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Boat Broker Question ...
Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just
me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. What are your thoughts. Jasper I put them in the same league as car salesmen and real estate brokers. I would prefer to buy without using them but sometimes you have to. I did buy my last house, car and boat in private sales. I didn't feel I needed a broker for any of them this time. Besides, the best boats never get to a broker. Someone who knows the boat buys it. Gaz |
Boat Broker Question ...
Hey, Larry, that was pretty good. Interesting reading.
The surveyor; I was just reading a survey and the surveryor basically says "this is what I found with the vessel, might be a bunch of other stuff wrong but I didn't find that stuff, so have a nice day and good luck". The broker; "I know nothing .. I am a boat broker who does nothing and knows nothing and really shouldn't exist on the planet". The buyer; "holy ****, there is water coming into the boat ... oh my god, we are sinking ,,, the keel has fallen off ... the mast just fell into the sea ... the cabin roof is collapsing .. the engine is on fire .... the radio doesn't work .... " Later: "Family lost off coast in sailboat" =================================== One thing this tells you ... when it is offer time. Be careful. All the risk is on the buyer. So, the buyer should take this into consideration when making an offer. ================================================== =================== "Larry" wrote in message ... "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in news:M38Jf.8097$lG.4345@trndny01: I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. What are your thoughts. If a seller, including car dealers/boat brokers/vacuum cleaner salesmen, makes any kind of statement as to the condition of or use of a product, including USED product, they create what the law says is an "Implied Warranty" that the product will do what they say it will. There are two, the "Implied Warranty of Merchantability" and the "Implied Warranty of Suitability for a Particular Purpose". The first warranty says the boat is in fine condition and is ready to sell to you. If he opens his mouth and says it's ready-for-sea, he's opened himself up to be sued under the law if it isn't. The second warranty is if he tells you this is the perfect boat for your family of 6 for vacations. He has created an implied warranty of suitability for a particular purpose, your vacation. If he keeps his mouth shut and tells you nothing, and because it has no written warranty, the implied warranties don't exist and it's YOUR fault you bought the POS boat with the leaky fittings that sank at the slip. If you get a survey, it's the surveyor's fault, not the broker's.... It's why they are so closed mouth. Wouldn't you keep your mouth shut, too? http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht..._15_10_50.html They'd all rather you didn't know anything about either of these websites...(c; |
Boat Broker Question ...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
Mys Terry,,, you are starting to annoy me.
==================================== "Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:40:28 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. What are your thoughts. Jasper Stop expecting others to do your homework. A broker's job is to bring a buyer and a seller together. They are not baby sitters or therapists. It's your job to decide if a boat is what you want. Do the first survey yourself. If you get that far and it still looks good, then hire a pro for a second survey. You don't have a survey done on every boat that you consider - just the one you want to make an offer on. It's silly to say that boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. That comes mostly from a misguided idea of the broker's function. The reality is that the broker HAS to rely on whatever the seller tells them about the boat, whether it is accurate or not. What else can they do? They don't own the boat. They are just there to market it, and try to attract potential buyers. That is all. Get real. Mys Terry |
Boat Broker Question ...
Larry: Are you a lawyer or broker?
I'm a commercial realtor and former boat broker. This initial post is based on some common misconceptions and incorrect assumptions. Larry's post was spot on. It's behavior expressing a healthy fear of litigation. Most of said litigation is due to ill-informed buyers that have the wrong expectations of brokers and then sue because they bought said "POS." The sellers / buyers need to better understand the representation brokers offer. We are paid for our contacts, our ability to find/warehouse/catalog opportunities, our product knowledge and then our ability to negotiate the best deal for whomever we represent. If Billy Boater has me as a buyer's agent working for him, I negotiate the best possible deal or steer him to a better one. If I represent the owner, he gets the best price for his possession from Billy Boater's wallet. I do it better than Billy. Brokers are far from drains on the sales cycle. They match buyers, sellers, their products and prices in a way that the average citizen alone could never duplicate. There are lots of exceptions and I'll bet I hear from them soon. :-) .. "Larry" wrote in message ... "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in news:M38Jf.8097$lG.4345@trndny01: I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. What are your thoughts. If a seller, including car dealers/boat brokers/vacuum cleaner salesmen, makes any kind of statement as to the condition of or use of a product, including USED product, they create what the law says is an "Implied Warranty" that the product will do what they say it will. There are two, the "Implied Warranty of Merchantability" and the "Implied Warranty of Suitability for a Particular Purpose". The first warranty says the boat is in fine condition and is ready to sell to you. If he opens his mouth and says it's ready-for-sea, he's opened himself up to be sued under the law if it isn't. The second warranty is if he tells you this is the perfect boat for your family of 6 for vacations. He has created an implied warranty of suitability for a particular purpose, your vacation. If he keeps his mouth shut and tells you nothing, and because it has no written warranty, the implied warranties don't exist and it's YOUR fault you bought the POS boat with the leaky fittings that sank at the slip. If you get a survey, it's the surveyor's fault, not the broker's.... It's why they are so closed mouth. Wouldn't you keep your mouth shut, too? http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht..._15_10_50.html They'd all rather you didn't know anything about either of these websites...(c; |
Boat Broker Question ...
I didn't mean honest in the sense that they would represent your best
interest. I meant honest in the sense that they probably will avoid doing anything that would land them in jail. Or, to put it another way, I would buy another car from the last three dealers we have bought from, and have recommended them to friends. You, on the other hand, seem startled by the thought that boat brokers should be viewed any different from car salesmen. What planet are you on? Thomas Wentworth wrote: Car salesmen are honest? Did you really write that? What planet are you living on? ================ "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
I refer you to my posting as a reply to Mys Terry..
Positive feedback. It builds up my self esteem. PS.. car salesman, boat brokers... both lying thieves. ============================================== "Jeff" wrote in message ... I didn't mean honest in the sense that they would represent your best interest. I meant honest in the sense that they probably will avoid doing anything that would land them in jail. Or, to put it another way, I would buy another car from the last three dealers we have bought from, and have recommended them to friends. You, on the other hand, seem startled by the thought that boat brokers should be viewed any different from car salesmen. What planet are you on? Thomas Wentworth wrote: Car salesmen are honest? Did you really write that? What planet are you living on? ================ "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars.
and can the survey even be relied on. in the end i think the best thing is for whoever is buying the boat to know what they are buying. someone cruising, in my opinion, can't be like someone who buys a car, or an rv, or even a house. those things you can hire some folks to come in and take a look at it for you, a mechanic, someone looking for termites, an appraiser, etc, and you act on whatever they say. but a sailboat, that's your life on the line ... it's not just inconvenient to have the boat sink out from under you, so you have to take more responsibility as a buyer to watch out for your own person. so my opinion, and it's just that, is that it's ok to hear what the broker and owner say, and it's even better to bring in a diesel mechanic to look at the engine, and a surveyor to do a survey, etc, but that in the end you have to be out there ripping the floor up to look at the hull yourself, checking the zincs, finding out if the electrical is a mess or not, looking in the bilge (if the boat isn't on the dirt), climbing up the mast to check the rigging for hints about it's age, etc, etc, because in the end a lot of these things are things you'll be trusting your life to. and since it's your life, it isn't that great of an idea to trust it to someone else no matter how much they know. even in cars, you sort of trust your life to a mechanic when he works on your brakes, but not nearly so much is at stake as there is with your hull, or your rigging. your brakes on a car usually fail slowly, but even if they failed suddenly you'd be in a crash at worst, maybe lose your life, but most likely just smash up the car. most likely you'd just get out, walk around, check to see that the other driver was ok, you'd wait for fire and rescue, sue your mechanic, etc haha. but if your boat has water coming in through a misplaced through-hull, or water comes in through the engine or something, you're suddenly at the mercy of a giant ocean, and there's really nobody there to help you ... if your radio/electrical failed not even a way to tell them you need help (short of an EPIRB). sailors i think have to treat their boats as more than just transportation or a house, more than a vehicle, and have to know a lot more about it. the connection between a sailor and his/her boat i believe is a much more personal one, more intimate, and the survival of both depends greatly on the essential quality of each. the boat has to be strong, move well, stand up to a gale, and take care of her captain, etc ... and the sailor has to be smart, resourceful, know the boat well, and be industrious in giving the boat what she needs. it's like a team effort, a much more personal relationship than simple ownership, or car & driver type of relationship. her sails are your sails, her engine your engine, her hull your way of keeping dry, etc, she's like a set of clothing, or armor, or wings that you strap on your back, giving you capabilities you don't possess without her. and there has to be a level of trust there, confidence, that comes through really getting to know her and how she acts, knowing her little tantrums and her flaws, and knowing her strengths so you can rely on her, etc. i think trusting a boat broker to pick out a boat isn't anything at all like trusting a car dealer to find you a car ... it's a lot more like trusting a matchmaker to find you a wife lol. and yeah ... they are way too uncaring and sleazy to trust to find you a wife.. ahem, i mean, boat lol. |
Boat Broker Question ...
In article M38Jf.8097$lG.4345@trndny01,
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. What are your thoughts. Jasper Like everything else in life, it depends on the person. I found a broker who found the boat I wanted, guided me through acquisition process, helped me resolve problems after the boat was delivered a good 330 miles from his shop, came sailing up here to help me out and showed me tons about my boat. Anyone who has dealt with Todd Williams of McMichaels in Mamaroneck, NY knows that there are brokers who do not fit your definition. Keep on looking. harlan -- To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"? |
Boat Broker Question ...
Thomas (or is it Jasper as I see in your first post that started this
thread), Buying even a modest cruising boat and turning it into a safe, reliable, and going concern is a complex and expensive process. Certain personality traits have a lot of bearing on the outcome because doing it successfully covers a wide range of sills. Many of them are not technical. Dealing with the broker (who works only for the seller and has a legal duty to represent only the seller's interests), surveyors, boatyards, etc., productively involves interpersonal skills and business sense that are often at odds with the impulses that make people want to get far out in a small craft away from society. There is a lot that can go wrong so patience and reasonableness are vital. I'm always very interested in the human factors. What small insight I've gained from your posts makes me absolutely fascinated to see if you ever actually get a boat and start cruising in it. I hope you will continue to keep us informed of your progress and post some pictures somewhere when you close the sale. -- Roger Long |
Boat Broker Question ...
I can't say for sure about all, but I can say for sure that the ones I
encountered, with a few exceptions, in my search, were all honest, caring folks. Now, that may be a product of my doing nearly all of the work beforehand, and delivering a spreadsheet of the boats, geographically oriented, that I wanted to see, to each broker. However, most also wanted to know what my objectives and limitations/parameters/specifications were, and did their best to present boats they thought met my needs. I can say categorically (there may well be others, of course) that the best and most professional broker I met was Frank Gary, of Bristol Yacht Sales in Annapolis. I met him as a result of working with the single *worst* example of a broker I encountered, who dumped me on Friday night, to fend for myself on the weekend, in a hotel, rather than out looking at boats as he'd said he would, because they were on the other side of the river. He's also the one who said, "If you don't buy that boat, not only are you stupid but I have no further use for you!" about a boat which was under contract (his) but not closing yet due to some potential problems (offer-counter, still active). So, in the same market, I found the two extremes. However, he's the exception. Nearly any other broker I worked with was satisfactory; many were exemplary. Do an interview before choosing a broker. Use one who will be your buyer's agent rather than the listing broker, as that one won't have a vested interest in pushing one boat over another... And, as others have said, do your own homework. Use the broker as a convenience tool to get you on as many boats as possible... L8R Skip, working on the boat Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Boat Broker Question ...
Roger,,, before I jump at the first boat, I will look at as many boats as
possible. Remember, it is winter up here in the great white north. Looking at boats that are covered with shrink wrap is not so easy. Also, while I know what I want there are numerous versions of that style boat. And one more thing ... it is fun looking at boats. I have learned so much in just the short time I have lurked here. The internet is a University of Marine Education. Thanks to all the posters, who post about just about everything and anything, I am a much more informed buyer. A smart buyer is not an impulsive buyer. ps.. have you been to the Titanic memorial in New York City. I stumbled upon it one day. I believe it is on the east side of Manhattan. [[[[ "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Thomas (or is it Jasper as I see in your first post that started this thread), Buying even a modest cruising boat and turning it into a safe, reliable, and going concern is a complex and expensive process. Certain personality traits have a lot of bearing on the outcome because doing it successfully covers a wide range of sills. Many of them are not technical. Dealing with the broker (who works only for the seller and has a legal duty to represent only the seller's interests), surveyors, boatyards, etc., productively involves interpersonal skills and business sense that are often at odds with the impulses that make people want to get far out in a small craft away from society. There is a lot that can go wrong so patience and reasonableness are vital. I'm always very interested in the human factors. What small insight I've gained from your posts makes me absolutely fascinated to see if you ever actually get a boat and start cruising in it. I hope you will continue to keep us informed of your progress and post some pictures somewhere when you close the sale. -- Roger Long |
Boat Broker Question ...
Jasper
You have to understand that boat brokers run into a lot of "tire kickers" and "dreamers". They don't want to waste their time on such people. If, or when, they realize that your "for real", then they start to get down to serious work. People that are seriously in the market for a boat tend to already have it down to a few makes and models, age and price range. At that point a broker knows you've been looking, your not just killing time. He will then start to help you with your search. You would be surprised at how many times they have a survey on hand, but use what they have as a referance only, hire your own surveyor if your serious about a boat you have been shown. Brokers make their money by selling boats, yes, the more it sells for the more they make. But I've seen them push sellers hard to make a sale, no sale, no money. By the way, have you looked at "www.yachtworld.com"? It's a great place to look at lots of boats without leaving home, and you can get a good idea about prices as well. Good Luck! John |
Boat Broker Question ...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Roger,,, before I jump at the first boat, I will look at as many boats as possible. Remember, it is winter up here in the great white north. Looking at boats that are covered with shrink wrap is not so easy. Also, while I know what I want there are numerous versions of that style boat. And one more thing ... it is fun looking at boats. I have learned so much in just the short time I have lurked here. The internet is a University of Marine Education. Thanks to all the posters, who post about just about everything and anything, I am a much more informed buyer. A smart buyer is not an impulsive buyer. ps.. have you been to the Titanic memorial in New York City. I stumbled upon it one day. I believe it is on the east side of Manhattan. Better yet.... has Roger been to *all* the Titanic sites, displays gravesites etc. in Halifax? http://titanic.gov.ns.ca/hfxdisplays.html |
Boat Broker Question ...
"Don White" wrote Better yet....
has Roger been to *all* the Titanic sites, displays gravesites etc. in Halifax? http://titanic.gov.ns.ca/hfxdisplays.html No. I'm not one of the "Titaniacs". I was hired to see what a professional taking a fresh look without the preconceptions and positions of many who have studied the wreck for years would make of the expedition's findings. I've been to bow, stern, and farther south to the limits of the debris field than any but a handful of people. I haven't been to any other Titanic sites. -- Roger Long |
Boat Broker Question ...
This was the best site I found when I was looking for a boat:
http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/advanced_search.jsp Here's how the broker thing is supposed to work: The broker, representing the seller tells you whatever they think is in their best interests for you to know. If the keel is missing, it isn't in their interests to take time for you to show up and discover that. OTOH they are under no obligation to tell you that there is core rot. You make an offer based on the information provided and, if possible, your initial look yourself. You hire a surveyor. If you are smart, you'll pay to have one travel from outside the area. The local guys get referrals and work by making sales happen. Be there for the survey yourself. You'll learn a lot more than from a report. The cost of fixing anything not previously disclosed, clearly visible in the pictures, or on your initial inspection is then deducted from your offer. Each party then decides if they want to proceed. If not, you get your deposit back. If the keel was missing in the photos or on your first inspection, that would not be deducted from the offer because you should have factored it in at the time you made it. If the surveyor finds core rot that was not disclosed, that would be deducted because it could only be discovered by the survey. It is true that surveyors are just normal people and not psychics so there will inevitably be lots wrong discovered after you own the boat. That's just life. Buy in the Great Lakes (or other fresh water) if you possibly can. Not only is there and incredible difference all the way through a boat that has not been heavily exposed to salt there are different broker practices, at least in the Detroit area. Our boat came with a $2000 escrow to cover anything that could not be discovered by survey. Any system thing that didn't work. Because we got such a low price to begin with, I didn't hold their feet to the fire for the autopilot and stereo that I didn't really care about but they ended up spending nearly the whole amount on fuel system problems that we would have been stuck with under typical arrangements here on the east coast .. The fresh water factor even shows up in the woodwork. Salt gets everywhere and the residue holds moisture. I've seen five year old boats that were not as fresh and clean in out of the way corners as our 1980. -- Roger Long |
Boat Broker Question ...
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:04:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: The fresh water factor even shows up in the woodwork. Salt gets everywhere and the residue holds moisture. I've seen five year old boats that were not as fresh and clean in out of the way corners as our 1980. This is very true. My '73 sloop still has, amazingly, a "new fibreglass smell" and even look in parts of the boat far from the "action", such as the forepeak and in the second of two quarterberth storage bins going down to the hull. That's why even though I know I'll find more "ocean cruisers" in other markets, there's enough of the aforementioned dreamers and builders on the Great Lakes who never quite made it to provide a small but realistic market for passagemaker-level boats. I recently looked at a steel boat started here in '88 and finished in '93 and that has never seen salt. The corrosion on all parts of the hull I could see (and I saw at least 50% that wasn't tank tops) was minimal and was of the type that could be dealt with via a piece of 60 grit and a babyjar of Tremclad and a one-inch-wide paintbrush. I saw a beautifully made 1988 French steel boat that had been a liveaboard in Mexico in 2004 that was a higher-performance design than the above boat, but its frames and stringers were a mess. I would have had to dissemble the interior and sandblast the lot and recoat and refoam....no thanks. A compromise is finding a finished hull of a proven design with a missing or basic interior. Sometimes a home builder of reasonable skill will make a great boat with top-end tankage, engine and rigging, but the interior looks like a treehouse with park benches. Such a boat will come heavily discounted, and it's no hardship to chainsaw out the bits you don't want and pay a carpenter to rebuild the interior to one's own specs. As I don't like from a safety and stowage point of view most "ocean-capable" boats today, this may be the way I go. Better the money I save getting a decent hull/deck/systems with a barbaric interior goes to a custom cabin build than buying an "acres of teak" boat that is nice to look at but hard to live in. Skip G. can probably back me up here, as a lot of his refit efforts have gone into altering a stock interior to suit his needs and requirements. It is hard to find a broker interested in helping you source a "well-built wreck" at any price. They are used to selling conventional boats to conventional customers, hence the large number of Hunters, Catalinas and Beneteaus in the world. Not that there's anything wrong with that. G R. |
Boat Broker Question ...
"Danny" wrote in news:11va7iuktie0893
@corp.supernews.com: Larry: Are you a lawyer or broker? Screwed buyer. I successfully returned a 1997 Yamaha GP1200 PWC that was a design mistake they told me they'd never take back. They were wrong... (c; They called it "buyer's remorse". I hired a lawyer....and learned a LOT in the process.... Every CONSUMER needs to read the FTC manual for the Businesspersons... http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm and hold their sorry asses to the fire it produces. You don't need to lean on some local lemon law that's just for cars. Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act (15USC50 section 2300) is quite specific and, even though dealer/manufacturer amnesia is a problem, easily to understand. I faxed the law and the manual to MY dealer at midnight just to make sure HE had a copy...(c; My favorite passage is 2304(a)(4): "(4) if the product (or a component part thereof) contains a defect or malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product, such warrantor must permit the CONSUMER to elect either a refund for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as the case may be). The Commission may by rule specify for purposes of this paragraph, what constitutes a reasonable number of attempts to remedy particular kinds of defects or malfunctions under different circumstances. If the warrantor replaces a component part of a consumer product, such replacement shall include installing the part in the product without charge." I've capslocked the most important word in the whole law....CONSUMER ....It doesn't say DEALER...or MANUFACTURER...or SERVICE MANAGER...or TELEPHONE TAG EXPERT. It's up to the CONSUMER...US NOT "THEM"...to say it's fixed or not and whether WE, not them, are to get a NEW ONE or a full REFUND, which is what I chose. Notice it doesn't say TRADE UP OUR CRAPWARE TO GET MORE OUT OF YOU or GET A DISCOUNT COUPON? It says NEW UNIT or REFUND! Tested over and over in court, the judges have settled on 30 days or 3 attempts to fix it....NOT ALL SUMMER. It also DOESN'T say they can just ignore you because they don't like you coming around the dealership bitching about it being crap. (It doesn't say how far you need to be from the dealer, but the judges have settled that on 2.5 miles. Luckily, I was a mile from mine...(c;) It's why Wally World cheerfully refunds your money when the zipper falls out of the pants or the toaster stops toasting....Wally is not your friend. Wally is trying to put the BEST face on following the LAW! It seems to work. The armored car hauls off Wally's money SIX times a day where I live! It takes two guards to carry all the bags of it. Why can't boat companies learn from Wally?? Ever seen an armored car at a boat dealer? broker? No.... |
Boat Broker Question ...
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:29:27 GMT, in message
"Roger Long" wrote: I'm always very interested in the human factors. What small insight I've gained from your posts makes me absolutely fascinated to see if you ever actually get a boat and start cruising in it. I hope you will continue to keep us informed of your progress and post some pictures somewhere when you close the sale. I too am interested to see where others get into personal difficulties in buying boats. My own experience is limited (three cruising boats, one private, one brokered, one via eBay) but entirely positive. The only time I felt a little screwed over was a private sale that fell through because, after we agreed on a price, the owner wouldn't commit to closing until he made a deal on his next boat. I'm not very good at the bargaining process face to face, so I would rather work through a broker for comfort, but a private deal can work out better financially -- certainly did for my current boat. Ryk |
Boat Broker Question ...
I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even
though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
MMC wrote:
I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC Maybe that broker has a hard time selling boats and was desperate for some kind of commission. This is a case where you can say 'thank God for lawyers! |
Boat Broker Question ...
MMC,,, in my humble opinion, boat brokers are totally worthless. They get
in the way. For example. A broker will tell you that the owner is anxious to sell, so off you go on a 400 miles trip to see a boat. When you get to the boat, you realize the boat has problems. Either the engine is bad, rigging needs replacing, sails are no good, whatever. Your not upset because of the "anxious" in the broker's presentation. The next thing you do, check on costs of engine repair, price out sails, etc. Finally, you tell the broker all that you have figured out and tell him/her what you will offer. This is when the broker tells you "I spoke to the owner last week and he won't budge on the asking price". Then why the F,,, did you just drive 400 miles, what about the "anxious" part of the presentation? All bull-****. Total bull-****. This has happened to me. And it has happened on more than one occasion. It has happened with multiple brokers. After the third time, fireworks! I almost slugged the guy. I literally had to be held back. So, no more brokers. If a boat owner can't sell his/her own boat, I don't want anything to do with the boat. Period. This is my opinion. And my experience. Others may feel differently. TW "MMC" wrote in message ... I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
I do not feel differently.
Same thing happened to me. Another classic is the offer scenario. The following technique works wells. A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult the seller/broker. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer is too low and make you feel a little cheap. Later the broker comes in with a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to $68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker his commission. The above scenario may vary but the game remains the same. I hope that other people will validate or disagree with the above. "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:110Lf.9260$lR2.8559@trndny01... MMC,,, in my humble opinion, boat brokers are totally worthless. They get in the way. For example. A broker will tell you that the owner is anxious to sell, so off you go on a 400 miles trip to see a boat. When you get to the boat, you realize the boat has problems. Either the engine is bad, rigging needs replacing, sails are no good, whatever. Your not upset because of the "anxious" in the broker's presentation. The next thing you do, check on costs of engine repair, price out sails, etc. Finally, you tell the broker all that you have figured out and tell him/her what you will offer. This is when the broker tells you "I spoke to the owner last week and he won't budge on the asking price". Then why the F,,, did you just drive 400 miles, what about the "anxious" part of the presentation? All bull-****. Total bull-****. This has happened to me. And it has happened on more than one occasion. It has happened with multiple brokers. After the third time, fireworks! I almost slugged the guy. I literally had to be held back. So, no more brokers. If a boat owner can't sell his/her own boat, I don't want anything to do with the boat. Period. This is my opinion. And my experience. Others may feel differently. TW "MMC" wrote in message ... I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
I agree with you one hundred percent. The thing to do; make an offer ..
and only one offer. Make the offer you feel is what the boat is worth. Period. Tell the broker [ remember, I don't deal with brokers so in my case it is the owner ], that this is the offer. No wiggle room ... the only negotiation is in such things as marina charges, engine check out, that kind of stuff. Be prepared for a big loud NO THANKS. This is the owners boat. If he/she doesn't want to sell it to you, that is life. Don't be a jerk. Don't try to steal a boat. Make an offer based on what you feel is fair for you. Maybe you are not going to be successful. Oh well. The best boat I ever owned was purchased just this way. I made my offer. The owner started to counter and I stopped him. I politely said " this is my offer, my one and only offer and I do not want to get into a negotiation ". The owner said NO THANKS. We shook hands. I thanked him for showing me the boat. And left. Two days later, he called. He said that although my offer was lower than he wanted, he was impressed with my stedfastness. He asked if I could close quickly. I said yes, met him a couple of days later and we have remained friends. If a broker was involved, my offer would probably never have been delivered to the owner. I would have to put up with lies, deceit, the "I'll get back to you" message. No thanks. Life is too short for this crap. Recently I bumped into a broker who I knew from years ago. She is a total thief. A lying crook. I must say I took great pleasure telling her what a loathsome human being she is. Her face got all red. As I left I asked "are you still lying and cheating people"? As someone has said "payback is a bitch". wrote in message ... I do not feel differently. Same thing happened to me. Another classic is the offer scenario. The following technique works wells. A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult the seller/broker. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer is too low and make you feel a little cheap. Later the broker comes in with a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to $68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker his commission. The above scenario may vary but the game remains the same. I hope that other people will validate or disagree with the above. "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:110Lf.9260$lR2.8559@trndny01... MMC,,, in my humble opinion, boat brokers are totally worthless. They get in the way. For example. A broker will tell you that the owner is anxious to sell, so off you go on a 400 miles trip to see a boat. When you get to the boat, you realize the boat has problems. Either the engine is bad, rigging needs replacing, sails are no good, whatever. Your not upset because of the "anxious" in the broker's presentation. The next thing you do, check on costs of engine repair, price out sails, etc. Finally, you tell the broker all that you have figured out and tell him/her what you will offer. This is when the broker tells you "I spoke to the owner last week and he won't budge on the asking price". Then why the F,,, did you just drive 400 miles, what about the "anxious" part of the presentation? All bull-****. Total bull-****. This has happened to me. And it has happened on more than one occasion. It has happened with multiple brokers. After the third time, fireworks! I almost slugged the guy. I literally had to be held back. So, no more brokers. If a boat owner can't sell his/her own boat, I don't want anything to do with the boat. Period. This is my opinion. And my experience. Others may feel differently. TW "MMC" wrote in message ... I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:29:49 GMT, wrote:
You know he is way out to lunch. You like the boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult the seller/broker. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer is too low and make you feel a little cheap. My employer once sent me to an expensive class on negotiating. There are 3 points that still stand out for me after 20 years. First, NEVER be embarassed by your offer. It's business, not personal, and the economic value of a thing is what that thing will sell for, not what the seller wants. Second, if 2 people are negotiating and one of them is under a deadline (even a self-imposed one), that person will almost always lose, all other things being equal. Finally, as long as you are willing to walk away from the deal, you keep your power. Other than that, it comes down to knowing the market.. __________________________________________________ __________ Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious. Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/ |
Boat Broker Question ...
Don't be afraid to insult the broker.
wrote in message ... I do not feel differently. Same thing happened to me. Another classic is the offer scenario. The following technique works wells. A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult the seller/broker. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer is too low and make you feel a little cheap. Later the broker comes in with a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to $68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker his commission. The above scenario may vary but the game remains the same. I hope that other people will validate or disagree with the above. "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:110Lf.9260$lR2.8559@trndny01... MMC,,, in my humble opinion, boat brokers are totally worthless. They get in the way. For example. A broker will tell you that the owner is anxious to sell, so off you go on a 400 miles trip to see a boat. When you get to the boat, you realize the boat has problems. Either the engine is bad, rigging needs replacing, sails are no good, whatever. Your not upset because of the "anxious" in the broker's presentation. The next thing you do, check on costs of engine repair, price out sails, etc. Finally, you tell the broker all that you have figured out and tell him/her what you will offer. This is when the broker tells you "I spoke to the owner last week and he won't budge on the asking price". Then why the F,,, did you just drive 400 miles, what about the "anxious" part of the presentation? All bull-****. Total bull-****. This has happened to me. And it has happened on more than one occasion. It has happened with multiple brokers. After the third time, fireworks! I almost slugged the guy. I literally had to be held back. So, no more brokers. If a boat owner can't sell his/her own boat, I don't want anything to do with the boat. Period. This is my opinion. And my experience. Others may feel differently. TW "MMC" wrote in message ... I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
|
Boat Broker Question ...
"Don't be afraid to insult the broker" ??? As if there isn't ENOUGH
incivility in our weary land. I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree with your advice more. Decency and courtesy is always in order. Even if you feel the other guy doesn't deserve it. "Tom R." wrote in message . .. Don't be afraid to insult the broker. wrote in message ... I do not feel differently. Same thing happened to me. Another classic is the offer scenario. The following technique works wells. A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult the seller/broker. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer is too low and make you feel a little cheap. Later the broker comes in with a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to $68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker his commission. The above scenario may vary but the game remains the same. I hope that other people will validate or disagree with the above. "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:110Lf.9260$lR2.8559@trndny01... MMC,,, in my humble opinion, boat brokers are totally worthless. They get in the way. For example. A broker will tell you that the owner is anxious to sell, so off you go on a 400 miles trip to see a boat. When you get to the boat, you realize the boat has problems. Either the engine is bad, rigging needs replacing, sails are no good, whatever. Your not upset because of the "anxious" in the broker's presentation. The next thing you do, check on costs of engine repair, price out sails, etc. Finally, you tell the broker all that you have figured out and tell him/her what you will offer. This is when the broker tells you "I spoke to the owner last week and he won't budge on the asking price". Then why the F,,, did you just drive 400 miles, what about the "anxious" part of the presentation? All bull-****. Total bull-****. This has happened to me. And it has happened on more than one occasion. It has happened with multiple brokers. After the third time, fireworks! I almost slugged the guy. I literally had to be held back. So, no more brokers. If a boat owner can't sell his/her own boat, I don't want anything to do with the boat. Period. This is my opinion. And my experience. Others may feel differently. TW "MMC" wrote in message ... I'd like to add that you should get a survey before leaving a deposit, even though you may be pushed by a broker to "move fast". We found a boat we really liked and fell for the "got 2 other people interested" bull**** from the broker and left our 10%. Live and learn. (A great thing about surveyors is that they give you the news, good or bad, whereas we might overlook too many "little things" because we are already (in our minds) sailing the deep blue on our beautiful boat!) After many problems were identified by the surveyor, we pulled our offer the day before the deadline. The broker informed us he was holding our deposit as the seller was considering legal actions, even though our retraction of our offer had been in compliance with the contract. I visited the broker in his office with his boss present and explained that my next stop was to my lawyer's office and the broker's boss would be sitting in the defendants seat WHEN we went to court. The boss stumbled all over hisself returning my deposit. Not all brokers are honest, some just seem to be stupid. MMC "Jeff" wrote in message ... Thomas Wentworth wrote: Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat. You should ask the folks on alt.sailing.asa what they think of their resident "broker" capt rob. Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars. Surveys are required, period. You might even plan on rejecting a few boats after survey, depending on what you're after. I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest bunch. real estate, cars, yachts ... they're all the same profession. Most are honest, but their job is to figure out how much you have in your pocket and make sure you leave 99% behind and walk out thinking you got a bargain. Its your job to know what you want. What are your thoughts. Jasper |
Boat Broker Question ...
Dave,,, save it ...
The coop boards? Give it a rest. Most of us live in the "real world". "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 01:46:38 GMT, Gary said: I guess there is a requirement if you know nothing about what you are looking for. For example, if I was moving to some city I had never visited and needed a place to live. But if I'm moving down the street or to a small town then what does the agent do? Can't speak to down the street or small town, but if you're buying a NYC coop, having a good broker may mean the difference between getting the apartment and getting turned down repeatedly by the coop boards. Similarly, if you're selling it may mean the difference between picking a buyer who will pass the board and wasting months floundering with buyers who will never qualify. |
Boat Broker Question ...
That sums it up.....
Thomas Wentworth wrote: Dave,,, save it ... The coop boards? Give it a rest. Most of us live in the "real world". "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 01:46:38 GMT, Gary said: I guess there is a requirement if you know nothing about what you are looking for. For example, if I was moving to some city I had never visited and needed a place to live. But if I'm moving down the street or to a small town then what does the agent do? Can't speak to down the street or small town, but if you're buying a NYC coop, having a good broker may mean the difference between getting the apartment and getting turned down repeatedly by the coop boards. Similarly, if you're selling it may mean the difference between picking a buyer who will pass the board and wasting months floundering with buyers who will never qualify. |
Boat Broker Question ...
Dave wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 03:03:36 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" said: Dave,,, save it ... The coop boards? Give it a rest. Most of us live in the "real world". Unfortunately, that sort of statement most often means only that your particular slice of reality is somewhat limited. Or yours. Do you think "coop boards" exist everywhere? This is maybe an isolated example of where an agent might actually do something. Not the norm. The real world. |
Boat Broker Question ...
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:29:49 GMT, wrote:
I do not feel differently. Same thing happened to me. Another classic is the offer scenario. The following technique works wells. A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult the seller/broker. I don't give a damn about insulting the seller/broker. I dealt privately with a guy who went from $31K to $23K over a beer. I offered $19K. He looked shocked, because 12 years back, he had paid $35K or something. I said: "That was the eighties, this is 1999 and the boat is tired and survey says X, Y and Z need immediate attention" We agreed much closer to my price than to his. I've spent about $10K on the boat. If I get $28-30K, I'll be quite fortunate. But the boat is 33 this year, and even though structurally and functionally it's arguably "better than factory", it's unfashionable and cosmetically compromised G. C'est la vie. It sails great. Sellers have to get real that not everyone finds their "wives" irresistable. I am currently looking at more than one steel cruiser in the Great Lakes, most of which need finishing. What "you paid for cool stuff" is frankly irrelevant to me as a buyer. I am aware it's a small pond in terms of brutal steel ketches. It's more like "sell it or don't". 95% of people will get a used C&C or J/Boat or a new Beneteau/Hunter/Catalina. It's the way of things. Your very capable offshore tank ain't going to command a premium here. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer is too low and make you feel a little cheap. Sod it. Immediately look him in the eye, tell him your offer is now $59,000 and will drop by $1,000/minute for every minute he blocks your sea trial. Tell him it's the fine old tradition of capitalism, and reach for the doorknob. Later the broker comes in with a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to $68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker his commission. ********. Brokers can be a great help and can really facilitate a sale, but at times they have the function and utility of crack ho pimps. It's clear early on which type you have in hand, and whether or not you need to put your wallet back and walk on. There's always another stroll. R. |
Boat Broker Question ...
I've talk to 10-15 brokers when looking for my boat, I didn't have any
of these problems, I was able to eliminate the bad ones either by looking at their listing or by talking to them on the phone: 1. If price is way too high, don't bother. 2. If the broker doesn't return your phone calls or emails, don't bother 3. If the brokerage has more than 6 salesmen, don't bother 4. If you've done your research, and you should have, and realize the broker doesn't really know the boat he is selling, don't bother. 5. Don't bring you checkbook on the 1st visit, then you won't be tempted to buy before giving it some thought. 6. Don't look for boats in the spring, look at them in in Nov/Dec, if they haven't sold for a season they are more likely to come down in price. I did have 1 broker (after to looking at the boat for an hour) tell me get got a call with an full-price offer over the phone, I told him I can't beat that and walked out. He is just doing his job, try to get the max. $ for his client, don't take it personal, just turn around and walk out. |
Boat Broker Question ...
Dave wrote:
On 23 Feb 2006 03:52:55 -0800, "tom" said: He is just doing his job, try to get the max. $ for his client, don't take it personal, Good advice, except for the bit about max $. The broker's primary interest is in getting the deal done, regardless of whether his client gets a high or low price. If he sells the boat, he gets a percentage. If he doesn't sell the boat he gets nothing. He'd always prefer getting paid based on a percentage of 60% of asking to not getting paid at all. So while he's got no interest in telling you something that will break the deal, he also has no interest in telling his client to walk unless he really believes the offer is less that what he can sell the boat for. No kidding. On a 100K deal, he is getting 10%, and may have to split 1/2 with a buyer's broker. That leaves him 5K. And he may have to give up some of that with the brokerage company he works for. Say he nets 4K on a $100K deal. Now say you're trying to buy the boat for $90K. That's only $400 difference to mr. broker vs the $100K sale. Think he's trying to get the max $ for his client or just close the deal? Evan Gatehouse |
Boat Broker Question ...
I talked to a friend who owned a brokerage for 15 years. He says the best
by far method of buying is to give a written offer you want to pay contingent on a survey and with a set time limit (10 days) and walk out the door. No haggling, no b.s. If the owner is anxious, he'll think it over a few days and either accept or make a counter offer. If you get a counter offer, wait several days (make him sweat) and either counter the counter or walk. If it 's a slow time of year, the broker will often pressure the seller just so he gets his commission, Gordon "Dave" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:03:36 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" said: Evan,,, for answering the phone and making a couple of calls? You are going to pay some jamooka $10,000? Fer chrisakes, give it a little thought before posting such blather. It's the nature of the business that the seller pays a commission on only the sale that's made, and pays nothing on all of the showings, phone calls, checking actual sales of comparables, etc. to people that don't ultimately buy the boat. I know of very few boat brokers who are rich. And I'd guess that if I divided the commission paid when I bought a boat by the number of hours various broker spent with me in the process of looking, that hourly rate would look downright cheap. Same thing with real estate brokers. I was remarking to my wife this morning that one reason people hate both brokers and contingency fee lawyers is that they only see the amount of the fee on their particular case or purchase, and are blind to the efforts that result in nothing. (And BTW, I'm no fan of contingency fee lawyers, but for other reasons.) |
Boat Broker Question ...
Gordon makes sense to me... he is saying not to sit in the broker's office
and go back and forth on the price. This reminds me of my last visit to a used car dealership... and that was years ago. First; I look at car. Second; take the car for ride with used car dealer in car. Third; we get back and go into the used car dealer's office. I make an offer. Forth; the used car salesman says "wait, while I go talk to the boss". Five: I tell him if he must talk to the boss, why am I wasting my time talking to him and then I get up and walk in the boss's office and ask why the dealership is wasting my time. The boss gets all defensive, the salesman acts like a moron and I tell them both to go F off. That was my last visit to a car dealership; ever. And I have bought and sold lots of cars and trucks sense then. ================================================== ======================= "Dave" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 13:43:31 -0800, "Gordon" said: I talked to a friend who owned a brokerage for 15 years. He says the best by far method of buying is to give a written offer you want to pay contingent on a survey and with a set time limit (10 days) and walk out the door. No haggling, no b.s. If the owner is anxious, he'll think it over a few days and either accept or make a counter offer. If you get a counter offer, wait several days (make him sweat) and either counter the counter or walk. I trust readers realize that your first paragraph and your second totally contradict one another. |
Boat Broker Question ...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Gordon makes sense to me... he is saying not to sit in the broker's office and go back and forth on the price. This reminds me of my last visit to a used car dealership... and that was years ago. First; I look at car. Second; take the car for ride with used car dealer in car. Third; we get back and go into the used car dealer's office. I make an offer. Forth; the used car salesman says "wait, while I go talk to the boss". Five: I tell him if he must talk to the boss, why am I wasting my time talking to him and then I get up and walk in the boss's office and ask why the dealership is wasting my time. The boss gets all defensive, the salesman acts like a moron and I tell them both to go F off. That was my last visit to a car dealership; ever. And I have bought and sold lots of cars and trucks sense then. ================================================== ======================= "Dave" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 13:43:31 -0800, "Gordon" said: I talked to a friend who owned a brokerage for 15 years. He says the best by far method of buying is to give a written offer you want to pay contingent on a survey and with a set time limit (10 days) and walk out the door. No haggling, no b.s. If the owner is anxious, he'll think it over a few days and either accept or make a counter offer. If you get a counter offer, wait several days (make him sweat) and either counter the counter or walk. I trust readers realize that your first paragraph and your second totally contradict one another. sense Noun sense (Plural: senses) # ability to be understood You don't make any sense. since Preposition since 1. from (time) |
Boat Broker Question ...
Dave wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 01:01:40 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" said: Gordon makes sense to me... he is saying not to sit in the broker's office and go back and forth on the price. Hmm. Hadn't occurred to me that anyone would do that. However, as I think about it, that's how multimillion dollar business deals get done. The difference is, I suppose, that in business deals each side has given a lot of advance thought and analysis to how high or low it's willing to go. i agree that's the way to do it if you can. search the MLS (if it's real estate, boats.com or something for boats) and go and look at a few properties, then pick out the ones you think are reasonable, decide what you're willing to pay for each one, then get the various seller's brokers involved to take you to see the properties on the inside. then just make an offer on one, whatever you think it's worth to you with a time limit so you can move on to the next one. if they don't like it, make an offer on the next one. someone will sell at your price, eventually. the seller's asking price doesn't even matter. getting your price is just a matter of time and effort to find the right seller, sometimes it takes a while to track down who it is, and you can't get your heart set on any particular one. with boats i would assume this is even more true since they are just sitting there costing money every day they aren't sold. it's not like a piece of real estate where you can rent it out, or drop a few cows on it to graze to cover your costs. i would imagine sellers just want to stop the bleeding at some point and get rid of the damn thing. this might sound funny, but i think you can get a lot of important perspective out of thinking about all property as if it were a mundane depreciating asset ... such a potato, then suddenly a lot of things that sellers & brokers/agents say becomes much more amusing and entertaining. - we've got two other people looking at this potato, they seem serious about it - the owner has taken really good care of this potato - i know the price of this potato seems high, but just look how well it's been maintained - this potato has been in the family for generations - the seller built this potato with his own two hands! - no matter how much you look, you'll never find another potato like this potato - i don't care what the appraiser says potatoes are worth, this one is special - this potato is such a good deal it's going to go fast, you need to make an offer now! - here, have a seat, can't you just picture yourself owning this potato |
Boat Broker Question ...
tom wrote:
I've talk to 10-15 brokers when looking for my boat Same here. .... I didn't have any of these problems, I was able to eliminate the bad ones either by looking at their listing or by talking to them on the phone: 1. If price is way too high, don't bother. 2. If the broker doesn't return your phone calls or emails, don't bother 3. If the brokerage has more than 6 salesmen, don't bother 4. If you've done your research, and you should have, and realize the broker doesn't really know the boat he is selling, don't bother. You can go too far on this one. Expecting a broker to know all about every boat he might ever possibly sell is like expecting the cashier to know all the technical specs about every item in the store. IF the broker can hold an intelligent discussion on technical aspects of boats & boating in general, without bull****ting, that's about as much as you can realistically ask for. 5. Don't bring you checkbook on the 1st visit, then you won't be tempted to buy before giving it some thought. 6. Don't look for boats in the spring, look at them in in Nov/Dec, if they haven't sold for a season they are more likely to come down in price. I did have 1 broker (after to looking at the boat for an hour) tell me get got a call with an full-price offer over the phone, I told him I can't beat that and walked out. He is just doing his job, try to get the max. $ for his client, don't take it personal, just turn around and walk out. Or just shurg and say, "I'll call you next week." He may be just pulling a sales trick, or he may be telling the truth... in either event, if the boat is worth negotiating for, and you're not falling for a line, why just drop the possibility? There are a LOT of boats for sale out there, but the reality is that there are few good ones. It is a labor intensive process to find one & open negotiations, don't throw that away because the salesman has an attack of bad breath. Glen's post on the 3 cardinal rules of negotiating is also very good. 1- *any* offer is better than no offer, so go ahead and make one. It is the brokers business to present them to the owner/seller. 2- No time pressure. Why are you in a hurry? It is much better to get the right deal on the right boat than to spend too much on the wrong boat. And in any negotiation gamesmanship, the side that has a deadline has one more way to lose. 3- Be able to walk away. If you start getting the idea that you *must* have a boat, or even *must* have **THIS**, then you need a shrink not a boat. Remember the fine line between "hobby" and "unhealthy obsession." And do your homework! You should know the general info on the boat(s) you're interested, which ones are for sale & asking how much, and maybe even ask around sailing clubs in the area to get some history on a particular boat. I could spend a lot of time reminiscing about how we came to buy our boats, which have been great for us, but I've already been typing too long. Coffee's cold! Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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