Absolute must read!
 

Larry had this link buried down in a reply to a long thread. It's one
of the most disturbing things I've read about boats in a long time.
It deserves much wider exposure.

http://yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

Boy, do I love my 1980 Endeavor 32 with 3/4 inches of solid glass
between me and the ocean. I cut some holes for new through hulls and
there is enough glass in there to build about ten boats today.

--

Roger Long

Absolute must read!
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:48:05 GMT, Mys Terry
wrote:

That website is old news, and many have written extensively on why it
is really one man's self serving and less than honest rant.

You're entitled to your opinion of course but the description of
"modern" boat building methods is quite accurate and the pictures
speak for themselves.

Pascoe may be opinionated and outspoken but he is also a well
respected marine professional with a great deal of experience.

Even with sailboats, the older cored hull boats ( 10 years), have an
abysmal record of durability. Case in point: Twenty years ago the
J-35 was an incredibly popular boat. Take a look around now at how
many are still sailing. My guess is that the insurance companies have
cracked down and are refusing to repair or take them on. Major core
repairs typically cost more than the market value of the boat and the
whole thing ends up in a dumpster.

Absolute must read!
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:56:22 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Larry had this link buried down in a reply to a long thread. It's one
of the most disturbing things I've read about boats in a long time.
It deserves much wider exposure.

http://yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

Boy, do I love my 1980 Endeavor 32 with 3/4 inches of solid glass
between me and the ocean. I cut some holes for new through hulls and
there is enough glass in there to build about ten boats today.

This has been around for a few years, Roger, and I am quite skeptical
about certain building techniques today also. I realize on an
intellectual level that cored hulls can be stronger and that many
things remain to be learned from Open 60s and America's Cup designs
for production boats, but when I ran aground last fall, I was damn
glad my family and I were in a 30 year old solid glass hull, 7/8"
thick at the bilges, and with freshly retabbed bulkheads and reseated
thru-hulls. We rectified the situation soon enough, but if I'd been
in, say, a Hunter 33, I would have added fear of major destruction to
what was merely a passing inconvenience.

R.

Absolute must read!
 

Hi:

Pasco: Love him or hate him? Just another opinion to consider.

Personnaly I am sitting in a 27 year old boat. It has 1 1/2" of hand
layed glass at the turn of the bilge. Its 39 LOA. That 1 1/2" came in
real handy when a Tidewater tug bounced off me two years ago. Still
have the green pant on the hull as a reminder.
The Captain was reall appolgetic. Invited me over for a tour and even
gave me a free soda. Pretty good deal. Nice guy too. Although, he
seemed a bit woried about somthing. Go figure.
Bob

Absolute must read!
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Pascoe may be opinionated and outspoken but he is also a well
respected marine professional with a great deal of experience.



I particularly respect him for his statement that they put a layer of
roving on the INSIDE to try to fool the surveyors into thinking it's real
fiberglass, then just coat the outside with gelcoat over the chopper gun
crapware the hull is made of.

I'm amazed the moguls haven't had him killed....He's gotta be costing them
big money.

I met a black worker in a little diner I like to breakfast in, here in
Charleston where many boats are made. He ran the chopper gun for several
of them over the years, gotta be the worst job in the plant. I asked him
how long the fibers were that came out of the chopper gun spraying into the
mold. He said 1/4 to 1/2" long. How in hell does that make a hull strong?

Yecch....goosebumps thinking about banging it into a bouy at 20. Someone
at CG has gotta be takin' a bribe to let this crap float in the waterways.

Absolute must read!
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:34:58 -0500, Larry wrote:

I'm amazed the moguls haven't had him killed....He's gotta be costing them
big money.

Not really. Most buyer could care less as long as the boat does what
they want it to, and most buyers have never heard of David Pascoe.
The vast majority of boats in that size range never get run in rough
water for any length of time, and the builders are counting on that.

Absolute must read!
 

Hi;
Got to agree with Wayne B. Most people just want a fun big white boat
to zoom around in. They read Sailing magazine for product advice. The
editors are profit motivated and want to sell advertising space. Next
you see beautiful pictures in the magazine with sailors who are nothing
more than models used for product placement.

I saw the same thing happen to sports SCUBA decades ago. Certifying
organizations, (PADI, SSI etc.), magazines, and equipment vendors
realized they could make more money if they all cooperated. As a
result, you have sports SCUBA instructors being told by their
certification organizations to use only the "safest equipment" possible
for their instruction. So the curriculum changed to reflect the "new
safer" technology. Only problems is that only company XX is the one
that sells the stuff. Unfortunately most people do not realize that
equipment distributors - magazines - and certifying organizations are
there for one thing...... maximize profit by cooperating together.

Apply that same model to sailing: Corporations that build boats also
own a charter operations, that also have stock in print media, that
also have agreements with equipment vendors that supply the builders at
a reduced price. So the average Joe who always wanted to go sailing now
can get a "keel boat " certification from a national sailing school,
who by the way teach that you need their certification to charter a
boat, from guess where??? Very effective marketing model.

Need to remember that competition can drive business bankrupt.
Cooperation is vastly more successful.

Very persuasive. Who wants to buy/use those old outdated designs
anyway? They are slow, old, difficult to sail, and are not safe say the
charter companies, magazines, school curricula. For example read some
of the old threads regarding double ended hulls. I agree it is very
difficult to have a grand stair case on a double ender.

Persuasion method used: inductive logic. "You can get a man to
swallow an elephant if you feed it to him one bite at a time." There
is no means of persuasion/marketing more potent than a person who
persuades their self.

Emotional appeal: Fear. You'll kill yourself or God for bd a family
member. Need to be safe so you need this safety equipment, boat,
certification etc.

Bob

Absolute must read!
 

Ya I know, whats wrong with making a profit and a good living?

Nothing. Enron had no problems with that.
I know.... the free market will supply a need if there is a
market/demand.

I guess I am gullible enough to still believe that screwing everyone
insight is not okay. So I suppose that you are the type who wants to
keep big government off my back and out of my pocket. You know.......
lets have unlimited speed limits and if some liquored up teenager slams
into my car going 104 mph I guess its my fault for being there. I guess
I just don't like corporations telling me I got one choice.... take
it or leave it. Or even more slick, teaching a generation of boaters
that 1/8" of chopped glass is an approved industry standard on a 41
foot boat.

That is why i think this discussion board is so essential. You're not
going to read comments found here in Sailing magazine or a Moorings
brochures or a Keel Boat Certification curriculum.

Still Bobing

Absolute must read!
 

In article ,
says...


On 3 Feb 2006 08:53:57 -0800, "Bob" said:

The
editors are profit motivated and want to sell advertising space.

A person in business motivated by profit? I'm shocked. Shocked.

What happened to the knight in shining armor motivated only to do good
deeds? And what about his sidekick riding the donkey?

He came to a bad end.

Absolute must read!
 

Hi Dave:

What makes my comments so irrational? Is it that you do not agree or
simply do not understand?

I'm just saying there are some very well organized people out there who
are doing their very best to keep you ignorant so they can make a buck.
Maybe that is not such a difficult task in your case.


Bob

Absolute must read!
 

On 3 Feb 2006 13:57:29 -0800, "Bob" wrote:

What makes my comments so irrational?

The total disconnect between your words and the proposition you think
you're advancing. Incantation of the mantra "Enron" is not an argument
It's a simple-minded rant.

Absolute must read!
 

I had a 1963 35' Chris Craft Sailyacht end up on the rocks (causeway) after
being dismasted and having the cabintop ripped off in hurricane "Floyd". The
boat had spent hours on battering against the rocks during the storm and
came away with dings and gouges, but the hull was still sound and the only
water inside was rain water.
A cored hull is stronger? I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy
either.

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi:

Pasco: Love him or hate him? Just another opinion to consider.

Personnaly I am sitting in a 27 year old boat. It has 1 1/2" of hand
layed glass at the turn of the bilge. Its 39 LOA. That 1 1/2" came in
real handy when a Tidewater tug bounced off me two years ago. Still
have the green pant on the hull as a reminder.
The Captain was reall appolgetic. Invited me over for a tour and even
gave me a free soda. Pretty good deal. Nice guy too. Although, he
seemed a bit woried about somthing. Go figure.
Bob

Absolute must read!
 

Hi There Dave;

I agree Enron is not an argument. I think it would be most accurately
called an example. Maybe even an analogy if I changed my wording a bit.
But please do not use the rhetorical trappings of Aristotelian logic
and syogistic reasoning to impress me or "defeat me with half your
brain tied behind your back" or was that "...on loan from
God...?" I am sure you, above all, should recognize the author of
that quote.

But hey, the purpose of your post was to criticize me and for you to
sound intelligent. I really like the way you knitted several words
together that "smart people" use. For example, "... total
disconnect.... Proposition... advancing.... Incantation of the
mantra... argument...." Keep practicing. You'll get better with
time.

But back to the problem. As I said before, I do not believe keeping
people ignorant to make a buck is okay. I for one hope Pascoe keeps
ranting and that this discussion board gives folks like the earlier
posts a place to call BS on the corporate boating world. And yes, a
place for you to practice sounding intelligent.
Bob

Absolute must read!
 

On 3 Feb 2006 16:12:43 -0800, "Bob" wrote:

But hey, the purpose of your post was to criticize me and for you to
sound intelligent.

Nah. It was to call attention to the mindlessness of populist rants
portraying boat owners, or any other group, as victims of some vast
conspiracy by "the corporations" to wring that evil thing "profit"
from their wallets.

Absolute must read!
 

"Bob" wrote in news:1138985637.467708.296590
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

"You can get a man to
swallow an elephant if you feed it to him one bite at a time."

I like that and so true!


Crazy Carl

Absolute must read!
 

Absolute must read!
 

" none wrote in news:VMWEf.821$VM4.339
@fe06.highwinds-media.phx:

swallow an elephant if you feed it to him one bite at a time."

I like that and so true!



They swallowed the whole 9/11 propaganda campaign. Proof positive...

They also swallowed the lie of man-on-the-moon, another total lie.

Absolute must read!
 

On 2 Feb 2006 12:46:13 -0800, "Bob" wrote:

Hi:

Pasco: Love him or hate him? Just another opinion to consider.

Personnaly I am sitting in a 27 year old boat. It has 1 1/2" of hand
layed glass at the turn of the bilge. Its 39 LOA. That 1 1/2" came in
real handy when a Tidewater tug bounced off me two years ago. Still
have the green pant on the hull as a reminder.
The Captain was reall appolgetic. Invited me over for a tour and even
gave me a free soda. Pretty good deal. Nice guy too. Although, he
seemed a bit woried about somthing. Go figure.
Bob

A master of understatement!

I had at one point a J/29 to the east, me, a Viking 33 from '73, a
Chriscraft 33 foot 1965 sailboat (yes, they made 'em), and a Hunter 33
under three years old.

Kinda like having four approaches to boating just sitting there.

The J/29 was a nice boat, all right, but seemed skittish in a strong
blow. My boat is solid glass in the hull and has a old school raked
fin keel holding about 50% of the weight. It's stiff, but fast, but
modern conveniences and even 10 feet of beam ain't happening.

The ChrisCraft is about four inches shorter LOA than me, 19,000 lbs.
(twice me) and has about 15 inches more freeboard. The mast height
looks about the same, and it has a load of painted wood below and a
center cockpit and the smallest aft cabin you could imagine. It's
comfortable for two who aren't in a hurry, and I bet it's got way over
an inch of solid glass at the bilges. I know it's a bugger for the old
feller who owns it to dock, because it turns poorly and wants to keep
going. When it was being blown into its slip, it took two on the boat
and two on dock and three tries to get it in, and this hulk had to be
fended off my boat.

The Hunter 33? It's a plastic condo with loads of fixed portlights and
hatches, the most freeboard of all of us, and a boom eight feet off
the water. I get the heebies looking at the thing, frankly, but I can
tell you that every year, there's less of what I sail and more of
them.

R.

Absolute must read!
 

It was not always so however. It used to be that there was more of
a sense of community responsibility, or public spirit or morality -call
it whatever. It was the force that said profit is ok, but putting the
guy out of business and laying off folks is not. It said that part of
the magazine can be dedicated to an ideal other than the dollar bill.

As a general example, I cite "Cruising World". In 1976, when I
startd collecting them, the magazine was practically wall to wall
cruising stories, all interesting, all written with a layer of wonder at
this fairly new occupation (cruising). It was interesting and vital.

But enter one competitor who decides to allow in 10 extra pages of
charter crap, thus helping his bottom line, and the game is on. C/W had
to follow suit to appease their bottom line. Competition sees the need
to compete with more advertising etc etc etc.

Competition takes over mindlessly, and now we have the slick and
worthless C/W.

Larry



Dave wrote:
On 3 Feb 2006 08:53:57 -0800, "Bob" said:


The
editors are profit motivated and want to sell advertising space.


A person in business motivated by profit? I'm shocked. Shocked.

What happened to the knight in shining armor motivated only to do good
deeds? And what about his sidekick riding the donkey?

Absolute must read!
 

Huh? Enron is the poster boy for Capitalism without any morality or
control. They thought they had it all and their competitors had
nothing. To further their desire to completely vanquish their
competition, they pursued every illegal activity they came across.

It's real easy to say something is a "simple minded rant" when you
really have nothing to add but next time try adding something worth the
electricity that sent your missive to us.

Larry

wrote:

On 3 Feb 2006 13:57:29 -0800, "Bob" wrote:


What makes my comments so irrational?


The total disconnect between your words and the proposition you think
you're advancing. Incantation of the mantra "Enron" is not an argument
It's a simple-minded rant.

Absolute must read!
 

"Larry DeMers" wrote in message
...
It was not always so however. It used to be that there was more of
a sense of community responsibility, or public spirit or morality -call
it whatever. It was the force that said profit is ok, but putting the
guy out of business and laying off folks is not. It said that part of
the magazine can be dedicated to an ideal other than the dollar bill.

As a general example, I cite "Cruising World". In 1976, when I
startd collecting them, the magazine was practically wall to wall
cruising stories, all interesting, all written with a layer of wonder at
this fairly new occupation (cruising). It was interesting and vital.

I used to wait for the October Boat Show issue and go through the many pages
of the new offerings. As the years went by, that section started shrinking
until now it is not there. I let my subscription run out a couple years ago
as it just became a rag of ads.

Leanne

Absolute must read!
 

Darn.........

I wish we would start talking about boats again. I like boats.
Boats are fun.
Enron is not fun.

Bob

Absolute must read!
 

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:41:10 GMT, Mys Terry
wrote:

And don't be fooled by Practical Sailor.
They are likely not nearly as pure as they would like everyone to believe.

That's no doubt true but they are the best we've got. Their achilles
heal is accepting free use of equipment for testing. They would be
much more independant if they went out and purchased it with a testing
budget. Realistic? Probably not given their limited circulation.

Absolute must read!
 

Dave wrote in news:31biu11k3nfvussd5biiladn7iloehsj0e@
4ax.com:

You really don't understand the media business model, do you.



I don't either. The lighted billboard that was in my living room has
been gone for 8 years, now. Of course, the lighted billboard is TV. Why
anyone would PAY to have cable TV spam them to death always fascinates
me. They should be paying the consumers to watch that lighted
billboard....

Want a free AM-FM radio? I've given away 8 of them, so far. I'll keep
the hand crank portable that also runs on solar panels in case there's a
national emergency.

Nielsen Rating called my cellphone, which isn't right in itself. They
wanted to know what my favorite radio station was. I told them I like
BBC-2 better than BBC-4 by a little bit. The silence on the line was
deafening until she recovered a little, then asked what LOCAL radio
station I listened to. I told her none, they were just audio billboards
and of no further use. Who the hell wants to ride around town with a car
salesman sitting next to you trying to sell you a new car all day and
Ditech.com's salesman riding behind you trying to get you into debt? How
stupid...that and listen to some idiot bitching about this or that on AM,
now....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio

I offered to pay my UK radio tax to support such fine programming, but
they declined my offer. Then, I offered to pay my UK TV taxes if they'll
put the home channels on pay for play broadband! They're thinking about
it....(c;

I don't want to watch BBC America. It's not near as good as BBC's home
channels.

Absolute must read!
 

"Bob" wrote in news:1139354946.919603.312150
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Enron is not fun.



Enron had boats, didn't they? Maybe we can buy one from the bankrupcy
judge!

No, belay that....We're not an energy company that can FEED those boats...
(c;

Raymarine's radar scanners suck.....

There. That'll make the thread go on for weeks in gang warfare...(c;

Absolute must read!
 

Mys Terry wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:11:40 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:41:10 GMT, Mys Terry
wrote:


And don't be fooled by Practical Sailor.
They are likely not nearly as pure as they would like everyone to believe.

That's no doubt true but they are the best we've got. Their achilles
heal is accepting free use of equipment for testing. They would be
much more independant if they went out and purchased it with a testing
budget. Realistic? Probably not given their limited circulation.


It's not nearly good enough. Anyone who makes a purchase decision based on PS is
making a huge mistake. I did not renew my subscription. I find their testing
methods to be entirely random, unscientific, careless and worthless. You could
easily add "dishonest" to that list. They compound that by conclusions and
recommendations that do not match the results they themselves printed. They will
fault something in one product and excuse the same fault in the one they pick as
best. They do this constantly. JUNK JOURNALISM


How about an example rather than just a rant. I find them informative
and interesting even if I don't always agree. Their assessment of my
old Ranger 26 was at odds with what I thought but I enjoyed the read.

Absolute must read!
 

In article kBbGf.461816$2k.188693@pd7tw1no,
Gary wrote:
How about an example rather than just a rant. I find them informative
and interesting even if I don't always agree. Their assessment of my
old Ranger 26 was at odds with what I thought but I enjoyed the read.

I don't think this particular sockpuppet is up for much more.

How did you like the Ranger? Anything interesting you can share would
be appreciated, since it's one of the boats we're considering for our
program.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Absolute must read!
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article kBbGf.461816$2k.188693@pd7tw1no,
Gary wrote:

How about an example rather than just a rant. I find them informative
and interesting even if I don't always agree. Their assessment of my
old Ranger 26 was at odds with what I thought but I enjoyed the read.


I don't think this particular sockpuppet is up for much more.

How did you like the Ranger? Anything interesting you can share would
be appreciated, since it's one of the boats we're considering for our
program.


Program?

Absolute must read!
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article kBbGf.461816$2k.188693@pd7tw1no,
Gary wrote:

How about an example rather than just a rant. I find them informative
and interesting even if I don't always agree. Their assessment of my
old Ranger 26 was at odds with what I thought but I enjoyed the read.


I don't think this particular sockpuppet is up for much more.

How did you like the Ranger? Anything interesting you can share would
be appreciated, since it's one of the boats we're considering for our
program.


I loved that little Ranger. I think Gary Mull was ahead of his time
when he designed it. The little beauty sailed like a charm. It was
fast and had all the tweaks that anyone could want. The trick was to
keep it flat because it wiped out pretty quick after about 15 degrees of
heel. Even I won races in it.

The interior was spartan but functional. My wife and I had many happy
cruises in it for about a week at a time. It was very robust but it did
have a bit of wet core in the deck and around the chain plates. It was
a 72 and had been raced for a long time. I owned it in 2002. The lack
of bridge deck was a concern because I once laid it right down
(spinnaker round up) and had water coming over the side and right down
into the boat.....not good.

The other issue was the sloppy rudder bearing that I kept tightening
with slices of a plastic milk carton.

I was a great boat to sail on. I loved the instant feedback whenever we
changed trim or sail shape. A great learning boat and it is a good
looking boat.

Absolute must read!
 

Nielsen Rating called my cellphone, which isn't right in itself. They
wanted to know what my favorite radio station was. I told them I like
BBC-2 better than BBC-4 by a little bit. The silence on the line was
deafening until she recovered a little, then asked what LOCAL radio
station I listened to. I told her none, they were just audio billboards
and of no further use.

Nielsen Rating called me once and wanted to know what TV programs I watched.
I said none, that I didn't have a TV. She replied that she guessed I didn't
get to voice my opinion then. I told her that I thought I had voiced my
opinion pretty well.

Now, back to the boat...

John


"Larry" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote in news:31biu11k3nfvussd5biiladn7iloehsj0e@
4ax.com:

You really don't understand the media business model, do you.



I don't either. The lighted billboard that was in my living room has
been gone for 8 years, now. Of course, the lighted billboard is TV. Why
anyone would PAY to have cable TV spam them to death always fascinates
me. They should be paying the consumers to watch that lighted
billboard....

Want a free AM-FM radio? I've given away 8 of them, so far. I'll keep
the hand crank portable that also runs on solar panels in case there's a
national emergency.

Nielsen Rating called my cellphone, which isn't right in itself. They
wanted to know what my favorite radio station was. I told them I like
BBC-2 better than BBC-4 by a little bit. The silence on the line was
deafening until she recovered a little, then asked what LOCAL radio
station I listened to. I told her none, they were just audio billboards
and of no further use. Who the hell wants to ride around town with a car
salesman sitting next to you trying to sell you a new car all day and
Ditech.com's salesman riding behind you trying to get you into debt? How
stupid...that and listen to some idiot bitching about this or that on AM,
now....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio

I offered to pay my UK radio tax to support such fine programming, but
they declined my offer. Then, I offered to pay my UK TV taxes if they'll
put the home channels on pay for play broadband! They're thinking about
it....(c;

I don't want to watch BBC America. It's not near as good as BBC's home
channels.

Absolute must read!
 

"You really don't understand the media business model, do you"

I certainly do. That is what is wrong dufus. (See, I can make it
personal also) The business model that business and corporations use now
seems to be based entirely on the greed factor. That is, simply to meet
the quarterly projection of the bottom line at all costs, whether it
involves layoffs, selling off divisions or patents or whatever the
company has that is of value, in order to keep the bottom line static.
They seem to consider that the investor should not see any negative
variation in their returns, regardless of company health or activity,
placing the load of absorbing variations in the risk of doing business
squarely on the number of employees retained at the time. Had a bad
quarter? Two? Time for a workforce reduction to "rebalance" expectations
with "reality" .

I have heard this for 30 years and been subject to the "Reduction in
Workforce" twice in that time. It sucks. Everything you were building
towards is destroyed. Families are split apart, as the layed off look
afield to find employment. People have heart attacks and commit suicide
over layoffs. It took me over a year to come to grips with the fact
that a 35 year career in Supercomputer Engineering has come to an end.
I have experience in the area of the shrinking workforce, that I hope
none of you sees or experiences.

So why don't you dry up with the one liner come backs, and explain
your position a bit?

As an example of a magazine that is written with some obvious morality
and responsibility to the reader, no cowtowing to the advertiser at all
due to the magazines policy of only allowing ads for products that will
help a boat owner repair their boat, much like CW was in the start, I
present "Good Old Boat" magazine. Seen it yet? They seem to break the
mold that you seem so proud of, and are succeeding at it, after only 5
years.

Larry DeMers

Dave wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:48:29 -0600, Larry DeMers said:


It was not always so however. It used to be that there was more of
a sense of community responsibility, or public spirit or morality -call
it whatever. It was the force that said profit is ok, but putting the
guy out of business and laying off folks is not. It said that part of
the magazine can be dedicated to an ideal other than the dollar bill.



As a general example, I cite "Cruising World". In 1976, when I
startd collecting them, the magazine was practically wall to wall
cruising stories, all interesting, all written with a layer of wonder at
this fairly new occupation (cruising). It was interesting and vital.


But enter one competitor who decides to allow in 10 extra pages of
charter crap, thus helping his bottom line, and the game is on. C/W had
to follow suit to appease their bottom line. Competition sees the need
to compete with more advertising etc etc etc.

Competition takes over mindlessly, and now we have the slick and
worthless C/W.


You really don't understand the media business model, do you.