hot water just before leaving. AC brings it up to temp in about 5 minutes. The engine then keeps it there if I'm doing some motoring. And, yeah, I'm pretty hard co) -- Roger Long "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:DmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04... Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car? Then, you could have a warm boat. This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core? ========= "Roger Long" wrote in message ... "Thomas Wentworth" wrote It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive.. Any thoughts? I'm always good for a thought. $500 isn't expensive. That's just about one BBU for a reasonably complex piece of gear that isn't produced in quantity. What's a BBU? Oh, I though everyone knew. That's a "Basic Boat Unit". For rough estimating of any boat project, just count up everything you need and figure each item costs $500. Total cost should then average out close to the same price. You can pump the water through the heat exchanger with the raw water pump but then you'll still need: A second pump to pump cooling water to the exhaust. Bracket fabricated to hold second pump. Belt and pulleys adapted. Heater tank Piping, hose, and clamps. Header tank. Thermostat Let's see, that's seven more BBU's. I'd like to get my raw water cooled boat set up so I can use it conveniently in freezing weather. Being from the commercial world, I'm getting a proposal on a keel cooler. This is heresy for a sail boat but the fact of the matter is that the drag is pretty minimal. The boundary layer is so thick in the hind quarters that I'll never notice the effect of dragging this small radiator like device through the water. With a heat exchanger, you still have seawater in the boat that can freeze and bust things, (like the heat exchanger) so you still have to worry about draining or filling the system raw water side with antifreeze. With the keel cooler, instead of bringing the salt cooling water in, you just pump the antifreeze and fresh water mix outside and let the ocean cool it. You still have to worry about draining the muffler but, if you should forget and crack a Vernalift, it's not as big a hit to the pocketbook as an engine block or heat exchanger. The ideal thing is to convert to dry exhaust but then you need a muffler and it's a lot of hot insulated pipe to arrange for in most sailboats. Water backing up into the hot exhaust pipe is also likely to crack it. That's why most commercial boats that work all year have stacks and keel coolers. No salt water in the boat and no salt water pumps. -- Roger Long |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
Roger Long wrote: Not with 20 HP. That little engine takes all day to heat up the two gallon galley hot water tank which the cooling water runs through before going into the exhaust. 2 gallon water heater? What unit is that? I've pulled my rusty old Raritan 6 gal out, and would like a much smaller unit. Jack |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
2 gallons was a wild guess but I looked it up and it's either a 4 or 6
Atlantic Marine Products Corp. I would guess 4 gallons because it isn't very big. I don't know it they still make them. Phone number in Richmond VA was 804-264-1169 in 1997. -- Roger Long wrote in message ups.com... Roger Long wrote: Not with 20 HP. That little engine takes all day to heat up the two gallon galley hot water tank which the cooling water runs through before going into the exhaust. 2 gallon water heater? What unit is that? I've pulled my rusty old Raritan 6 gal out, and would like a much smaller unit. Jack |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
Thanks, Roger, I'll check them out.
Jack |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:DmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04... Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car? Then, you could have a warm boat. This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core? I have a friend with this exact setup in a Viking 33 with a fresh water cooled Atomic 4. No water heater though. He gets heat quickly and it is effective for keeping the boat warm while the engine is running. -- Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton at eastlink dot ca |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:32:45 GMT, "Ken Heaton"
wrote: "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:DmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04... Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car? Then, you could have a warm boat. This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core? I have a friend with this exact setup in a Viking 33 with a fresh water cooled Atomic 4. No water heater though. He gets heat quickly and it is effective for keeping the boat warm while the engine is running. As I have a Viking 33 with an Atomic 4, I'd be interested in how this is set up in a way that doesn't counteract the blower venting the engine compartment. I don't have chronic crankcase fumes as it's a freshly rebuilt engine, but if I'm on a downwind motorsail, I do smell it a bit in the cabin. In other words, how do you leach off the heat without the fumes? R. |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
This is a setup similar to a automotive heater. A very small water coil
(looks like a little car radiator) is in a cabinet with a fan. It draws air from the cabin, blows it through the water coil and back out into the cabin area. No air is drawn from the engine area. The water coil is in the coolant line that takes the hot water from the engine to the heat exchanger so it get the heat out of the water before the heat exchanger gets rid of it. Here is an example: http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/shop5...p?catalogid=29 -- Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton at eastlink dot ca "rhys" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:32:45 GMT, "Ken Heaton" wrote: "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:DmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04... Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car? Then, you could have a warm boat. This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core? I have a friend with this exact setup in a Viking 33 with a fresh water cooled Atomic 4. No water heater though. He gets heat quickly and it is effective for keeping the boat warm while the engine is running. As I have a Viking 33 with an Atomic 4, I'd be interested in how this is set up in a way that doesn't counteract the blower venting the engine compartment. I don't have chronic crankcase fumes as it's a freshly rebuilt engine, but if I'm on a downwind motorsail, I do smell it a bit in the cabin. In other words, how do you leach off the heat without the fumes? R. |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
"Ken Heaton" wrote in
news:HYvTf.3141$J43.2422@edtnps90: This is a setup similar to a automotive heater. A very small water coil (looks like a little car radiator) is in a cabinet with a fan. It draws air from the cabin, blows it through the water coil and back out into the cabin area. No air is drawn from the engine area. The water coil is in the coolant line that takes the hot water from the engine to the heat exchanger so it get the heat out of the water before the heat exchanger gets rid of it. http://www.rustrepair.com/app2/onlinecat.htm?r=ms&p=wi I've got heater C in the stepvan shop in the back. 20,000 Btu is a LOT of recovered waste heat. I can make it 90F in short order when it's 25F outside. Take your pick. All you need is standard auto heater hose and a shutoff valve (also available from Mill Supply on this website) to control it and secure it in the off season. Of course, I wouldn't recommend it for raw water cooled engines. Seawater would eat it in short order.... |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:00:31 -0500, Larry wrote:
"Ken Heaton" wrote in news:HYvTf.3141$J43.2422@edtnps90: This is a setup similar to a automotive heater. A very small water coil (looks like a little car radiator) is in a cabinet with a fan. It draws air from the cabin, blows it through the water coil and back out into the cabin area. No air is drawn from the engine area. The water coil is in the coolant line that takes the hot water from the engine to the heat exchanger so it get the heat out of the water before the heat exchanger gets rid of it. Cool. I bet I could rig up something like that via my mixing elbow or directly off the side of the A4. I don't have a heat exchange, though, which brings me to Larry's point. http://www.rustrepair.com/app2/onlinecat.htm?r=ms&p=wi I've got heater C in the stepvan shop in the back. 20,000 Btu is a LOT of recovered waste heat. I can make it 90F in short order when it's 25F outside. Take your pick. All you need is standard auto heater hose and a shutoff valve (also available from Mill Supply on this website) to control it and secure it in the off season. Of course, I wouldn't recommend it for raw water cooled engines. Seawater would eat it in short order.... I'm in fresh water, Larry, and use raw water with a 180 F Holley thermostat in the usual spot on the head of the A4. I usually top out at 175 F when at cruising speed, which means a fair bit of hot water is going out the stern. I will mull on this to figure out if there's a way to do this with as few restrictions as possible. Your stepvan unit is cruder, but cheaper, and I can think of a few places it would fit. I can also think of using ganged muffin fans and copper tubing, but again, this might be a custom job. Most people want A/C, but in Lake Ontario, late April-June and late September to haulout in late October, it's hard to keep the cabin warm when underway. R. |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
rhys wrote in news:d42u125tg01hqe3uqr8ng49hludjkbgnqd@
4ax.com: I'm in fresh water, Larry, and use raw water with a 180 F Holley thermostat in the usual spot on the head of the A4. I usually top out at 175 F when at cruising speed, which means a fair bit of hot water is going out the stern. I will mull on this to figure out if there's a way to do this with as few restrictions as possible. Your stepvan unit is cruder, but cheaper, and I can think of a few places it would fit. I can also think of using ganged muffin fans and copper tubing, but again, this might be a custom job. Most people want A/C, but in Lake Ontario, late April-June and late September to haulout in late October, it's hard to keep the cabin warm when underway. R. Screw it to the cabin floor right up against the bulkhead under the table. Air goes in the top of it, through the fan, down through the radiator then comes out of any or all of the 3 doors that open and close to control where the heat is blown along the cold, cold deck. Wouldn't that be nice on a cold morning, warm air blowing up under the breakfast table from the toasty-warm decking your bare feet are enjoying?...(c; If you get one, do what I did, and get the fan speed rheostat from the heater parts webpage. This allows you to run the fan at whatever speed you desire, which also controls Btu output of course, to just the right level. Too warm? No problem....simply turn the fan speed down. After warming the initially-cold cabin, you can turn the fan way down until you can barely hear it run. That's how I run mine...(c; Run wide open, this heater will absorb so much heat from the cooling system of a 6.2L GM diesel V-8 riding around the city...the thermostat doesn't open! I can actually make the temperature guage DROP unless the engine is running over 25 mph! |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:41:03 -0500, Larry wrote:
Run wide open, this heater will absorb so much heat from the cooling system of a 6.2L GM diesel V-8 riding around the city...the thermostat doesn't open! I can actually make the temperature guage DROP unless the engine is running over 25 mph! Do you think I can build something a little less large with a car heater core and a large muffin fan? My only concern would be to keep the hose runs managable, meaning I would probably put the heater core in the galley or in the nav station, blowing out. Of course, the idea would be (usually) that the boat is semi-warm from shore-power and ceramic heater cubes, but that warmth can be maintained while we are underway for crew not actually on deck during those periods when we are motorsailing. I'm going for the KISS element here, and am simply blueskying. I know a guy who uses an immersion element plumbed into the cooling system that heats up five gallons of water in a pop syrup cylinder, providing his head and galley with hot pressure water. Me, I don't need to go quite THAT far, but the warmth from the engine would help to keep the boat dry(er) until the sun starts to get over the deck. R. |
Atomic 4 Gas Engine Cooling Question ,,,
The heater I've seen in the Viking 33 is in the base of a galley cabinet,
probably to keep hose runs short. It blows out. I dont remember where the air intake is. It works fine from there. -- Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton at eastlink dot ca "rhys" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:41:03 -0500, Larry wrote: Run wide open, this heater will absorb so much heat from the cooling system of a 6.2L GM diesel V-8 riding around the city...the thermostat doesn't open! I can actually make the temperature guage DROP unless the engine is running over 25 mph! Do you think I can build something a little less large with a car heater core and a large muffin fan? My only concern would be to keep the hose runs managable, meaning I would probably put the heater core in the galley or in the nav station, blowing out. Of course, the idea would be (usually) that the boat is semi-warm from shore-power and ceramic heater cubes, but that warmth can be maintained while we are underway for crew not actually on deck during those periods when we are motorsailing. I'm going for the KISS element here, and am simply blueskying. I know a guy who uses an immersion element plumbed into the cooling system that heats up five gallons of water in a pop syrup cylinder, providing his head and galley with hot pressure water. Me, I don't need to go quite THAT far, but the warmth from the engine would help to keep the boat dry(er) until the sun starts to get over the deck. R. |
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