On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse
wrote:

Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and
his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What
felony law would apply?

Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut:
You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and
the USCG qualifies as such.

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse
wrote:

Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and
his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What
felony law would apply?

Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut:
You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and
the USCG qualifies as such.


In International Waters, a UK Flagged Vessel, skippered by a UK Resident
would only have to comply with Lawfull Orders of a UK Warship, by
International Convention. However any Warship of any Flag, may ask
the UK Government for Premission to Board, thru its Ambasador to the UK,
and with a good Probubal Cause Showing, these types of requests are
routinely granted to Governments, who are contigiuous to the position
of the vessel. All of the previous, notwithstanding, the REAL Law of
the Sea is, "He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law
is at that moment in time".

I remenber back a decade or two the US and Canada were having a dispute
over Pacific Red Salmon Fishing. The Canadians decided to charge US
Flagged Fishing Vessels, transiting the Inside Passage between Washington
and Alaska a "Transit Tax", and stated that they would enforce the
collection of said "Tax" with Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels.
This would have been contrary to Ratified Treaties between the two
Countries. This so incensed the two Senators from Washington State
that "Scoop Jackson" stated on the Floor of the Senate, that if
the Canadian Government did actuall act in this manner, the US
would respond by convoying it's transiting Fishing Vessels and
escort them with a Destroyers from Bremerton Navy Yard, and if a
Candaian Coast Guard Vessel poiked it's bow over the horizion,
the Destroyer would sink that ship, faster than the blink of an eye.
That threat, ended any talk of "Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels", and
the US reimbused the collected "Tax" from fisherman, untill the
Canadians stopped collecting it and repaid the US Government for
ALL funds collected.

"He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law
is at that moment in time"

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Bruce in Alaska wrote:
the REAL Law of
the Sea is, "He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law
is at that moment in time".

I remenber back a decade or two the US and Canada were having a dispute
over Pacific Red Salmon Fishing. The Canadians decided to charge US
Flagged Fishing Vessels, transiting the Inside Passage between Washington
and Alaska a "Transit Tax", and stated that they would enforce the
collection of said "Tax" with Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels.

What a load of BS. Canadian Coast Guard vessels are not armed. They
tend buoys and do SAR. They have nothing to do with enforcing sovereignty.

This would have been contrary to Ratified Treaties between the two
Countries. This so incensed the two Senators from Washington State
that "Scoop Jackson" stated on the Floor of the Senate, that if
the Canadian Government did actuall act in this manner, the US
would respond by convoying it's transiting Fishing Vessels and
escort them with a Destroyers from Bremerton Navy Yard, and if a
Candaian Coast Guard Vessel poiked it's bow over the horizion,
the Destroyer would sink that ship, faster than the blink of an eye.

Some two bit Senator said that and the US Navy would jump? BS.
American warships aren't allowed to transit the Inside Passage without
diplomatic clearances, just like we can't go down into Puget Sound
without dip clearances. To do otherwise is an act of aggression.

That threat, ended any talk of "Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels", and
the US reimbused the collected "Tax" from fisherman, untill the
Canadians stopped collecting it and repaid the US Government for
ALL funds collected.

Like many Americans, you write your own history. As I recall the
problem was the disputed area between Canada and Alaska and the fact
that US flagged fishing boats over fishing in the disputed area. Canada
said that unless quotas were adhered to then US boats could no longer
transit the Inside Passage (Canadian waters) between the lower 48 and
Alaska. Of course we came to an amicable agreement without threats,
although the border is still disputed.

See:
http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/c..._disputes.html
For our disputed borders.

"He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law
is at that moment in time"

Bruce in alaska

Gaz in Canada

Wayne. B
Jan 29, 7:58 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising
From: Wayne.B - Find messages by this
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:58:42 -0500
Local: Sun, Jan 29 2006 7:58 pm
Subject: Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
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On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse

wrote:
Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and
his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What
felony law would apply?

Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut:
You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and
the USCG qualifies as such.

Once again Wayne B. is right on. The USCG and USN can stop anybody-
anywhere- anytime, board you and drag your sorry ass to the brig. For
the US gov there is no such thing as "international waters." They call
it Drug Enforcment.Try this: you are sitting in some SE Asian country
drinking a beer. Decide to take that cute girl up on her offer for a
lilttle suckie suckie. Problem is she is a little young. The US can and
has arrested US citizens for child rape while in another county. Do not
pass go, Do not collets $200, Go directly to jail. The US has some very
long arms.
Bob

Bob wrote:
Wayne. B
Jan 29, 7:58 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising
From: Wayne.B - Find messages by this
author
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:58:42 -0500
Local: Sun, Jan 29 2006 7:58 pm
Subject: Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse

wrote:

Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and
his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What
felony law would apply?


Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut:
You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and
the USCG qualifies as such.

Once again Wayne B. is right on. The USCG and USN can stop anybody-
anywhere- anytime, board you and drag your sorry ass to the brig. For
the US gov there is no such thing as "international waters." They call
it Drug Enforcment.Try this: you are sitting in some SE Asian country
drinking a beer. Decide to take that cute girl up on her offer for a
lilttle suckie suckie. Problem is she is a little young. The US can and
has arrested US citizens for child rape while in another county. Do not
pass go, Do not collets $200, Go directly to jail. The US has some very
long arms.
Bob


You got that right!
Some stupid young guy here in my home provinve started talking tash and
threatening George W. on the internet.
Next thing..the Secret Service called the Mounties and that kid was
rounded up and charged. Not sure if his case has come before the courts
yet.

Hello:

To bring this thread back to the start of this post................

I have met over the years people who say they have 45 years experience
and hundreds of thousands of miles under their keel. We are lead to
believe that experience and miles equals ability and knowledge.
However, I have learned that "experienced " skippers may simply
have repeated mistakes made their first year 30 times. The skipper of
the cat in his own words:

"....However, in 45 years of sailing and around 70,000 of offshore
sailing, I have never had to stop sailing because of bad weather. So it
had all been theory for me, until now...."

Sounds as though the skipper of the cat has 45 years of very limited
experiences and also learned little along the way. At least he was
honest. I was reading an interesting account of the 1979 Fastnet fiasco
a few years back. Read the quote below and ask yourself does experience
equal skill?

The following quote is from an interview with Bill Burrows, Chief
Engineer Royal Navy Lifeboat Institution. He retrieved three disabled
sailboats in a 21 hour rescue during the fatal 1979 Fastnet Storm.
"... Look, you get 300 Yachats in poor weather and you're going to
have some trouble, almost certainly. But the majority of the trouble
was hysteria created by the situation and by inexperienced crews. And
that it was. They were blaming rudders and such, but none of those
rudders would have snapped if they had put drogues out and storm jibs
and run before the weather. They were under bare poles, most of them,
and they were getting up on the seas. And the seas were about 45 feet.
NOT WHAT WE AROUND HERE CALL BIG. They got up on these seas and they
were running. When the boats were starting to broach, what the helmsmen
were doing was hauling on the rudders to stop them from broaching. They
were putting too much bloody strain on the rudders, and they had to go.
Yes, I know they were racing sailors, not cruising men, but that's no
excuse. WE WENT OUT THAT NIGHT AND WE PASSED A LITTLE OLD HOOKER SORT
OF THING WITH A FAMILY OF KIDS ABOARD AND THEY WERE GOING AWAY TO
IRELAND WITH NO TROUBLE AT ALL...."

Which brings me back to the topic of FREAK waves........... Some people
actually learn something in their 45 years sailing others are only
doomed to repeat their same mistakes until they get caught. The problem
is that some skippers hide behind their "sea service" in hopes to
sound important and knowledgeable. Its not how long you do
something......Its what you learn along the way.

Bob

In article .com,
says...

Once again Wayne B. is right on. The USCG and USN can stop anybody-
anywhere- anytime, board you and drag your sorry ass to the brig. For
the US gov there is no such thing as "international waters." They call
it Drug Enforcment.

I thought we fought a war about that, in 1812.

The US may not stop a foreign flag vessel in international waters unless
it has the permission of the government whose flag it is. But like so
much else these days, that's a mere technicality to be brushed aside.
Too many governmenst routinely grant blanket authority. Can you imagine
the uproasr if Iran started stopping US flag vessels in the Persian
Gulf?

There was a case a few years back where the CG attempted to stop a
foreign flag vessel in the Gulf of Mexico. The skipper said in effect
**** you. He made it to Veracruz, Mexico, with the CG in hot pursuit and
shooting at him. There was no contraband on his ship. He was standing on
principle. Could have been a costly stand. But he was right.

"Gogarty" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
says...

Once again Wayne B. is right on. The USCG and USN can stop anybody-
anywhere- anytime, board you and drag your sorry ass to the brig. For
the US gov there is no such thing as "international waters." They call
it Drug Enforcment.

I thought we fought a war about that, in 1812.

The US may not stop a foreign flag vessel in international waters unless
it has the permission of the government whose flag it is. But like so
much else these days, that's a mere technicality to be brushed aside.
Too many governmenst routinely grant blanket authority. Can you imagine
the uproasr if Iran started stopping US flag vessels in the Persian
Gulf?

There was a case a few years back where the CG attempted to stop a
foreign flag vessel in the Gulf of Mexico. The skipper said in effect
**** you. He made it to Veracruz, Mexico, with the CG in hot pursuit and
shooting at him. There was no contraband on his ship. He was standing on
principle. Could have been a costly stand. But he was right.

The CG couldn't sink him?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Gogarty wrote in news:

The US may not stop a foreign flag vessel in international waters unless
it has the permission of the government whose flag it is. But like so
much else these days, that's a mere technicality to be brushed aside.
Too many governmenst routinely grant blanket authority. Can you imagine
the uproasr if Iran started stopping US flag vessels in the Persian
Gulf?


EG First you'd have to find a vessel (other than Navy) in the Persian
Gulf with a US flag, then you'd have to find one that wasn't under US
government charter.

In article .com,
"Bob" wrote:

Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut:
You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and
the USCG qualifies as such.

Well now, the above is not exactly true.

For US Flagged and Documented Vessels, the USCG, US Marshals, and the
US Navy, if at sea are the only people that can board, without the
Captain's Permission.
Local LEO's sometimes try to extend their Jurasdiction to Documented
Vessels, and have done so in US Waters, only to have any evidence seized
thrown out of Court for Illeagal Search. Having been a Federal Agent,
with Enforcement Powers, I still had to go find a US Marshal, or Coastie,
to board a US Flagged and Documented Vessel, against the Captains wishes.
I have had to do this numerious times, and the proceedure was always the
same. Usually it has been something simple, but on one occasion a
collegue had to go find a local Coastie to accompany him back to so
a SixPack Inspection on a local Charter Vessel, where boarding was
denied by the Skipper. I stood watch while the USCG was rounded up, and
they actually came in force, armed, with a CPO in charge of the detail.
We conducted our inspection, found numerious violations and PickSlipped
the Vessel, but the CPO looked in the bildge, found a pile of Dope,
and hauled the skipper and Mate off in cuffs. I was called as a witness,
to document the timeline of the observation of the vessel in question,
and the skipper was convicted, and the Mate as well. Ever wonder why
it is the US Marshals that conduct sales of documented vessels that are
siezed in US Waters, and it is the Marshals that do the siezing?

Maritime Law is different that any other LAW, and it has different
requirements than normal shoreside Law.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @